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  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from LeviatanCL »
    Quote from cbgirardo »
    The new Infect can't beat Chalice on 1 + Angel postboard, or Angel alone preboard.

    Burn often has Bump in the Night which cruises by Iona, plus whatever creatures they have out. A creature-heavy draw crushes the t4 Iona.


    most of the burn version dont run black.

    but yeah, burn pretty much kill the gifts player before he cast iona, and a lot of burn players (myself included) are playing either GV hate or path to exile in SB (or both), so if your game is on iona alone, i think the burn player has the edge (at least post board)
    I don't see burn running bump anymore...

    The post board has 3-4 Layline and you go from 1 maindeck timely reinforcemnts to 2-3. Control decks like UW Tron, UW, UWR control has no business losing to burn post board.
    Baring some nut draw the burn deck usually fishbowls for a T4 kill doesn't it? again If you are taking no pain from lands how do you beat what would be a T4 Iona.

    I mean if the burn deck is on the play and has the NUT I don't think any deck is beating them perhaps martyr proclamation control of some kind haha what percent of the meta game is that? (Anyways this is off topic if you'd like to discus this more jump into the UW Tron thread or the Burn thread.)

    Curious the Loam deck match up I would imagine is quite bad as well as dealing with Liliana, Pithing Needle was for a while a premier sideboard card in MANY decks why has it more or less disappear along with trinket mage?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] UW Tron
    The last 3 PTQ's I've gone to have had between 180-300 players in the Seattle area.

    I was considering the trinket mage as being part of the main deck as it fetches map and perhaps a 1 of engineered explosives and acts as a 2/2 body. Elixir of Immortality might not also be the most irreverent sideboard action verse burn. Somewhat similar to the mono Blue running treasure mage and simulacrum. Having 2-3 pithing in the board (it answers WAY more then liliana can name tectonic edge or name either pestermite or deceiver or ravigor or plating or any of the bloom utility lands that like Slayers' Stronghold). I mean the card was very heavily used when modern first came out and I'm somewhat shocked it's use has faded as of late. Also since I'm going for slaver lock it allows me to name ooze. (Again I'm returing from having not played beyond kitchen table in about two years.)

    I saw you've done the math on leyline and the likeliness of drawing one in an opener and have discussed how you mulligan for them aggressively in some match ups, however your math was wrong it was the likelihood of drawing only 1 specifically in the starting 7. I'm curious how having the numbers change with x >=1 changes the math as having somewhere around 40% chance in starting 7 then a 35% in 6 and so (numbers are just being pulled out of my backside) is still something like 58% chance with first mulligan and . I just feel that sideboard slots are VERY VERY important for UW Tron.

    I'm thinking something along these lines



    I am aware this is 61 cards but given the tutoring ability it seems appropriate mostly because of how gifts works you want / need the additional target/targets.
    I also kind of want to try and fit an Ethersworn Canonist or perhaps a 2nd Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the board. I could also see a 2nd Timely in the board (god I HATE losing to burn)

    Your honest opinion is that pithing needle doesn't do enough in the current meta though?
    Let us know how the BGx testing goes, best of luck and hopefully we can get UW Tron into at least T2
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] UW Tron
    Quote from darksteel88 »

    For starters, I'm not sure if running Mindslaver is better than Emrakul. You make tradeoffs in each scenario that you have to live with. With Emrakul you beat all the control decks because they simply have no answer to something uncounterable. It's also worse against Twin because they can tap it down quite easily and not get hit. It's also much less interactive since it only does anything at 15 mana. Mindslaver can be cast at 6 and activated the next turn, or simply cast and activated for 10. It also does things before you win, as often you can win simply from screwing an opponent on their turn. With Mindslaver you also get to run Crucible which is really great when people are playing 4 Fulminator Mages. And at the same token, you lose to their Scavenging Ooze exiling it from your graveyard. It's actually relatively good at avoiding Ooze since you can wait for their trigger most of the time and do it in response. They get forced to do it on your turn, at which point you put it on top in response. If they let it go to their turn, well, you can always put it on top any time before your draw step to draw it.

