With the steong blue cards coming out and being unbanned, I’m sure there’s a more blue focused build available to us now. Jace could probably replace Nahiri as a wincon in blue-based builds.
@Jenn Yeah, Bow of Nylea is really good once it’s out for a turn, but it really sucks drawing a second and doesn’t truly advance our game plan, which is why I stick to 1. It’s good to hear someone else is using it to relative success. Up until now, I was the only data point (speaking of data, I haven’t forgotten about the analysis on your wins/neutrals that I owe you).
@Cotemok Nahiri Emrakul too slow? Nahiri ults two turns after she hits and can also be a prime piece of removal for threatening creatures, enchantments, and some artifacts. And the list you posted is far more passive, running Leylines and removal in place, which leads to a slower game plan. I don’t see anything that would make it more aggressive. Also, I’d recommend replacing the Dissolves with either Supreme Will (which you have 1) or Disallow, which is more versatile.
Also, I’d change up the mana base. Cut down two or three terramorphic expanses for some more basics. Also, cut black entirely. Dismember is your only maindeck black card but you run 4 black sources and your sideboard only has 3 black cards, it really isn’t worth it.
Lastly, you cut down to 7 cascade effects instead of 8. Any reason? I see the three As Foretold, but do you expect to draw into your balances often enough for those to be justified?
AAAHHHH so much I need to catch up on! I'll start from the bottom and go up.
Kiora used to be in a few builds. I ran her when she came out. Her biggest problem is the odd cast timing. You use her mainly to fog threats, but at 4 mana, she primed for after a balance, when the threats tend to be gone. If you're going the superfriends route with Elspeth and Gideon and others, she's a good addition, but otherwise I'd only use her if I were on a budget.
Black tends to be an agreed upon weak color for our decks (as I've stated before, it's my favorite color, so this pains me deeply). If you are running black, Nihilith and Lingering Souls are must-includes. I'd also recommend looking at other powerful cards such as Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.
Also, you have three borderposts too many. Take a look at your spells and see what the best cuts are. I'd say one each mistvein, veinfire, and wildfield, but I'd play with the numbers and test what you need. Being in 5 colors severely dampens your options there.
The spoilers have a few things I'm eyeing. Blood Sun shuts down fetchlands and really is only useless against Tron. Release to the Wind has some build potential behind it, possibly exiling a creature like Goblin Darkdwellers or something to save them from a wrath. I wouldn't dig into that too much, though. Induced Amnesia makes me wish Garga hit enchantments.
I guess only Blood Sun really has potential to it, though.
Jenn's budget brew is very close to what I'd concoct.
Realm Seeker was discussed quite a bit back when it first came out. I played it for a long while. It eventually came out while I was streamlining the deck, but I may add it back in a future iteration.
Hi guys again it's me,
But what do ya think, is it possible to build it around
Blue
Red
Green
alone? So without Black and White in Budget?
No. You really need either of those colors to get a second cascade ability, otherwise the deck loses out on its title card. Neither color adds too much money to the deck if you stick to the minimum of borderposts + cascader.
One of these days, I design a budget version of the deck and post it here. I can imagine the only cards worth more than 3 dollars being Gargadon and RB.
I highly recommend not going below 3 Nahiri. If you do, just drop the Emrakul package altogether and try for a wincon that synergizes more with your build.
We are a prison deck, yes, but we aren’t the type of prison that provides a true lock. Because our primary prison mechanic is a sorcery, not a permanent or group of permanents, I believe we need to focus on one of two strategies: recursion of the prison effect or winning after the prison effect. Blood moon slows down opponents after a lock, but it doesn’t stop them. What if that moon were a wincon instead? What about matches where moon isn’t as effective? What about hand disruption matches where they start fetching basics after the first IoK/TS? In our current meta, these questions are legitimate concerns. When our opponent can win off of one mana spells like Death’s Shadow decks and burn decks or out-attrition our deck with their superior card advantage engines once they get that first island into Serum Visions, our lock is severely weakened.
