MTG Salvation

Here's a sample land base I use for the same colors:
I do 3 rainbow, 10 fetch, 6 duals, 6 shock, 4 check (4 can cover each color twice), and 4 pain (replacing gw with Horizon Canopy, wu with Nimbus Maze). I then have 4 spots for utility / basics at 37 lands. Why? Check lands pair well with the duals and shocks. Pain lands don't enter tapped, don't need to be used for color late game, and crucially for some decks, produce C.

Quote from SnowBunny »

As for a similar card, the closest you will get is Leovold... and let's just say, Playing leovold will make you an instant target. Leovold's Wheels is a very degenerate deck.

Before Leovold, I ran the same deck but with Waste Not as the win-con instead. Quite degenerate indeed.

Quote from DirkGently »

Quote from DigitalFire »

Quote from Igzex »

I have a simple answer to the philosophical debate: EDH is whatever you and the people you play with want it to be.

You're not wrong. It's a shame though, 99-card singleton + Commander is a great rules set that allows for much more variance than the other formats. It doesn't help that EDH killed off 60-card casual where no one had a problem with playing to win. There's really no more outlets in Magic for people who just want friendly multiplayer competition. I blame American culture, the "spirit of EDH" has become an excuse for participation-trophy narcissism.

Really? Most everywhere I've played, the vast majority of players are playing to win, usually with something in the 50-75% range of deck power. I don't know where "participation-trophy narcissism" comes in. Everyone having fun? Sure, people should have some amount of fun even if they don't win. As you said before, playing to win should be fun. Playing non-optimal decks? Does anyone actually want everyone to be playing naught but tuned combo decks? Sounds really boring.

I will say I think people who play without trying to win are misguided and make the game less fun. But those types of players seem to me to be very rare.

I haven't been so fortunate, so full disclosure I'm a bit salty. Haven't actually played EDH in 2 years, I'm only on here now because of 4c and to see how the EDH scene is nowadays.

I don't build my decks full power either, I'm too EDHD to tune that much so I'd be perfectly happy with a 75% deck power meta. At almost every LGS I've been to though, it seems like everyone would rather have me leaf through their deck to see how unique and creative they are than actually sit down at a table and play (someone on mtgsalvation had that as their sig but I forgot who). I get the same vibe as I do from selfies, it's all "look at me" and not "let's have a conversation". Maybe I'm just old-fashioned but that's what I meant by narcissism.

Quote from Igzex »

I have a simple answer to the philosophical debate: EDH is whatever you and the people you play with want it to be.

You're not wrong. It's a shame though, 99-card singleton + Commander is a great rules set that allows for much more variance than the other formats. It doesn't help that EDH killed off 60-card casual where no one had a problem with playing to win. There's really no more outlets in Magic for people who just want friendly multiplayer competition. I blame American culture, the "spirit of EDH" has become an excuse for participation-trophy narcissism.

Quote from ilovesaprolings »

The goal of Legacy is winning. The goal of commander was never winning. You don't base your format on cards like vaevictis asmadi if you want it to be competitive.

That's just not true. Sheldon has always said "build casually, play competitively". Once you shuffle up, you're playing to win and hopefully you have fun along the way. Even if Sheldon didn't say that, rules are rules. If I handed you a chess board with all the rules, then told you that the creators of chess had a vision that people would beat each other with the pieces, you wouldn't play chess differently (I hope). Abraham Lincoln has a good quote for this too (paraphrasing): "How many legs does a sheep have if you call its tail a leg? Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one." So when the RC says this is a social format, that doesn't change the rules, it just means you're not there for prize money but for friendly competition, so have a beer and some good conversation.

Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »

Quote from DigitalFire »

Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »

I hate non-interactive wincons
...
What I want from a commander game is my deck doing it's thing and my opponent's deck doing their thing

Troll post?

Why would it be a troll post?

You say you hate non-interactive, then say I wanna do my thing and you do your thing. Isn't that non-interactive? What if "my thing" is combo? If you like interaction, shouldn't you be able to interact with my combo? Also, lock-down is probably the most interactive deck I can think of, it's basically just pure and constant disruption. It's perfectly okay to find those playstyles unfun, I already said I dislike stax, but calling them non-interactive when they are is pretty uncool.