    If I had to pick right now, I'd probably say Mindslaver is better. I think it's better against decks like Burn in the MB than Emrakul is, by a significant margin. I also think being forced to play Crucible is good in a meta where the most popular deck is boarding in 4 Fulminator Mages.

    As far as the list runs, I'd take the last one I posted and go:
    Emrakul -> Mindslaver
    Eye of Ugin, Seachrome Coast -> Academy Ruins
    One of Snapcaster, Wurmcoil, Repeal -> Crucible
    Explosives becomes probably one of the other two cards left to choose, or maybe a sideboard card. Normally I would replace Timely with Explosives but in this meta, Timely is really good.
    Thanks, for you feedback. Problem with ooze I found the last time I was running tron was that they could leave GG up and there was no way to go off from there. It felt really bad in theory. I'll have to test perhaps mindslaver game one and siding it out afterwards. Has Ugin really improved the BGx match up as you expected? When all the loam and jund / junk decks where really popular before the total dominace of pod I was running 3 lay line out of the board and 2-3 pithing needle along with a 1 of trinket mage main, since we are a little soft to Liliana and tectonic edge do you think this is a good rout to go?

    I live in the seattle area and I expect junk, twin, and the bloom deck to be a larger portion of the meta (30-40%). I expect burn to be less popular then it honestly should be but still around (8-11%). The rest of the field will be very diverse there use to be between 2-8 GR tron players at every PTQ but thats only like 1-4% of the field. I've been out of the game for a while finished school and working etc. Curious if UW Tron really has what it takes to Top 8 or if one is better off going with just UW control or something else. I have the means to play just about any deck just always had a lot of fun playing tron. I am also with you in believing that UW tron is stronger then MonoU despite MonoU performing better I believe that has more to do with the relative cost of the decks and how many players play them and I've never had interest in playing RG.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Double post sorry.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Quote from Elminster »
    I am trying a single sun titan for kicks and 2 mainboard vendillion cliques and 1 vendilion clique in the sideboard. I only ever ran 2 wall of omens, 4 restoration angels and finks/scmages. I did opt for 2 cryptic commands as 4 was too many, and I always had 1 spninx's rev and 1 Gideon Jura. I am debating adding black before just for lingering souls but I am still unsure. VClique recursion is well, sick.


    I don't really see the a lot of value in having 4 finks I only really want them against Zoo and Burn. When playing against BGx I find they are outclassed very quickly and the life gain is not the most relevant there.

    I think I have to agree with you though having 2x Vendilion Clique in the main seems correct, as you said bring them back with a Titan can be very good and just flickering them to dodge removal with an Angel if you're on the beat down plan is very good.

    I think from my list it is more correct to go:

    -1 Wall of Omens
    -1 Sphinxes Revelation

    +2 Vendilion Clique

    I have a bit too much love of Cryptic Command and perhaps 4 is too many but I don't think I would run less then 3 the flexibility of the card it just too powerful.

    I don't really like the idea of splashing black for Lingering Souls part of the strength of the mana base is it allows for 4 tectonic edges (I honestly want to get greedy and perhaps run mutavault as a 2 of but think better of it). Also while I have had some trouble here and there with lingering souls I think it has more to do with draws Angle and Edge should honestly match up well enough against lingering souls and township, as long as they're not running 3-4 paths.

    How has Gedion and the Titan been performing for you?

    Could I convince you to share your list?
    Quote from Petros »
    What is better in UW Control than in UWR one? Better manabase, it doesn't lose to Blood Moon... and that's all? UW has much less removal, sideboard options...
    You get to run 4x Tectonic Edge as well, but it is mostly the mana base that you play it for over UWR not taking as much pain in a Zoo and Burn heavy meta is a strong benefit. The most powerful sideboard cards are typically white at any rate.
    Quote from Petros »
    Ye, but your aggro matchups like Affinity are getting worse without Electrolyze, Helix and access to Bolt, Snapcaster, Bolt. Because of that, you've got much more problems with ending game as fast as possible, I think. Is it all worth?
    That is not really fair or true, you lose access to bolt snap bolt but you can do just as well with path against most of the aggro decks ramping them 1-2 mana will be irreverent or in BGx case where ramping them is dangerous in the early game your bolts are not doing very much in either case (finks will often do just as good a job of dealing with Liliana). Against Affinity the most important kill conditions are two mana perfect targets for spell snare and you have access to the most important sideboard hate which comes in white.