Blood Moon main isn’t where we want to be. I see it as a trap. All because blue moon gets free wins off dropping it doesn’t mean it’s an insta-main in decks that run basics, otherwise you’d see burn lists mainboarding it. I understand running 2-3 in the side for those matchups, but mainboard should be focused on streamlining our main plan: restoring balance as often as possible or winning after bringing about board peace.
Besides, can’t sacrifice to Gargadon. 0/10
Sorry for the late and short replies. I tend to a busy lifestyle and only really get around to responding from my phone. Still owe Jenn a follow-up review on that data.
It’s the timing on when you want colossus that makes it not as strong in multiples. You get multiples before balncing and you clog up your hand. Get it after you balance but before you can cast them and you run the risk of them recovering. Because we’re a deck that benefits from fewer cards in hand, we need to focus more on selection of cards in hand that pushes our main game forward, and all Colossus does is win the game after we establish a position. Our other wincons push our main game. Nahiri digs/selects and removes without being a hinderance to RB and Gargo sacrifices lands and creatures.
If you feel awkward with the manabase, might I recommend trying the no-post build? It’s been a long while since someone showed up in this thread with one of those. Forbidden Orchard is a strong card in that build, iirc, and you can run normal fetches and shocks. The upsides are the more versatile board, opening up a lot of slots that artifact-based cards and posts once took. The downside is Blood Moon and the risk of not wiping an opponent’s lands. Only go for this if your meta is mostly creature based and not control and Tron fests.
Also, if you find yourself one color or untapped land behind most of the time, I don’t think a Phantasm package is for you. Sorcery speed tutor for your three drops takes up a turn and may as well be that one untapped land or sets your back an extra turn if you happen to have that one untapped land.
I was wondering, how necessary do you think the 4th Nahiri is, and would you cut one for Bow?
I'd also be really interested to know how well the two Metalwork Colossus work out for you, as I love that card more than I probably should.
I ended up buying a build of the deck (shown below and which is now shipping, woo!) and decided to go for 3 Nahiri, partially because of budget concerns.
General feedback on my build would also be awesome, and much appreciated from anyone who has the time.
I wouldn’t aay the fourth is necessary, but I really like it. Nahiri is my atrongest wincon and she has a built in removal package and doesn’t feel bad showing up in multiples. I can understand running 3, but my preference is 4. If anything, I’ll probably remove a goblin for the bow.
The colossuses work really well with my build. Running 2 feels like the max for me. I don’t like drawing him too early and he doesn’t feel strong in multiples. I could cut to 1 safely, but I think it’s too strong with borderposts to do so.
Your list is pretty cool. The two things that stand out to me are your 2-ofs in your control and spice section and your manabase. The two-ofs drop some consitency and don’t really overlap their uses. Your manabase feels iffy with shocklands and borderposts. Is there any reason you want to runs shocks and fetches?
Also, one of these days when I have time, I wanna talk about the usefulness of Blood Moon in our builds.
Posting an updated decklist real quick before a flight. Still thinking about cutting down to one Supreme Will in favor of a Bow of Nylea. Might cut something else. We’ll see.
So if you read blogatog and some of the articles on other sites Unstable is a giant hit. On sales figures alone, the 4th Unset is probably a when and not an if. Maro's mission accomplished.
I wonder however, how much of this is because of the actual silverbordered cards and how much this is because of the goodies - which in this case means the foil tokens but most importantly - the full art basics. Looking at the current prices on magiccardmarket.com, the price of an unstable booster starts at €2,15 whereas the single prices for the full art basics range from €1,60 - €2,85, which means an average of €2,23 - more than the price of a booster! So it seems that the price of a pack is roughly equivalent to the expected value of the full art basic in there (a little lower because sometimes you pull a steamflogger boss) and the rest is just the toilet paper that comes with it.
Now as someone who finds silver bordered only slightly amusing to see and would never spend any real money on it this is understandable. But if this is true then how can Unstable be considered a success?
Questions to consider: How is any set with chase cards a success? How is this different than basically any set? What about the other Un-sets that were less successful but also had goodies?
