MTG Salvation

Quote from Cuivienen »

Quote from DigitalFire »

Could someone fill me in on the purpose of turbofog? How does it win? Based on the decklist provided, I'm guessing combat damage. How do you win if the opponents have better blockers?

Traditionally, by decking the opponents. See the inclusion of Elixir of Immortality.

Ah, K&T of Meletis makes a bit more sense now, and I like Psychosis Crawler. Would Blue Sun be a good addition?

Edit: Or better yet, Prosperity?

Could someone fill me in on the purpose of turbofog? How does it win? Based on the decklist provided, I'm guessing combat damage. How do you win if the opponents have better blockers?

Quote from DirkGently »

Well, the original topic if I remember was whether it made sense to play one of the partner commanders solo - and in particular whether it's worth adding another color (say if you're playing vial smasher as your primary commander, and adding another partner would require adding a color). Whether or not switching a non-partner commander for another one to add colors is sort of a different topic.

More importantly, I'm calling huge BS on the Jhoira thing. Maybe he can play jhoira turn 2 reliably, that's easy enough since any one of probably 10 different cards does the job (spirit guide, chrome mox, mox diamond, jeweled amulet, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, that red ritual, lotus petal, off the top of my head). Turn 1 always play a wheel? The only single one of those that does that is mana crypt, all the rest require 2 of them. Let alone turn 1 play AND activate jhoira - I'd say that even in a deck that isn't burdened down with having wincons to suspend, I doubt you could pull of 5 mana on turn 1 more often than 5% of the time. Even turn 2 it's probably only 20% or something - there just aren't that many fast mana cards. And AFAIK there's only like 5 wheels at a reasonable cost, and one of those is only reasonable if you miracle it (and another one ends the turn). I think you might be exaggerating just a teensy tiny bit.

I'm really not, t2 suspend happened really often, probably 2/3 of games. I could count on my hands the amount of times he didn't get t1 wheel, and we probably played 50 games together. It was incredibly glass cannon and folded like a house of cards if he didn't get it. I do have an embarrassing confession to make though.. we allowed a free Paris, meaning you could dig through up to a third of your deck. When I finally realized how stupid that was, the only two other competitive players weren't there anymore. I don't want to derail this thread anymore, please send me a PM if you still have doubt or if you want to call me an idiot for allowing a free Paris ;D

Quote from DirkGently »

Maybe we're talking about different things here. I'm saying, if zur had a color identity that added green (and was otherwise unchanged) or if jhoira had a color identity that added black (and was otherwise unchanged) they would be able to be better decks. Obviously if you have a very general-focused deck, not having that general in the command zone will be worse.

Yeah, we're talking about different things. I was just making a general statement that "3- or 4-color decks are nearly always just better than 2", but of course there are exceptions and those usually have to do with a specific strategy like Zur. So yes, I agree with you on all counts.

I'm really curious what you're talking about with jhoira. Outside of mana crypt or maybe simian spirit guide + lotus petal or something, how do you wheel turn 1? For that matter, why would you want to? Everyone already has close to 7 cards already. I don't get it. For THAT matter, why would you run a wheel effect in jhoira at all? I don't get the synergy. I guess if jhoira stays alive you can keep suspending stuff then wheeling, but I can't imagine jhoira living that long or needing to suspend that many cards. One eldrazi + obliterate ought to generally do it.

And then ON TOP OF THAT you're ALSO suspending playing Jhoira AND activating her on turn 1? AFTER a wheel? Holy christ, how is that even possible? Mountain, mana crypt, sol ring, lotus petal, wheel, mana vault, simian spirit guide, play jhoira, suspend? That seems like beyond a fantasy. Turn 2 is a little easier I guess, but you've still got to get multiple pieces of fast mana. Definitely possible, just pretty unlikely. I can't even begin to comprehend how such a thing would be "always, ALWAYS".

Hah, yeah he played all the stupid mana eggs and Simian Spirit Guide, etc. He almost always Paris'd down to 4 or less. After wheel, he gets 7 new cards, which are usually just more mana rocks. Suspend almost always happened t2 but sometimes t1. You can find his primer here, but it looks as though he's changed it to be a bit slower. I had a very similar deck on cockatrice, latest decklist here. Vancouver mulligan seriously hurt the deck, so wheel almost never happens t1 anymore :c The reasoning behind it is that while some are eggs and don't come back, you'll be playing at least a few rocks that stick around. Also it just disrupts everyone.

