Yeah, "Not every Magic product is for every player" should be a mantra repeated every day, everywhere in the MtG community. Who think otherwise it's a compulsive collector, and the problem in that case it's not of WotC but exclusively of their own.
I remember back when every set/product was for every player and not pushed basic lands for $100+.
Who force you to buy basic lands for 100 dollas? Literally nobody. Is somebody stealing you something if some players want to spend 100 dollars on basic lands in order to express their personality with the cards? No. So why or what are you complaining exactly?
The same basic products available for anyone are the same since 1993 (and I would argue that we even made a huge improvement since those days since Reserved Lists cards are not even a thing anymore since Urza Saga). The only thing changed is that now, WotC can make more things for more different type of players, nothing more, nothing less. If you have a problem with that, you are a compulsive collector, and you can't blame WotC for that.
Yeah, "Not every Magic product is for every player" should be a mantra repeated every day, everywhere in the MtG community. Who think otherwise it's a compulsive collector, and the problem in that case it's not of WotC but exclusively of their own.
Repetita Iuvant. Nowhere I deny that there are no drawbacks to consider but that I literally simply said " that there are more pros and less cons than you were pointing out, nothing more, nothing less."
And I believe this close the conversation.
You're getting salty now that so many people are questioning you.
If you think that you and Grixh, which are exactly 2 persons, count as "so many" then I'm afraid you have to re-learn math again lol. (oh, btw, I received the same amount of likes when I said that Satoru kick asses, so by your own logic I can say that "so many people" agree with me )
Also, why I should be salty at all? I won lots of games on cockatrice with him and pretty happy with the results, and I'm so confident on what I'm saying that I even suggested Grix to play against me to prove that theory is a thing and practical approach another, so you really are claiming that out of literally nowhere lol
Don't project to me what are actually maybe your feelings
Satoru's abilities aren't especially difficult to evaluate,
Well that's just your subjective and questionable opinion that holds the same value as mine, that don't agree with you. Also, I can prove that even enfranchised players can still make mistake on evalutating correctly the power of spoiled cards that just in retrospective we know that are blatantly broken. Just look at the original thread of when was spoiled Jace, the Mind Sculptor one of the best PW ever. "Oh, he's just a brainstorm at 4 mana, nothing special" :D. So I definitely disagree with you. Every player have their own measure of what holds value in their heads, and what could be clearly underpowered for you, could be broken for another player and viceversa.
Having him on the battlefield a creature in hand isn't all you need. He needs to not die, either he or another creature needs to be unblocked, you need something in hand you WANT to ninjutsu in, and you need to have at least 4 mana available every time you want to do it. That's still a lot of things
Not dying and being unblocked and having a creature in hand its not that hard and its more likely than your christmasmagicland world where every players got the removal ready for him anytime. In fact you would be shocked of how many non-Cedh players just don't run many removals at all, or they simply have in hand or the right mana to cast them, and even so, I pointed out, about protecting the general, I'm the color of counterspells, even free counterspells, and thats why Satoru is a solid general in excellent colors.
I don't think Satoru bouncing himself is a practical assumption. He has no evasion and will be seen coming a mile off.
I can assure you it is practical. First of all, in a multiplayer pod it's very likely that at least 1 player doesn't have creature defense in early game since Satoru it's cheap to cast; or that even if they have creature defense, they need so much that creature alive they won't block because they can't even imagine if and what I will put with Satoru. Lastly, blue and black are literally the king colors of evasion, and stuff like Shizu, Death's Storehouse or Soaring Seacliff it's incredibly cheap and efficent way to give evasion to the general. In those days, I bounced Satoru itself on cockatrice so many, but really, so many times I need even to make in the rules section a question if his first ability trigger or not (and doesn't but its still damn good).
If you grant ir evasion that way you've effectively increased the price to 6. Not a good rate.
It's an excellent rate for mid-late game, and you will gladly pay that price, not only for the famous colossus, but for a phyrexian praetor, an archon of cruelty, a void winnover or whatever you prefer that has both pseudohaste and its uncounterable. Magic its full of fatties that are pretty much very deadly if they remain more than one turn on field.
you've effectively increased the price to 6.
Why you reply on only what is convenient for you and ignoring the rest? I literally mentioned also a 0 cmc land that trigger an uncounterable flying ability on ETB lol. And who cares it's only one shot, once the fatty rule the board.
If your opponents don't see blocking or killing Satoru as a priority, they are not very good players.