Yes, every set has chase cards, but those are actually cards of the expansion. Take the chase cards away and the next top X cards from that set will be chased after. Unstable however, like any unset, is about silver bordered goofyness, with the full art lands just being a side bonus. Yet, I feel that it is the side bonus what makes Unstable sell so well instead of the actual expansion. In other words: if Unstable did not include these lands but sales had to be based soley of the silver bordered cards, I think sales wouldn't even be half of what they are now, and probably even less than a quarter.
Well... yeah. That was the entire point of putting full art basics and the tokens in packs. They are pretty candid about that, honestly. The unsets need some level of broad appeal beyond being a casual joke set to sell well, and those two things are it (coupled with making thebdraft format functionable).
Going to be honest, I am not entirely sure what there is to argue here. Unstable was a success as it indicated people are willing to buy the product for whatever reason. They know full well that it wouldn't have sold as well as it has without the Full Arts and tokens. It is the entire point they exist in the packs.
Before Unstable's release, Mark Rosewater was all about Unstable being the testing ground if Un sets would have any merit. He was very open in that if Unstable would fail commercially, it would be the last silver bordered expansion. What I'm "arguing" is that the claim that Unstable is such a good success now is thanks to the lands and tokens, not the actual silver bordered cards. The prices seem to indicate that people generally do not adhere any value to the silver bordered cards. Which leads me to
The value of cards in a sets seems like a pretty lame and pessimistic way of determining a set's success. For someone like me, who only plays limited and cube nowadays, this set is perfect. Perhaps more importantly, everyone I drafted this set with had a good time.
The OP is complaining that no cards other than the basic lands have real monetary value, but I don't understand in what universe that could be a bad thing. MTG packs are not lottery tickets, if you're buying them to make money you're buying them for the wrong reasons.
The monetary value, being a function of supply and demand, is good proxy indicator for the general demand of the public. What the prices seem to indicate is that people are only interested in the land/token and not the rest of the pack.
Hence, it's not silver bordered that's a commercial succes, it no border.
See, the thing is, you’re summing the entire success of the unset to the secondhand market as though that is the sole reason people ever buy packs. Full art lands are still worth less than the pack. Same with full art tokens. Believe it or not, people do spend money on just having fun. I’ve already bought 5 boxes myself and many of my friends have bough several boxes themselves and not one of us bought them because the land or tokens. Those were bonuses. This is a fun draft set and people have taken notice of that.
Another huge impact is the temporary legality of the card in commander. While technically, playgroups still decide, many playgroups go by the vanilla rules, so once these cards became legal in their favorite format, it was free game.
It was a culmination of things. I’m not saying the full art land and token didn’t contribute. They most definitely did, but they weren’t the sole contributors or even the majority. Contraptions, fun draft format, wacky cards, overwhelming fun, the lack of an unset in 13 years, and the legailty in commander were all huge contributors to the success of Unstable.
has anybody here tries the non blue build?
i dont feel thee blue have much merit other than supreme will based on jenn list.
still not sold on as foretold because if you want to cast stranded restore balance in your hand there is kari zev's expertise (although it gives a creature to your opponent unless you have a suspended gargadon)
by cutting blue the cascade spells feels more streamlined because both uses R (violent outburst,demonic dread).
the bad things about the non blue is you cant dig your library as effective as supreme will, but red have collective defiance and somewhat inferior fateful showdown.
tell me what you think about the non blue version.
btw the only thing that prevented me from trying the blue version is because somehow i dont have any fieldmist borderpost or gideon of the trials
speaking of gideon of the trials i think ajani vengeant fits better on that slot, although the cannot lose emblem is somewhat enticing.
The borderpost can be replaced with a different one (I assume we're playing black if not blue), so I won't bother talking about that one.
Supreme Will: The most flexible card to remove. Removing removes one of our few ways to play to play reactively and hinders our dig potential. I don't have enough tests under my belt to say much here.
