So how do you guys feel about a street wraithless shadow? I've been thinking about playing a 16 land variant with young pyromancer and more cantrips over some number of fetches and street wraiths. I feel like street wraith has gotten worse now that most decks are equipped to handle our fast deaths shadow. Most of the time it feels bad when you don't actively have some number of shadow and I instantly board them out first in most matchups , I've been on grixis deaths shadow for about 8 months now. With the release of opt I've been testing it in a 14 land shell (currently with wraith) and adding two pyromancer cutting 1 snap , with 20 cantrips including street wraith and the deck just churns and finds whatever you need. I feel like street wraith is just a mediocre card at this point and I'm wondering if anyone else has cut them in favor of other cards. Opinions ?
100+ games , you only need one mana in your opening hand to function (14 land version with wraiths) I have 4x sleight 4x opt 4x wraith 4x serum 4x thought scour 8 fetches 6 non fetch. I've done zero testing with a wraithless version outside of a random decklist I threw together and played a few matches with, the idea is to take your first few turns finding the lands you need and playing out your disruption , then finding specific cards to tilt the MU in your favor. The hands with multiple lands feel broken , and imo your midgame is much stronger due to the amount of cantrips. This is the wraith version , wraithless I feel like would be similar in theory , just not aggressively killing yourself early on.
I've also been playing the ari lax 4x sleight version for awhile now , I think it's just the better deck when compared to the stock 18-19 land versions.
The big downsides for Ari Lax's 4 Sleight / 16 cantrip / 17 land version were always 1) Chalice, and 2) mana denial strategies. You end up much more susceptible to both. In an open metagame, I like it better than the stock 19 land version. But IMO in the MTGO/SCG open/GP metagames there's too much Spreading Seas, Blood Moon, Smallpox, Stone Rain, Ghost Quarter, etc., running around.
Edit: to be clear, I thought Lax's list was great until the format adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow. If your local metagame has not, it might be your best bet.
But as far as a 16 cantrip build with Opt replacing Street Wraith, you still have both problems. In fact, you're even worse vs. Chalice now. But the biggest problem is that your Death's Shadows will be far less explosive. This will hurt a lot in matchups like Storm and Valakut. So will having to spend mana to cantrip a higher percentage of the time - e.g. when you're digging for lands, but you also need to cast Thoughtseize or a threat. Then adding Young Pyromancer on top of it is sketchy. YP is essentially a 3 mana card. You can play him on 2, but you really want to play him then get immediate value. But cutting lands and adding cantrips makes it harder to hit 3 mana on turn 3 consistently without spend all/most of your mana on your early turns cantriping. Part of the beauty of Grixis Shadow is that it gets to interact on turns 1, 2, and sometimes 3, then cast a threat for 1 mana with more interaction held back.
Your 14 land, 20 cantrip version is insane to me. You have about a 13.9% to have an opening hand with 0 lands. If only 13 of your lands are blue sources (say you play a blood crypt), you have about a 16.3% chance to have an opening hand with 0 blue sources, which is almost certainly a mulligan. At 12 blue sources, it's 19.1%. That's a whole lot of mulligans due to not having enough land in the deck. Plus, so many of your games you have to spend all of your mana in the first 1-3 turns looking for another land. Modern punishes people who don't interact with their opponent in the first couple turns.
I agree. So, I feel like we should still be playing wraith; a lot of builds have been playing 1-2 Sleight of Hand, and I feel like those copies should be replaced by Opt.that puts our cantrip suite at:
4 Wraith
4 Serum
4 Scour
2 Opt
In my testing this has felt amazing, and also lets us keep hands more often. Opt has also felt superb in the mid game because it allows us to choose card quality at instant speed.
Picked up this deck a month ago and having a blast with it! At 19-5-1 so far over 5 FNMs as well as a PPTQ win.
Seems to me like one of the biggest choices in deck building is whether or not to go for Liliana of the Veil main and what number. I've tried zero and recently two main which I've liked. Does inclusion of Opt mean we want to go for a less tap out approach with perhaps more Stubborn Denials main for the turn 1s against Tron/Burn and such as well as less Lilianas? Or is it too much of a minor detail to affect the overall composition of the deck rather than just being good by itself alongside of or replacing Serum Visions?
I haven't been very enthused with Liliana in the main. I do like the build I've been working on with 3 Stubborn in the main. It helps us protect our threats a lot.