If you think you're a better player I wait you anytime, any day on cockatrice to test with your own eyes how much of your hypotethical arguments actually holds water in real life testing
If someone attacks you with Satoru and you have a creature and you don't block--well that's just silly (
Well, here's a couple of reasons of why people don't block (and I can't stress enough to remind you, that unlike you, I'm not talking about "hypotethical situations" only in your head, but how players actually behave in actual EDH games):
- the general is new, so new that isnt even out yet, so they have no idea of his true potential (in fact, I am currently the only one playing Satoru on cockatrice, I didnt see a single player yet except me testing him in games)
- they need too much their creature alive because it's apparently vital for their gameplan
- they always hope I have nothing in hand in that moment or nothing too catastrophic and manageable for them, and think that not blocking and having their creature alive it's worth the bet.
- they're simply not enough experienced players, what I can say.
Some reasons you could label as "silly" other reasons are definitely more reasonable, and since all my games on cockatrice are recorded, if somebody tells me how to put them in the forum, I'm glad to prove that players from all around the world, even in cedh games, behave like this, not always, but often enough.
I agree there's usually someone early on without a way to block, but that assumes you play Satoru on T3 and no one has removal.
Even if they have removal, one of the main strenghts of Satoru is being cheap, so I will just cast him next turn again (and I remind you that in this format the fast and broken mana rocks are legal). And even so, I play blue and black which are the kings of both protection (counterspells like Fierce Guardianship, Force of Will, Force of Negation etc.) and removals if I encounter blockers (Deadly Rollick, Toxic Deluge etc.) and card advantage (Necropotence etc), so I'm not worried too much, I am more often than not have more than one backup plans (including having more ways to cheat the creatures without the general out)
Did you play against other people when you did your Cockatrice games or against yourself (legit question, not being snarky, I used to test decks that way all the time)?
I am not able to test against myself, games tends to be too much biased on the fact that I know the info of both hands and I really not good to pretend to not know. But I play cockatrice all the times, against a great variety of power levels and decks, so I believe thats enough data for useful testing. Better data for sure, than the people in this thread speaking the card only in a vacuum with literally zero actual experience with the card.
needs a lot of things to line up right to really go nuts.
Having him on the battlefield and a creature in hand isn't "lots" of things. Also, the creature he cheat doesn't even be necessarily a fatty of 20 mana. Even cheap but tricky creatures that makes raw card advantage and dominance of board (with enter the battlefield or combat damage triggers for example) are worth enough an ability that cheat them to play already attacking, out of nowhere because opponents can't expect them until the last minute and without being countered. Lastly, I'm black the color of the best tutors available, to add a lot of consistency on the overall build.
I don't think Satoru bouncing himself is a practical assumption. He has no evasion and will be seen coming a mile off.
I can assure you it is practical. First of all, in a multiplayer pod it's very likely that at least 1 player doesn't have creature defense in early game since Satoru it's cheap to cast; or that even if they have creature defense, they need so much that creature alive they won't block because they can't even imagine if and what I will put with Satoru. Lastly, blue and black are literally the king colors of evasion, and stuff like Shizu, Death's Storehouse or Soaring Seacliff it's incredibly cheap and efficent way to give evasion to the general. In those days, I bounced Satoru itself on cockatrice so many, but really, so many times I need even to make in the rules section a question if his first ability trigger or not (and doesn't but its still damn good).
He didn't specify if the "another creature" he needs was the one in hand or in the battlefield. It's not that I have to learn to read, it's him that wasn't clear enough. Especially because that if the creature he was talking about was in hand, doesn't make sense the comparison to Kaalia in his context, they would be identical in that case, while he was pointing out all the differences between the 2 in that quote. Maybe you're the one that should learn to read, "bro".
EDIT: Oh wait, he actually said it:
" you have to pay mana to use the ability every time, have to have another creature and have to return that creature to your hand. "
So, yes, when he talked about the "you need another creature.", he was talking about another creature different from him in battlefield to bounce, which is why I pointed out that was straight false, because Satoru can bounce itself just fine, doesnt need this famous "another creature" at all.
"Learn to read, bro", part 2.
I was just pointing out that the cards are analogous, with pros and cons for each.
And I was just pointing out that there are more pros and less cons than you were pointing out, nothing more, nothing less.
All right tested Satoru on a dozen of EDH games on cockatrice. In about every level except CEDH he is damn scary, and will kick asses in optimal build (and if the build it's really opbtimal, you don't even need to always have him on board to make his strategy working just fine).
It's a Quicksilver Amulet with a huge caveat and has no synergy with Yuriko.
It's nice there's a new option but this guy is pretty weak imo.
i hope you're not talking about Commander. Because in that case, when you will see him hitting you with a random eldrazi or colossus and protecting himself with counters you'll feel it directly in your face how "weak" he is.