    While UW loses the ability to close games as quickly as UWR it does have the ability to grind out opponent more often and I assure you when people are taking as much damage from there lands as they are these days finks, angel and clique so a fine job of closing the games without the bold and helix back up.

    You are right some match ups suffer but others are better, it is a meta game call. There is a reason in past metables URW has shone itself to be the more dominant version. That said I would much rather be on the UW side of a mirror match.
    Quote from Valanarch »
    How do we beat Infect? It seems like it was designed specifically to beat control decks. Do we just remove their creatures and hope they don't have protection?
    Also knowing how to play around there protection is important. While most of the time we path on the opponents turn in this case you want to do so on your turn that way they don't get the benifit of +4/+4 from vines or if blessing is there protection you can hopefully spell snare to get the job done. The most dangerous spell they are packing now is become immense which can and should be remanded for value in game one.

    I don't think the match up is as THAT bad. Its like 55-60% in there favor but there is still some play to be had. Game one can be rough but Infect doesn't play a very strong long game so games 2-3 are about know what kind of hands you can keep more then anything and what to mulligan.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on what kind of deck would use phyrexian etchings?
    Phyrexian Unlife might also be a card you'd be interested in since the card reads "lose life" not damage so you can run up a very high counter and then let it expire leaving you at effectively 10 life.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [Primer] UW Tron
    @Darksteal88: I have to say I like you list and have similar experience between Titan and Iona. You have said though that you run Emrakul, the Aeons Torn over Mindslaver lock because of time issues on MTGO. If time wasn't an issue then would you say the slaver lock is the stronger end game win condition to have over Emrakul? If so how would you change your deck and given that slaver lock requires academy would you then run the explosives package? I've always been worried about scavenging ooze or other graveyard hate.

    What is our game plan verse our premature brother GR Tron. I've always felt like this is an unwinable match-up.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Tell us about some of your results vs. other decks. I'm interested to hear. I like the look of your build.

    The deck has been really solid for me verse just about everything. The cards I'm having most trouble with are lingering souls with something like township back up and from time to time Lilian. I also haven't played verse BW tokens which I'd imagine will be out there. I could really see Gideon Jura doing work as a 1 of somewhere in the main and tweaking the board based on meta.

    In the main as I've said Spell Snare has done some real work for me as well as the Titan, most decks don't have a way to deal with a Titan profitably BGx usually only run 1-3 paths which the finks and angels often draw the attention of. Plays like attacking with Titan return snapecaster targeting path prevent double blocks and act as additional removal.

    The numbers on Finks / wall / snapecaster are very mutable. 4 Angles might be correct (but I'm sticking with 3 for now) flickering a finks when someone goes to path it just feels so good I could see shaving a Wall of Omens for one Angel though.

    This deck is doing something very powerful with recurring finks / snapcaster / edge that many decks can't beat if there faster starts are hampered. Remanding your own spells in a counter war verse twin for example can be very important. Path Remand Path can be a very powerful play when they go for the combo.

    As others have said I don't like my counter-spells to be dead top decks later in the game like mana leak so the 2-2 split on remand.

    One of my bigger issues is the large number of 4 drops but when they are as powerful as Cryptic Command I find it hard to cut them.

    I find the deck rewards good piloting and has reasonable match-ups verse most of the field. Both a strength and a weakness in a diverse format like modern.

    If you're expecting more control / combo players I would consider 1-3 vendilion cliques between the main and board.

    Cards from the main I could see changing are shaving a Wall or Shaving a Sphinxes' Revelation. The games I lose are because of hands / draws of all four drops and sphinxes with little to no interaction early (though these hands are rare and often a result of not taking a proper mulligan). I rarely want to see more then one wall throughout my games. The cantrip effect and how good they are very burn and Zoo is the only reason I'm willing to run 3, flickering a wall or cryptic command bounce draw a card in response to removal can often just spell end the game. They also do surprising work blocking 3/4 gofys say if they Thoughtseize T1 taking a spellsnare, you wall up and given s fetch, this leaves there gofy 1 power short of breaking though.