Well if bloodbraid isn't being unbanned then I think it's wholly unreasonable to expect that AV will be. If jund doesn't need help, then UR definitely doesn't.
Also I think pittsburgh was just a new low in a very consistent decline of BG decks since Abzan was supposedly the best in the format in January. Bloom decks are now everywhere and frankly jund just seems to get more bad matchups as the year goes on. In comparison it has few matchups which are favorable to a comparable degree. Either banning some decks out (goryos, bloom) or unbanning bbe helps fix this, but I'd much rather see an unban than a ban.
Plus I'm running 2 Lavamancers main. Plus I'm trying 2 Tops main. In a smoothly-running deck, most cards aren't chosen in a vacuum. A deck should be more than the sum of its parts, with everything working together towards a common goal.
Can you link your list, please? I have been trying to figure out a way to fit them into the list. Any tips for MUs that are maybe closer to 50/50 or less for someone going to their first major Legacy event?
Je3vEs: Main feedback is that 18 lands seems way too few. 19-20 would be recommended, especially with Sulfuric Vortex in the list. Other thing is Ingot Chewer seems out of place.
I agree with the land count. It's back up there.Ingot chewer is in there for decks running things like chalice. It's also a way to get around everything but Stifle. I'm still testing it out.
And does anyone have a solid Primer? I'm still fairly new to Legacy, and I want to be sure that my information in addition to testing is correct. I don't want to mis-SB and just lose outta my Day 2.
So, I've been playing Burn now for a little while, and I'm most likely taking it to the GP next month in SeaTac. The list I have thus far (which will most likely change after watching everything from SCG this weekend) is this:
After this weekend's results, I feel like Faerie Macabre Would be something that is worth a possible slot or Surgical Extraction. I'm also wondering if something like Pithing Needle Would be a great addition to the board like Mr. Walters' list on SCG. What do you all think? Should the REB/Pyro count go up to a full 4? And Should Searing Blaze plus Grim Lavamancer just be favored over the Swiftspears at the moment due to the sheer amount of Delver and aggro decks running around at the moment?
Last weekend I played two modern last chance trial for WMCQ and one modern side event. 5-1 top 4 last man standing, 4-0 won last man standing and 4-0 16 people swiss no top; 13-1 overall with the following list, lost to naya zoo (mana screw) and won grixis twin (2-0), junk x2 (2-1 and 2-0), jund x2 (2-0 and 2-1), affinity (2-0), "blue jund" (2-0), grixis control (2-0), nacatl burn (2-0 lol), melforks (2-1), melira company (2-0) and UR delver (2-0) plus a bye.
Worked like a charm against everything
I'll try the Majors variant, but I'm not confident with its reliability.
What do you think of Shadow of Doubt? Any of the new cards you can see using? Personally, I feel like Bribery may be worth running in the side after BFZ drops.
Personally, I have not tested Kokusho, the Evening Star. However, I do know that he would probably be house. The evasion is nice. I would have to say, though, that I just love Grave Titan so much more. I'm just a bit biased that way, thoug. 10 power is nice and it just grows exponentially. Even if he is hit by Path to Exile he still leaves critters behind.
Je3ves - Why 3 remands and no mana leaks? Do you just get eaten alive by aggro? It looks like you're basing your list on the Michael Majors list - have you checked out the blue jund thread? It's whole goal is to use Jace to his full potential.
Just something I've been testing. My usual split is 2 Leak 1 remand. I will most likely go back to that.
I like the list. Although, I am not the biggest fan of Go for the Throat just because it's terrible vs both Tron and Affinity which have been growing in numbers. I would suggest another Terminate or a Dismember in its stead.
Here's the list I've been testing all day for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and stuff. You'll notice the creature count may seem a bit high. It's due to the fact that, when I was playing just the standard 4 Snappy and 2/2 split of Tassy and Angler I was noticing the deck had a hard time closing out. This way, I at least have several more ways to finish off the opposition.
The sideboard is a work in progress. So far, I was thinking something like this for my local meta (it's mostly Jund/Junk, Twin, Tron, and the occasional aggro deck).