Edit:

Quote from ilovesaprolings »

And the goal of any game is to have fun. The point of a competition is to win.

Playing to win is supposed to be fun, otherwise it's a bad game.

Loaned out a deck that was not at all valuable, but when I got it back it was missing a card. Didn't realize until later, and it wasn't anyone's fault since he had been Praetor's Grasp'd and everyone just forgot. It wasn't hard for me to replace it but now I always count cards when I get a deck back. I feel bad about it, it seems like I'm suspecting them of stealing every time even though it's already saved me another misplaced card (same sleeves).

Quote from Damnosus »

Where do things like Static Orb, Winter Orb, and general stax strategies fall on the lockout spectrum?

The logical part of me says that if there's a line to be drawn, it's hard to find out where. But we're talking about arbitrary fun, and for me that's just playing cards. The more cards I play, the more fun I have. Kind of stupid/short-sighted but hey, that's why we don't make rules based on fun right?

Quote from Schondetta »

I never understood quick kills. If you want the game to be over so quickly than why are you playing.

The goal is to win, yes? Some people play this game for friendly competition rather than for the lulz. Besides, if the game doesn't go for hours and hours, you get to play more games!

Quote from Schondetta »

We will just scoop to you and start another game without that person
...
I vowed never to be that poor sport.

Troll post?

Quote from Schondetta »

I have become enlightened recently about losing I'm Commander . In that I don't really care anymore. Just go to the next game.
...
Winning is more fun when you have to work for it.

This is my philosophy too. I don't care whether or not I win, in multiplayer you won't be winning that often. Instead I care whether or not I played the best, or at least played my best.

Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »

I hate non-interactive wincons
...
What I want from a commander game is my deck doing it's thing and my opponent's deck doing their thing

Troll post?

To OP, I personally have the least amount of fun when I'm locked down, or when someone is playing a very linear deck. My perfect commander scene is one with diversity; decks with all sorts of different win-cons and strategies, decks that don't try to tutor for the same win each game. That's mainly why Narset bores me so greatly, it always plays the same. I won't bring these points up unless people ask, since fun is arbitrary and I don't believe it's right to impose one's vision of fun to a strategy game.

Quote from metalevolence »

Quote from DigitalFire »

Thrasios + Tymna is really good. Like, top 5 decks in the format good.

Uh... in a real competitive meta? There's no way. Post your deck to r/competitiveedh if you want to corroborate that opinion.

I can see them being a strong build, but your deck's curve is way too high and battlecruiser-y, it has too many cute cards like liliana's specter, paradoxical outcome, mirrorpool etc, and it's generally pulling in too many different directions.

You could play boonweaver giant combo, it's much faster. It's interesting that you get to add blue compared to something like karador, but I'm not sure any combination of partner commanders helps the combo plan enough to be the strongest choice for the command zone.

also, Tasigur is better with seedborn muse

I've collab'd with razzliox before, I know the competitive scene and I won't deny that the deck is built for my meta. My friends, on the rare chance I get to play with them, don't pack a lot of removal which gives me some leniency. That being said, Top Commanders of Edh also has Thrasios + Tymna among his/her top tier decks. I know most everyone dislikes them so I won't link to the page, but they're never far off in their tier lists.

I agree with Incanur, it may work better as a midrange deck. Both Tooth and Nail and Survival of the Fittest win you the game, so just pack the deck with tutors, fetch your win-con and some protection and you're set.

Quote from metalevolence »

Quote from DigitalFire »

I picked up Thrasios as my win-con. Before C16 my 4c deck relied on Kiki-Jiki to win, but since you can draw your deck with Thrasios + infinite mana, I could cut redundant combos (and replace red with black). Tymna helps me during the game, Thrasios helps me end it.

I see. I don't use infinite combos, so to me thrasios is just garbage

If your plan is to combo out, I don't really see why you'd even bother with any of the partner commanders

Lol I say Thrasios is good with infinite mana and you reply asking why I'd play Thrasios in a deck with infinite mana? Thrasios + Tymna is really good. Like, top 5 decks in the format good.