    The more I think about it:

    -1 Wall of Omens
    -1 Sphinxes Revelation

    +1-2 Vendilion Clique
    +0-1 Restoration Angel
    +0-1 other interactive card

    Is likely correct. I certainly think you want at least 2 Vendilion Cliques between board and main (perhaps even 3), I expect both twin and Amulet Bloom to be significantly more popular. They also have the benefit of being recurred by Titan in the end game.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from cbgirardo »
    If your plays are t1 Colonnade t2 signet t3 gifts t4 rites on iona you're probably not beating burn

    If you're on the play game one how does this no beat burn, burn usually kills on there turn 4 with a 6-9 damage push from bolt boros / charm and attacking creatures, if they can't cast any spell in there deck the 1-2 2/2 s on the board are not going to kill you when sitting at 3-5 life with a 7/7 flyer in play... (perhaps I am wrong but I've not seen burn run any path to exile main)

    If you are on the draw you can just as easily T1 Seacrome Coast path goblin guild after trigger T2 signet T3 gift T4 Rites, win game. You also have access to 2-3 timely reinforcements based on the meta you expect.

    UW tron has always had a much better match up verse burn then mono-blue. Favoring UW tron 60-70%

    I have found the UW tron board however so I hope to not derail this conversation as I said I've always enjoyed MonoU Tron just find GR or UW tron to be superior.

    My biggest fear for Tron in the current meta is the BGx decks packing some real hate post board. Mono U and UW Tron are no GR tron landing a must answer threat on T3. Where they can usually fight through 1-2 hate cards I find UW really folds over when hit by 1-2 hate cards. Perhaps this is the real strength to MonoU but I just don't see that either.

    Quote from Tupie-San »
    So I was looking at some random cards in my collection and I saw Sands of Delirium. How good is it to just mill your opponent once you have tron assembled, kind of like what nephalia drownyard used to do in standard but much more faster.
    I'm just throwing it out there especially since delve isn't a thing anymore.

    It doesn't seem good Cruise et alia might be gone but Tasiger is a new toy and savaging ooze and gofy and snapcaster and living end are still here. I think the mill plan is rather ambitious. Given people will likely have artifact hate for you. The graveyard was still very-much used before delve and it's not going to just go away in modern.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    I've had a lot of success running 1x Sun Titan main and 1x Sun Ttian in the board. They return finks, wall, snapcaster, and edge for value. If they don't have removal for it that turn, my god the game ends in more or less 1 turn.

    I also think Spell Snare is an easy x4 in the meta now. Gofy, Bob and ooze are everywhere but it also deals with edalon, boros charm, skullcrack searing blood, searing blaze, it even has value against the counters from other control decks as well as being MUCH better on the draw. The agro decks tend to have must answer two drops (ravager et alia) while BGx decks run so many high powered two drops that I want to deal with even when on the draw and I never really want to ramp them with a path early.



    I feel like my board could use some work and perhaps a change to the mana base but I really like my numbers.

    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Curious, I've stepped away from magic for a while, finished school, work etc. However, I use to play UW Tron with a gifts package. I see that UW tron is not listed under T1 or T2 it always was a bit more on the fringe, but I find it interesting that even Gifts Control has disappeared from T1 and T2, has a hoser other then Lay Line appeared?

    I always felt my Match-up as UW tron was better against Burn which seems to now be a VERY large part of the meta game.

    I live in Seattle where at the tournament scene I feel like people hope on whatever what was successful at the last PT so I expect to see twin and vigor combo as well as lots of junk.

    I've always liked the distilled feel of MonoU Tron but also couldn't help but feel I was just playing with weaker cards too often the UW verson has a consistent way to just win match ups on turn 4 if it was something you felt like you had to do Iona on red verse burn for example.
    Posted in: Control
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