Quote from DirkGently »

Having a potential wincon of, say, survival of the fittest for Zur could potentially be very powerful. And having black's tutors would absolutely make jhoira way better. If there are zero cards in an entire color that benefit your deck...you clearly just aren't looking hard enough. And for most multicolor decks, adding another color to the manabase is a very low cost.

I agree in almost all cases, but not in the case of these two decks. I played against them for 4 years, they were the most powerful at the table. Jhoira always, ALWAYS played a turn 1 wheel effect followed by Jhoira and eldrazi suspended turn 1 or 2. This may not work as well anymore thanks to the Vancouver change, but I don't think any UBR deck could cast Eldrazi with haste on t2 while having us discard any removal we may have paris'd for so consistently. Same goes to Zur, but I suspect people could intentionally mulligan to a tutor for Zur each game since he doesn't need to come out so early. They could have used that tutor for protection though instead, so the consistency is arguable.

Quote from FearDReaper »

Not that I disagree with you but I think mid-range is basically goodstuff .

It's possible that I misunderstand what midrange means. My working definition of midrange is ramp early, play threats late game. It's almost exactly like control, which to me is use removal early, play threats late game. My definition of "hurr durr good stuff" is a pile of powerful cards with no disregard for strategy. Please someone correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Quote from Blueteam5 »

Quote from DigitalFire »

I posted my decklist in your previous thread. There's a Buried Alive package in there that's easy to miss but is really powerful. The Mimeoplasm as a copy of Sage of Hours with a number of counters on it equal to Lord of Extinction's power. With just a few cards from each player this is ~2 extra turns. With a Traumatize or after a major board wipe this becomes 10+ extra turns. There's also a nice synergy with Lord of Extinction and Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. This may require a bit of graveyard focus, or it just means you cast this later in the game when more things are in the grave. It's been game-winning for me and each piece is pretty useful on its own. Just something to consider, your playstyle may vary.

I like your list quite a bit. We do have a little different playstyles, I try not to include cards that can be near infinite or infinite without a lot of setup at least. I like the Lord of Extinction idea since it can be a huge beater on the field and I already run Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, so the synergy is there. Sage of Hours I will probably avoid for that reason alone. The Mimeoplasm can make great use of creatures already in the yard so I may find a slot for him as well. What recommendations of cards should I remove? Thanks for the awesome feedback!

I can respect that, taking 10 extra turns is super oppressive haha. If you don't want to combo, be aware that you have Ghave, Doubling Season, and Ashnod's Altar in the deck. I know you can choose not to combo when you assemble them, but when I've done that in the past it always ends in bad feelings. If they win, they feel they didn't earn it. If I still win, it's like I was toying with them when I could have won at any time.

As for cuts... Vorel of the Hull Clade seems super slow to me. 5 mana and 2 entire turn cycles and all you get is a single +1/+1 counter? At the very least it's worse than Anafenza, the Foremost. I think you should probably look to cut a few of the creatures that don't do anything except have counters on them. So whatever feels the weakest out of Managorger Hydra, Centaur Vinecrasher, or Golgari Grave-Troll. Death's Presence is just another Reyhan but costs more. You have a lot of sac outlets, I would cut Altar of Dementia, and also Ashnod's Altar if you don't want to go infinite with Ghave. Just some suggestions, good luck!

Quote from herenorthere »

This is such a narrow view of deck building. I guess if all you ever build is "hurr durr" good stuff, then sure I guess. Having more colors does add options that you wouldn't otherwise have access too even if you are just trying to do something thematic or synergistic but those options aren't always worth the trouble. If I'm building an artifact deck why would I splash green? What does green offer my game plan that makes the deck strictly better simply because I have another color? I mean ramp I guess but I already want a lot of artifacts, why not a few more mana rocks than normal?

...

tl;dr- Regardless of how much better splashing appears to be, having access to a second commander at all times is nearly always going to be okay. Worst case scenario you never cast it and nothing changes. Best case scenario you use cards you were already going to run and get extra value out of the command zone in a few games. The floor is so good in this situation, I don't see any logical reason to NOT run a partner, especially if there is already another one in the exact same color combo. If nothing else it avoids the Commander tax and gets you back on the board after a sweeper much faster.