I respect your right to play how you like, it's entirely possible Thrasios is bad in battlecruiser Magic. Even then, it still filters your top-deck, draw you a card, and/or ramps. Could see it pairing well with Seedborn Muse.

Quote from metalevolence »

Quote from arrogantAxolotl »

Quote from Fenrir Rex »

You playing him with the other u/g partner? Because that just looks like a ton of fun.

I'm actually playing him with Tymna the Weaver. My four color deck didn't have a true commander prior to Commander 2016 and Atraxa isn't useful for my deck beyond being a good source of life. Of all the combinations of partners, Thrasios and Tymna seemed the best for my particular GWUB deck. They're not especially synergystic, but Thrasios does curve out into Tymna which is worth something.

My first crack at a tymna brew was this GWUB hatebears (bant splashing black, mainly just for tymna) but I went with kydele because I just literally never see myself wanting to cast or activate thrasios. If I don't have a better turn 2 play than him I definitely should not have kept that hand.

Not that kydele is much better, though. She can easily tap for 3 mana here but at that point the deck would already be rolling and she'd be win-more.

I picked up Thrasios as my win-con. Before C16 my 4c deck relied on Kiki-Jiki to win, but since you can draw your deck with Thrasios + infinite mana, I could cut redundant combos (and replace red with black). Tymna helps me during the game, Thrasios helps me end it.

Quote from Dies_to_Doom_Blade »

Quote from DigitalFire »

Wanted to mention that Thrasios, Triton Hero also wins the game with infinite mana. He still needs extra cards to kill, but lets you keep your green. Draw ability costs the same without needing colored mana and controls the card you get better, but doesn't stock your yard. Also:

Partner with Silas Renn, Reyhan, or the bad one to keep same BUGcolors.
Partner with Vial Smasher to add Rred.
Partner with Ravos or Tymna to add Wwhite.

True but that's just another infinite mana outlet that doesn't do anything by himself, same for the partners.
Tasigur is both an infinite outlet and protect for 1 mana over and over. Adding red or white would be sweet but we lose that general that allows us both card advantage and constant protection.

Plus I was messing around with a 4c manabase in reanimator and it's real fragile, I don't think I'll be going through with it unless it was dedicated combo but at that point I may as well play Scion druid or Boonweaver because both of those are miles better

Good point about the manabase and dedicated combo, cheers!

This is very creative and it makes me happy.

Suggestions besides Stonehewer+Godo mentioned above: Open the Armory(!!!), Steelshaper's Gift(!!!), Legion's Initiative, Weathered Wayfarer, Oreskos Explorer, Knight of the White Orchid, Commune with Lava, Nahiri, the Lithomancer, Mana Vault, Flagstones of Trokair, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

Quote from Dies_to_Doom_Blade »

I want to discuss Breya, Etherium Shaper. Both her and Tasigur win the game with infinite mana and she doesn't need extra cards to kill.
There are a few things to note.
Losing green means no birds, deathrite, or carpet so more early ramp is needed.
Survival, loam, safekeeper, deed, evolution claim, Terastdon would all be lost as well.
Gains would include Iona, loyal retainers, sun titan, Elesh norn, ashen rider, Dack fayden, faithless looting, izzet charm, worldgorger, and probably more.
With 2 Infinite outlets and lab man still in we may be able to do faster wins but without kills it would be more glass cannon unless we add even more kill spells like unmaking, vindicate, swords.

I'm leaning towards staying with Tasigur but curious what others may think.

Wanted to mention that Thrasios, Triton Hero also wins the game with infinite mana. He still needs extra cards to kill, but lets you keep your green. Draw ability costs the same without needing colored mana and controls the card you get better, but doesn't stock your yard. Also:

Partner with Silas Renn, Reyhan, or the bad one to keep same BUGcolors.
Partner with Vial Smasher to add Rred.
Partner with Ravos or Tymna to add Wwhite.

It's not often I misunderstand the wording, thanks for the correction! That's better value for sure.