You spend a card to get three mana off your commander? I mean I don't doubt there's some kind of combo that makes it decent but I don't think it's an auto-include unless you just have extra space or something.
I can't imagine a deck that don't want play his commander as soon as possible to start doing his shenaningans (Oloro being the extreme corner case, probably few others, but very few). You understimate the huge advantage of having your main deck engine on board before everyone else. It's not that you need a combo. It's just raw advantage over the others that has almost only plus sides overall. As I said, you can even pay the commander tax, so as being both useful in early or late game, it's never a dead draw, you will always use it. I proxy the Lotus in all my decks and it's so good that can easily replace any single basic land or subpar mana source slot of the deck. I am always happy to see the Lotus no matter what deck I'm playing and that alone make a lot of pressure to my opponents, that either have removal ready or succumb to my raw advantage.
And I could make countless of examples of how scarcity and expensiveness make a card in EDHrec much less played compared to cards that are suboptimal but much cheapier and available. One random example? Underground Sea according to EDHrec see play in only 15% of decks while the sub-par Watery Grave see play in over 51% of decks, despite being objective worse. All confirm what I am saying and your argument -or better to say, fallacy- to use EDHrec as a source of how a card should be objectively better or more played than another, it's refuted.
Per EDHCREC it uses in 8% of decks I'd think an auto-include, even one as pricey and rare, would end up higher used
I already explained why so. It is a very expensive mythic rare printed only once, so in real life you see much less decks playing it than it should deserve, and EDHrec typically register decks made in real life despite the objective factors that should make a card see more or less play. It's for the same reasons cards like Mana Crypt and Mana Drain see play for EDHrec only in the 14-15% of decks while in reality they are so strong they belong in the 99,99% of decks where they are legal for Color Identity reasons (and both Mana Drain and Crypt get reprinted much more times than Lotus, despite being also rare and expensive, which explain why even if expensives, they still see more play than Lotus, but much more less than they truly deserve to).
Besides personal anecdotes do you have anything to back up your 99% claim?
I don't need anecdotes, facts talks that:
- You can cheat turn 1 any commmander that is monocolor, bicolor or colorless and cost 4 or less mana
- That you can cheat much, much earlier expensive commander costing +5 and more mana in colorless, monocolor, bicolor and even tricolor decks (Edgar Markov can be played Turn 2 and Narset turn 3 without any other ramp support and is pretty crazy for today standards)
- That you can split the lotus mana to even play 2 Generals with Partner at the same time.
- That even in the worst cases ever, you can always use the Lotus to recast a death commander and paying easily his commander tax.
So it's a card that it's truly never dead in a game, except in the very rare cases you don't ever need to cast your commander (like Oloro) which is why I said 99% and not 100%.
- Last but not least Lotus is a very pricey and expensive card despite the fact that out of commander is totally useless, exactly because players themselves recognize it's extremely powerful and worth to be played in almost any competitive or casual deck.
You can argue how much you want but those are facts. If you don't realize this, you either play EDH only at casualish level withing your small circle of friends without seeing the objective truth of how people can actually use cards within their full potential...or you have no idea of what's actually good in this format, which seems more likely to me.
Ah yes, WotC, the same that said that "Ultimate Masters" was the last master set they would ever do. The same they promised they wouldn't put "autoinclude" for commander anymore and then print Jewel Lotus. I wouldn't put too much trust on them about these kind of things.
You think Jewel Lotus is a auto-include? LOL okay, well I don't need to take your options on commander seriously anymore then.
Yeah it is for like 99% of Commanders, pretty much as Arcane Signet or Command Tower, except is more powerful, rarer and expensive. Thank you for confirming that you are the one that has no idea how EDH world works apparently, and thus having no idea what are you even talking about. The literal only reason Lotus is played less than Tower or Signet in deck it's simply because it's a mythic rare printed only once in a booster product, but in context like cockatrice where cards are equally available to everyone, literally all competent players run it.
Who force you to buy basic lands for 100 dollas? Literally nobody. Is somebody stealing you something if some players want to spend 100 dollars on basic lands in order to express their personality with the cards? No. So why or what are you complaining exactly?
The same basic products available for anyone are the same since 1993 (and I would argue that we even made a huge improvement since those days since Reserved Lists cards are not even a thing anymore since Urza Saga). The only thing changed is that now, WotC can make more things for more different type of players, nothing more, nothing less. If you have a problem with that, you are a compulsive collector, and you can't blame WotC for that.
Repetita Iuvant. Nowhere I deny that there are no drawbacks to consider but that I literally simply said " that there are more pros and less cons than you were pointing out, nothing more, nothing less."