To build on what you've said, you're correct that there are reasons to run less colors if you're going for a very specific strategy. Zur > the same deck + G. Jhoira > a similar deck + B. So you're right in that adding colors isn't always better. I'd say it's better in any deck that doesn't adhere to a focused strategy, but I don't think it's fair to say that means you have to be playing goodstuff. Control and midrange come to mind as deck building options that aren't super synergistic.

I posted my decklist in your previous thread. There's a Buried Alive package in there that's easy to miss but is really powerful. The Mimeoplasm as a copy of Sage of Hours with a number of counters on it equal to Lord of Extinction's power. With just a few cards from each player this is ~2 extra turns. With a Traumatize or after a major board wipe this becomes 10+ extra turns. There's also a nice synergy with Lord of Extinction and Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. This may require a bit of graveyard focus, or it just means you cast this later in the game when more things are in the grave. It's been game-winning for me and each piece is pretty useful on its own. Just something to consider, your playstyle may vary.

Quote from Incanur »

You're underrating Ravos, Soultender. Five mana is a lot, but the second ability has potential.

The thing for me about Ravos is not so much that it costs 5 but it also has to survive until your upkeep. Compare that with, say, Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Probably depends on how much removal your playgroup runs, my previous playgroup allowed Damia to trigger pretty often.

Quote from Pook and Pie »

Thrasios and Tymna is probably among the best combinations available (white gives Enlightened Tutor, Angel's Grace to abuse Ad Nauseam, etc., while black gives the aforementioned and all of its great tutors). Thrasios is just really stupidly good, so if we're talking best combinations, here, I feel like Thrasios needs to be in the discussion in some fashion.

I definitely underestimated Thrasios. I originally had Thrasios + Bruse Tarl so I could use Kiki-Jiki and Purphoros as my win-cons but I don't need those. Instead I can just use infinite mana combos, since Thrasios draws your deck. I get to cut redundant combos, get rid of red, AND get tutors from black? Yes please. I believe this is one of the best decks in the format.

Quote from Fortunex »

I disagree quite a bit with your evaluation of the new commanders. And you're including ones that don't have a matching partner in the same colors, which means you'd also be building a 3 or 4 color deck just to have an extra mediocre card in "hand"?

I'm not saying that the partner commanders are bad by any means. But if, for example, you're building a Reyhan deck, and actually focusing on using her ability, why would you include Ikra Shidiqi? Even if lifegain was something you wanted to do, there are better ways to do it that also synergize with the rest of the deck. I would rather have 99 good cards + Reyhan than 98 good cards + Reyhan + Ikra.

3- or 4-color decks are nearly always just better than 2 if you can afford the mana base. With 2-color, you pick the top ~30 cards from one color and the top ~30 from the next whereas with 4c you pick the top ~15 from each. The 15th best card of any color is much better than the 30th. Also, having one less cards in the deck does the same thing, the 98th best card > 99th. In addition, it (marginally) increases your consistency because you have a 7 in 98 chance to have Sol Ring / some other good turn 1 play in hand instead of 7 in 99. Obviously these are slim margins, so this shouldn't matter to anyone playing casually but we're discussing power level which doesn't matter casually either.

Choosing to trigger Sylvan Library while Notion Thief was already out. They draw 2, I lose 4 life. Feelsbadman

Even funnier was someone else cast Brainstorm at the end of that same turn! I wasn't in a place to tease since I just made that mistake, but you better believe we all had a good laugh.

Hey mox, I know you don't play the deck anymore but I was wondering what you thought of Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Do you think he could replace Damia in this deck? I think he could be the commander in some versions of BUG midrange, but I used to run an Oath of Druids version and I feel Damia is still better for that deck.

Quote from Gashnaw »

Why is everyone nergasming over the partners? The partners are crap and should only be put in the 99. There is no reason to play Ikra and Ishai over Atraxa. You want 4 colors, play one of the four colored generals or don't play 4 color.

This is a weird thing to say. First of all, if they're crap why should they be in the 99? I'd say Commanders don't need to be as powerful as what's in the deck, as ultimately your Commander is there to provide the colors and some added synergy with the deck. Furthermore, there are plenty of reasons to play 2 partners over 1. Having 2 cards in the command zone instead of one is card advantage. Having one less card in your deck is more consistency. More synergy avilable to you, or 2 different strategies. 2 sources of (separate) commander damage. A backup plan if one commander becomes unavailable. That's why the commanders aren't pushed, the partner mechanic is inherently strong.