As Foretold: I believe William Shakespeare said it best when the quote "hellith noith." Put simply, this card opens up more options for us with very little cost. In addition to being able to cast our Restore Balances at no cost to us whatsoever, As Foretold stops us from being punished for going all in on a balance. Once it's down for three turns, it really comes online and lets us cast 90% of our spells. Yes, I have used this to hardcast Emrakul. Multiple times. The situation arises.
Ardent Plea: As much as As Foretold was a hell no, this one is increasingly so. If you don't have 8+ cascade spells in the deck, you're chances of winning severely decline. Plea also turns Gargadons into two turn clocks, assuming no life change by the opponent.
Now for the spells you mentioned.
Kari Zev's Expertise: This card requires us to leave something for the opponent and is a dead card against Bogles, combo, and Control matchups. I've tested all the expertises in various builds and Yahenni's was the only that came close to being playable, and it lost its shine when As Foretold was released. This card is also nearly useless if you don't have the balance in hand.
Demonic Dread: Just like Kari Zev, this is useless against Bogles, combo, and Control. This is also the only 3 mana cascade spell with useless text on it. The "cannot block" is irrelevant when we're wiping the board. The only times it would be relevant are fairly niche and involve attacking with a lethal threat into an enemy with 1 blocker and a need to win that turn.
Defiance and Showdown aren't the type of dig we want. When our goal is to keep our hand count low, those two strain our resources and force us to gamble on the luck of the draw rather than plan around our hands. They may be interesting test cards, but they are not replacement for supreme will.
Gideon isn't necessary. I don't run him. Ajani Vengeant was a staple in older lists, but slowly fell out in favor of streamlining the balances. He still sees play in non-post versions of the deck, but I don't see those too often any more. I've been tempted to build one and streamline it just to see how they play in comparison, but I just don't have the time nowadays.
Not too long ago, I debated going nonblue, myself, but it's just too important, despite the few cards in the deck that use that color. I also debated nonwhite once, but I really don't wanna lose my Nahiris. She is my favorite planeswalker, after all (lorewise; possibly cardwise, but I have difficulties choosing favorite cards).
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
This might be a terrible idea, but I'm considering cutting Mistveil Plains to test the Bow. Obviously, going down to 15 lands is risky, but I'm currently at 10 BPs. Also, the Bow fills a similar niche to Mistveil and though I was once I big supporter of it, I'm finding it's becoming more and more awkward: it comes in tapped, isn't a basic for the BPs, and I sometimes hesitate to cast Blood Moon because I want Mistveil value.
I already cut my Mistveil. It’s lost a lot of power since the deck’s inception. I vote yes. The bow is easier to cast and activate and let’s you loop RB infinitely by putting RB and cascaders on the bottom of your library. I’ve locked people out of games this way. It also lets you shoot pesky fliers, gain life when you aren’t doing anything, and turns casted Simian Spirit Guides into threats by pumping them up and making them deathtouch attackers.
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
Jenn, think you can gather data on him? Work has gotten the better of me and I’m swamped.
If anyone else wants to gather data, too, please do. Jenn has a decent chunk of pre-Jace data and I want to compare.
@Cotemok Nahiri Emrakul too slow? Nahiri ults two turns after she hits and can also be a prime piece of removal for threatening creatures, enchantments, and some artifacts. And the list you posted is far more passive, running Leylines and removal in place, which leads to a slower game plan. I don’t see anything that would make it more aggressive. Also, I’d recommend replacing the Dissolves with either Supreme Will (which you have 1) or Disallow, which is more versatile.
Also, I’d change up the mana base. Cut down two or three terramorphic expanses for some more basics. Also, cut black entirely. Dismember is your only maindeck black card but you run 4 black sources and your sideboard only has 3 black cards, it really isn’t worth it.
Lastly, you cut down to 7 cascade effects instead of 8. Any reason? I see the three As Foretold, but do you expect to draw into your balances often enough for those to be justified?
Kiora used to be in a few builds. I ran her when she came out. Her biggest problem is the odd cast timing. You use her mainly to fog threats, but at 4 mana, she primed for after a balance, when the threats tend to be gone. If you're going the superfriends route with Elspeth and Gideon and others, she's a good addition, but otherwise I'd only use her if I were on a budget.