And I believe this close the conversation.
If you think that you and Grixh, which are exactly 2 persons, count as "so many" then I'm afraid you have to re-learn math again lol. (oh, btw, I received the same amount of likes when I said that Satoru kick asses, so by your own logic I can say that "so many people" agree with me
Also, why I should be salty at all? I won lots of games on cockatrice with him and pretty happy with the results, and I'm so confident on what I'm saying that I even suggested Grix to play against me to prove that theory is a thing and practical approach another, so you really are claiming that out of literally nowhere lol
Don't project to me what are actually maybe your feelings
Well that's just your subjective and questionable opinion that holds the same value as mine, that don't agree with you. Also, I can prove that even enfranchised players can still make mistake on evalutating correctly the power of spoiled cards that just in retrospective we know that are blatantly broken. Just look at the original thread of when was spoiled Jace, the Mind Sculptor one of the best PW ever. "Oh, he's just a brainstorm at 4 mana, nothing special" :D. So I definitely disagree with you. Every player have their own measure of what holds value in their heads, and what could be clearly underpowered for you, could be broken for another player and viceversa.
Not dying and being unblocked and having a creature in hand its not that hard and its more likely than your christmasmagicland world where every players got the removal ready for him anytime. In fact you would be shocked of how many non-Cedh players just don't run many removals at all, or they simply have in hand or the right mana to cast them, and even so, I pointed out, about protecting the general, I'm the color of counterspells, even free counterspells, and thats why Satoru is a solid general in excellent colors.
It's an excellent rate for mid-late game, and you will gladly pay that price, not only for the famous colossus, but for a phyrexian praetor, an archon of cruelty, a void winnover or whatever you prefer that has both pseudohaste and its uncounterable. Magic its full of fatties that are pretty much very deadly if they remain more than one turn on field.
Why you reply on only what is convenient for you and ignoring the rest? I literally mentioned also a 0 cmc land that trigger an uncounterable flying ability on ETB lol. And who cares it's only one shot, once the fatty rule the board.
If you think you're a better player I wait you anytime, any day on cockatrice to test with your own eyes how much of your hypotethical arguments actually holds water in real life testing
Well, here's a couple of reasons of why people don't block (and I can't stress enough to remind you, that unlike you, I'm not talking about "hypotethical situations" only in your head, but how players actually behave in actual EDH games):
- the general is new, so new that isnt even out yet, so they have no idea of his true potential (in fact, I am currently the only one playing Satoru on cockatrice, I didnt see a single player yet except me testing him in games)
- they need too much their creature alive because it's apparently vital for their gameplan
- they always hope I have nothing in hand in that moment or nothing too catastrophic and manageable for them, and think that not blocking and having their creature alive it's worth the bet.
- they're simply not enough experienced players, what I can say.
Some reasons you could label as "silly" other reasons are definitely more reasonable, and since all my games on cockatrice are recorded, if somebody tells me how to put them in the forum, I'm glad to prove that players from all around the world, even in cedh games, behave like this, not always, but often enough.
Even if they have removal, one of the main strenghts of Satoru is being cheap, so I will just cast him next turn again (and I remind you that in this format the fast and broken mana rocks are legal). And even so, I play blue and black which are the kings of both protection (counterspells like Fierce Guardianship, Force of Will, Force of Negation etc.) and removals if I encounter blockers (Deadly Rollick, Toxic Deluge etc.) and card advantage (Necropotence etc), so I'm not worried too much, I am more often than not have more than one backup plans (including having more ways to cheat the creatures without the general out)
I am not able to test against myself, games tends to be too much biased on the fact that I know the info of both hands and I really not good to pretend to not know. But I play cockatrice all the times, against a great variety of power levels and decks, so I believe thats enough data for useful testing. Better data for sure, than the people in this thread speaking the card only in a vacuum with literally zero actual experience with the card.
Having him on the battlefield and a creature in hand isn't "lots" of things. Also, the creature he cheat doesn't even be necessarily a fatty of 20 mana. Even cheap but tricky creatures that makes raw card advantage and dominance of board (with enter the battlefield or combat damage triggers for example) are worth enough an ability that cheat them to play already attacking, out of nowhere because opponents can't expect them until the last minute and without being countered. Lastly, I'm black the color of the best tutors available, to add a lot of consistency on the overall build.
I can assure you it is practical. First of all, in a multiplayer pod it's very likely that at least 1 player doesn't have creature defense in early game since Satoru it's cheap to cast; or that even if they have creature defense, they need so much that creature alive they won't block because they can't even imagine if and what I will put with Satoru. Lastly, blue and black are literally the king colors of evasion, and stuff like Shizu, Death's Storehouse or Soaring Seacliff it's incredibly cheap and efficent way to give evasion to the general. In those days, I bounced Satoru itself on cockatrice so many, but really, so many times I need even to make in the rules section a question if his first ability trigger or not (and doesn't but its still damn good).