Also, as said above, they don't have to be 4 different colors. In fact, we got:

• 20 new options for 2c;
• 65 new options for 3c; and
• 40 new options for 4c

No one should be upset by this year's commander product. Some of us have been waiting for 4c for many years, and they found a way to give to 2- and 3-color too.

Now to answer OP's question the same way most people have: Depends how you build the deck. I just mentioned that there are 125 new commander options to choose from. These range the full gamut of archetypes, so really all the extra options change nothing in terms of deck construction. There aren't really any "build around me" partners so the answer to your question is whatever was already the most powerful color combo. My own personal opinion? UG is commonly considered among the strongest. WUGBant and RUGTemur were powerful creature toolbox decks already, now you can combine them! That's what I did with Thrasios & Bruse Tarl, it was a great deck even when I played it with Reaper King. Then there's BUGSultai, which with the likes of Damia, Mimeoplasm, and Tasigur is the best color for graveyard strategies. Add in W for some white recursion with Thrasios & Ravos. Those color combos are what I cast my vote for.

Quote from DirkGently »

I think this does illustrate why it's so disheartening to see crap commanders for boros in the precons. Avacyn is quite mediocre in commander but she's quite good in standard. In order to print cards that are good in commander but won't affect standard, they usually need to cost too much, have an ability that necessitates building around them, or scales specifically for multiplayer. Commander is their opportunity to print something really cool for commander that doesn't mess with other constructed formats, and they take that opportunity to give us anya, merciless angel? Blerg.

You know, almost every Legend, Planeswalker, or really any mythic gets mixed reactions. Some people slot them right in, some people say they're terrible. But does ANYONE think last year's Boros commanders were good? I don't think I've seen a single positive thing about them, I truly cannot imagine how they got through.

Re Avacyn: Just spent an hour trying to draft a control list. Low cost hatebears and utility creatures plus Sunforger makes for a decent early-mid game. Kiki-Resto, PW ultimates, or even just Boros smash are decent finishers. This could be a decent control deck, and it could be fun and casual too if you used niche cards like Deflecting Palm or Comeuppance.

Quote from DirkGently »

If I was in charge of printing a Boros legend, I would put Commune with Lava on a stick. Maybe it would read like Prossh, exile cards for the amount of mana spent to cast it. Cards with that exile mechanic will always be my pet cards.

...Except for the part where that has nothing whatsoever to do with white.

Dammit Dirk, a guy can dream! Can I change my answer to Aurelia's Fury? Love that card too.

Quote from DirkGently »

Lyzolda is your "S-tier" (god I hate the idea that there's "tiers" of commanders like we're playing street fighter or something) BR commander? Wut?

I personally like tiers, but I respect and understand those who don't. Not trying to shoe-horn that idea in, but this discussion started to feel like a tier discussion. ie. Aurelia and Gisela are god tier, why play Iroas? To that I say, play them for fun! Many will disagree, just clarifying why I brought up tiers. (unrelated note: Lyzolda is a pretty strong combo general, it's one-track minded and I hate it)

Quote from DirkGently »

Anyway, the problem is simple. Boros commanders fit into one of two camps:
1) those who's main purpose is to deal damage to players in a format where that purpose is very ineffective (and more importantly, boring)

AND

2) those who suck horribly

I actually embarked on the "make a good Boros deck" journey a few years ago. It wasn't the greatest but I did win games often enough, and I did it with combat damage. "Boros smash" certainly sounds boring on paper, but I had fun. To each their own. On your second point, I may have dismissed this too readily. You say it's not that there are Boros generals that suck, it's that the only Boros generals that aren't "Boros smash" suck. You're right, that's a good point. I can see a case being made for Archangel Avacyn though as a control deck.

This set isn't bad per se, but definitely not pushed. I understand why, since the partner mechanic is really strong and make them worth over a single 4c commander. Made these decks a littler over a year ago but they're finally getting legal Commanders.

Thrasios & Bruse Tarl creature toolbox
Vial Smasher & Kydel waste not combo
Reyhan & Ishai reanimator combo
Tymna & Tana tokens aggro
Akiri & Silas affinity aggro