Black tends to be an agreed upon weak color for our decks (as I've stated before, it's my favorite color, so this pains me deeply). If you are running black, Nihilith and Lingering Souls are must-includes. I'd also recommend looking at other powerful cards such as Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.
Also, you have three borderposts too many. Take a look at your spells and see what the best cuts are. I'd say one each mistvein, veinfire, and wildfield, but I'd play with the numbers and test what you need. Being in 5 colors severely dampens your options there.
The spoilers have a few things I'm eyeing. Blood Sun shuts down fetchlands and really is only useless against Tron. Release to the Wind has some build potential behind it, possibly exiling a creature like Goblin Darkdwellers or something to save them from a wrath. I wouldn't dig into that too much, though. Induced Amnesia makes me wish Garga hit enchantments.
I guess only Blood Sun really has potential to it, though.
Jenn's budget brew is very close to what I'd concoct.
No. You really need either of those colors to get a second cascade ability, otherwise the deck loses out on its title card. Neither color adds too much money to the deck if you stick to the minimum of borderposts + cascader.
One of these days, I design a budget version of the deck and post it here. I can imagine the only cards worth more than 3 dollars being Gargadon and RB.
We are a prison deck, yes, but we aren’t the type of prison that provides a true lock. Because our primary prison mechanic is a sorcery, not a permanent or group of permanents, I believe we need to focus on one of two strategies: recursion of the prison effect or winning after the prison effect. Blood moon slows down opponents after a lock, but it doesn’t stop them. What if that moon were a wincon instead? What about matches where moon isn’t as effective? What about hand disruption matches where they start fetching basics after the first IoK/TS? In our current meta, these questions are legitimate concerns. When our opponent can win off of one mana spells like Death’s Shadow decks and burn decks or out-attrition our deck with their superior card advantage engines once they get that first island into Serum Visions, our lock is severely weakened.
Blood Moon main isn’t where we want to be. I see it as a trap. All because blue moon gets free wins off dropping it doesn’t mean it’s an insta-main in decks that run basics, otherwise you’d see burn lists mainboarding it. I understand running 2-3 in the side for those matchups, but mainboard should be focused on streamlining our main plan: restoring balance as often as possible or winning after bringing about board peace.
Besides, can’t sacrifice to Gargadon. 0/10
Sorry for the late and short replies. I tend to a busy lifestyle and only really get around to responding from my phone. Still owe Jenn a follow-up review on that data.
If you feel awkward with the manabase, might I recommend trying the no-post build? It’s been a long while since someone showed up in this thread with one of those. Forbidden Orchard is a strong card in that build, iirc, and you can run normal fetches and shocks. The upsides are the more versatile board, opening up a lot of slots that artifact-based cards and posts once took. The downside is Blood Moon and the risk of not wiping an opponent’s lands. Only go for this if your meta is mostly creature based and not control and Tron fests.
Also, if you find yourself one color or untapped land behind most of the time, I don’t think a Phantasm package is for you. Sorcery speed tutor for your three drops takes up a turn and may as well be that one untapped land or sets your back an extra turn if you happen to have that one untapped land.
I wouldn’t aay the fourth is necessary, but I really like it. Nahiri is my atrongest wincon and she has a built in removal package and doesn’t feel bad showing up in multiples. I can understand running 3, but my preference is 4. If anything, I’ll probably remove a goblin for the bow.
The colossuses work really well with my build. Running 2 feels like the max for me. I don’t like drawing him too early and he doesn’t feel strong in multiples. I could cut to 1 safely, but I think it’s too strong with borderposts to do so.
Your list is pretty cool. The two things that stand out to me are your 2-ofs in your control and spice section and your manabase. The two-ofs drop some consitency and don’t really overlap their uses. Your manabase feels iffy with shocklands and borderposts. Is there any reason you want to runs shocks and fetches?
Also, one of these days when I have time, I wanna talk about the usefulness of Blood Moon in our builds.