He didn't specify if the "another creature" he needs was the one in hand or in the battlefield. It's not that I have to learn to read, it's him that wasn't clear enough. Especially because that if the creature he was talking about was in hand, doesn't make sense the comparison to Kaalia in his context, they would be identical in that case, while he was pointing out all the differences between the 2 in that quote. Maybe you're the one that should learn to read, "bro".
EDIT: Oh wait, he actually said it:
" you have to pay mana to use the ability every time, have to have another creature and have to return that creature to your hand. "
So, yes, when he talked about the "you need another creature.", he was talking about another creature different from him in battlefield to bounce, which is why I pointed out that was straight false, because Satoru can bounce itself just fine, doesnt need this famous "another creature" at all.
"Learn to read, bro", part 2.
And I was just pointing out that there are more pros and less cons than you were pointing out, nothing more, nothing less.
Nope, Satoru can bounce himself for Ninjutsu he doesn't need other guys around.
Thats actually a bonus, its great with ETB creatures and not only (Agent of Treachery, Baleful Strix, Hypnotic Siren, Hypnotic Sprite etc.)
Eldrazi, Phyrexian Colossuses and Praetors, Archon of Cruelty, and such are far superior. You have the 99% of Demons already anyway.
Also, having access to blue, the color of counterspell and Arcane Artisan type cards, it's a huge plus.
i hope you're not talking about Commander. Because in that case, when you will see him hitting you with a random eldrazi or colossus and protecting himself with counters you'll feel it directly in your face how "weak" he is.
I can't imagine a deck that don't want play his commander as soon as possible to start doing his shenaningans (Oloro being the extreme corner case, probably few others, but very few). You understimate the huge advantage of having your main deck engine on board before everyone else. It's not that you need a combo. It's just raw advantage over the others that has almost only plus sides overall. As I said, you can even pay the commander tax, so as being both useful in early or late game, it's never a dead draw, you will always use it. I proxy the Lotus in all my decks and it's so good that can easily replace any single basic land or subpar mana source slot of the deck. I am always happy to see the Lotus no matter what deck I'm playing and that alone make a lot of pressure to my opponents, that either have removal ready or succumb to my raw advantage.
I already explained why so. It is a very expensive mythic rare printed only once, so in real life you see much less decks playing it than it should deserve, and EDHrec typically register decks made in real life despite the objective factors that should make a card see more or less play. It's for the same reasons cards like Mana Crypt and Mana Drain see play for EDHrec only in the 14-15% of decks while in reality they are so strong they belong in the 99,99% of decks where they are legal for Color Identity reasons (and both Mana Drain and Crypt get reprinted much more times than Lotus, despite being also rare and expensive, which explain why even if expensives, they still see more play than Lotus, but much more less than they truly deserve to).
I don't need anecdotes, facts talks that:
- You can cheat turn 1 any commmander that is monocolor, bicolor or colorless and cost 4 or less mana
- That you can cheat much, much earlier expensive commander costing +5 and more mana in colorless, monocolor, bicolor and even tricolor decks (Edgar Markov can be played Turn 2 and Narset turn 3 without any other ramp support and is pretty crazy for today standards)
- That you can split the lotus mana to even play 2 Generals with Partner at the same time.
- That even in the worst cases ever, you can always use the Lotus to recast a death commander and paying easily his commander tax.
So it's a card that it's truly never dead in a game, except in the very rare cases you don't ever need to cast your commander (like Oloro) which is why I said 99% and not 100%.
- Last but not least Lotus is a very pricey and expensive card despite the fact that out of commander is totally useless, exactly because players themselves recognize it's extremely powerful and worth to be played in almost any competitive or casual deck.
You can argue how much you want but those are facts. If you don't realize this, you either play EDH only at casualish level withing your small circle of friends without seeing the objective truth of how people can actually use cards within their full potential...or you have no idea of what's actually good in this format, which seems more likely to me.
Yeah it is for like 99% of Commanders, pretty much as Arcane Signet or Command Tower, except is more powerful, rarer and expensive. Thank you for confirming that you are the one that has no idea how EDH world works apparently, and thus having no idea what are you even talking about. The literal only reason Lotus is played less than Tower or Signet in deck it's simply because it's a mythic rare printed only once in a booster product, but in context like cockatrice where cards are equally available to everyone, literally all competent players run it.