Sideboard Thus Far:
2 Shadow of Doubt - for the Tron MU and Scapeshift mostly along with any of the random Chord decks that pop up.
2 Damnation - for all the aggro MU
2 Thoughtseize - for the control MU and the mirror. Can also be great vs combo.
2 Vampiric Link - the burn MU and anything else super aggro that comes along.
1 Blood Moon - Jund and other things that have shaky land bases.
1 Counterflux - counter wars.
I'm still not sure what else to be bringing in here in the SB. Anything you guys play that really seems to make a world of difference? I was contemplating playing Molten Rain just because it gets crazy ass value from both Jace, Vryn's Prodigy As well as Snapcaster Mage. Hope you guys like it and please don't hesitate to throw some information my way.
COMMANDER:
WThalia, Guardian of ThrabenW
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Secluded Steppe
2 Snow-Covered Plains
5 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Castle Ardenvale
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
1 Buried Ruin
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mobilized District
1 Inkmoth Nexus
CREATURES:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Lodestone Golem
1 solemn simulacrum
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Sun Titan
1 World Queller
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Realm-Cloaked Giant
1 Karmic Guide
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Cavalier of Dawn
1 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Archon of Justice
1 Restoration Angel
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Shadowspear
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Staff of Nin
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Smokestack
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Damping Sphere
1 Trinisphere
1 Winter Orb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Caged Sun
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grafdigger's Cage
ENCHANTMENTS:
1 Elspeth Conquers Death
1 Aura of Silence
1 Deafening Silence
1 Rest in Peace
1 Marshal's Anthem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Cast Out
1 Wrath of God
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon
1 Catastrophe
1 Decree of Justice
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Heliod's Intervention
1 Brought Back
1 Teferi's Protection
1 Council's Judgment
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Crib Swap
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tragic Arrogance
WALKERS:
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Ugin, the Ineffable
I agree. So, I feel like we should still be playing wraith; a lot of builds have been playing 1-2 Sleight of Hand, and I feel like those copies should be replaced by Opt.that puts our cantrip suite at:
4 Wraith
4 Serum
4 Scour
2 Opt
In my testing this has felt amazing, and also lets us keep hands more often. Opt has also felt superb in the mid game because it allows us to choose card quality at instant speed.
I haven't been very enthused with Liliana in the main. I do like the build I've been working on with 3 Stubborn in the main. It helps us protect our threats a lot.
I always love reading your posts. <3
Can you link your list, please? I have been trying to figure out a way to fit them into the list. Any tips for MUs that are maybe closer to 50/50 or less for someone going to their first major Legacy event?
I agree with the land count. It's back up there.Ingot chewer is in there for decks running things like chalice. It's also a way to get around everything but Stifle. I'm still testing it out.
7 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
1 Barbarian Ring
Creatures: 14
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze
Sorceries: 12
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Enchantments: 2
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
After this weekend's results, I feel like Faerie Macabre Would be something that is worth a possible slot or Surgical Extraction. I'm also wondering if something like Pithing Needle Would be a great addition to the board like Mr. Walters' list on SCG. What do you all think? Should the REB/Pyro count go up to a full 4? And Should Searing Blaze plus Grim Lavamancer just be favored over the Swiftspears at the moment due to the sheer amount of Delver and aggro decks running around at the moment?
What do you think of Shadow of Doubt? Any of the new cards you can see using? Personally, I feel like Bribery may be worth running in the side after BFZ drops.
Just something I've been testing. My usual split is 2 Leak 1 remand. I will most likely go back to that.
I like the list. Although, I am not the biggest fan of Go for the Throat just because it's terrible vs both Tron and Affinity which have been growing in numbers. I would suggest another Terminate or a Dismember in its stead.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Instants: 22
4 Lightning Bolt
4 thought Scour
3 Remand
3 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
1 Dismember
1 Electrolyze
4 Serum Visions
The sideboard is a work in progress. So far, I was thinking something like this for my local meta (it's mostly Jund/Junk, Twin, Tron, and the occasional aggro deck).
Sideboard Thus Far:
2 Shadow of Doubt - for the Tron MU and Scapeshift mostly along with any of the random Chord decks that pop up.
2 Damnation - for all the aggro MU
2 Thoughtseize - for the control MU and the mirror. Can also be great vs combo.
2 Vampiric Link - the burn MU and anything else super aggro that comes along.
1 Blood Moon - Jund and other things that have shaky land bases.
1 Counterflux - counter wars.
I'm still not sure what else to be bringing in here in the SB. Anything you guys play that really seems to make a world of difference? I was contemplating playing Molten Rain just because it gets crazy ass value from both Jace, Vryn's Prodigy As well as Snapcaster Mage. Hope you guys like it and please don't hesitate to throw some information my way.