3 Restore Balance
Planeswalker
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Instant
2 Beast Within
2 Supreme Will
4 Violent Outburst
Enchantment
4 Ardent Plea
2 As Foretold
4 Firewild Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Wildfield Borderpost
Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Metalwork Colossus
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Greater Gargadon
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
See, the thing is, you’re summing the entire success of the unset to the secondhand market as though that is the sole reason people ever buy packs. Full art lands are still worth less than the pack. Same with full art tokens. Believe it or not, people do spend money on just having fun. I’ve already bought 5 boxes myself and many of my friends have bough several boxes themselves and not one of us bought them because the land or tokens. Those were bonuses. This is a fun draft set and people have taken notice of that.
Another huge impact is the temporary legality of the card in commander. While technically, playgroups still decide, many playgroups go by the vanilla rules, so once these cards became legal in their favorite format, it was free game.
It was a culmination of things. I’m not saying the full art land and token didn’t contribute. They most definitely did, but they weren’t the sole contributors or even the majority. Contraptions, fun draft format, wacky cards, overwhelming fun, the lack of an unset in 13 years, and the legailty in commander were all huge contributors to the success of Unstable.
Nonblue means I'd lose Supreme Will, Ardent Plea, As Foretold, and Fieldmist Borderpost.
The borderpost can be replaced with a different one (I assume we're playing black if not blue), so I won't bother talking about that one.
Supreme Will: The most flexible card to remove. Removing removes one of our few ways to play to play reactively and hinders our dig potential. I don't have enough tests under my belt to say much here.
As Foretold: I believe William Shakespeare said it best when the quote "hellith noith." Put simply, this card opens up more options for us with very little cost. In addition to being able to cast our Restore Balances at no cost to us whatsoever, As Foretold stops us from being punished for going all in on a balance. Once it's down for three turns, it really comes online and lets us cast 90% of our spells. Yes, I have used this to hardcast Emrakul. Multiple times. The situation arises.
Ardent Plea: As much as As Foretold was a hell no, this one is increasingly so. If you don't have 8+ cascade spells in the deck, you're chances of winning severely decline. Plea also turns Gargadons into two turn clocks, assuming no life change by the opponent.
Now for the spells you mentioned.
Kari Zev's Expertise: This card requires us to leave something for the opponent and is a dead card against Bogles, combo, and Control matchups. I've tested all the expertises in various builds and Yahenni's was the only that came close to being playable, and it lost its shine when As Foretold was released. This card is also nearly useless if you don't have the balance in hand.
Demonic Dread: Just like Kari Zev, this is useless against Bogles, combo, and Control. This is also the only 3 mana cascade spell with useless text on it. The "cannot block" is irrelevant when we're wiping the board. The only times it would be relevant are fairly niche and involve attacking with a lethal threat into an enemy with 1 blocker and a need to win that turn.
Defiance and Showdown aren't the type of dig we want. When our goal is to keep our hand count low, those two strain our resources and force us to gamble on the luck of the draw rather than plan around our hands. They may be interesting test cards, but they are not replacement for supreme will.
Gideon isn't necessary. I don't run him. Ajani Vengeant was a staple in older lists, but slowly fell out in favor of streamlining the balances. He still sees play in non-post versions of the deck, but I don't see those too often any more. I've been tempted to build one and streamline it just to see how they play in comparison, but I just don't have the time nowadays.
Not too long ago, I debated going nonblue, myself, but it's just too important, despite the few cards in the deck that use that color. I also debated nonwhite once, but I really don't wanna lose my Nahiris. She is my favorite planeswalker, after all (lorewise; possibly cardwise, but I have difficulties choosing favorite cards).
I already cut my Mistveil. It’s lost a lot of power since the deck’s inception. I vote yes. The bow is easier to cast and activate and let’s you loop RB infinitely by putting RB and cascaders on the bottom of your library. I’ve locked people out of games this way. It also lets you shoot pesky fliers, gain life when you aren’t doing anything, and turns casted Simian Spirit Guides into threats by pumping them up and making them deathtouch attackers.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.