I'm talking a good case scenario, not best, and I'm talking an average case for opponents. I've seen Bloom beat Jund on turn 3 on the draw after being thoughtseized and a liliana plus.
I've seen Amulet kill turn 3 after a burn player goes turn 1 Guide turn 2 Eidolon Turn 3 Swiftspear double bolt.
I've seen Amulet kill turn 3 with having their turn 2 bloom being remanded.
No interaction? Bloom can kill turn 2. With interaction? Can still kill turn 3. And even decks good case scenarios still beat them.
I've also seen cards banned for less. If Bloom isnt banned I would be absolutely shocked.
These kinds of statements are useless and can be applied to any deck. I have seen decks mulligan to 4 and win; ban mulliganing its broken!
I have seen Affinity decks win through a turn 2 stony silence and a turn 4 shatterstorm.
I have seen burn win through Leyline of Sanctity and 2x Timely Reinforcements
ETC ETC
The only thing that matters is a) is the deck warping the format (easy no, since its 3% of the current meta) b) is the deck winning too many tournaments (no, it hasnt won any and has a handful of good finishes) c) does the deck win consistently before turn 4. C is the only one that even comes close and since we have no idea what WotC's definition of consistently is, we can only guess.
After months of playing the deck (which I sold so it being banned or not matters nothing to be now) it does not, IMO, break that rule.
With all the GY based synergies going on in Modern now, I feel like this card is criminally underplayed (the same with Leyline of the Void). Being one-sided makes this actually playable unlike a card like Rest in Peace which neuters most decks as much as it neuters your opponents. This card against all the Grixis decks is such a beating. Thoughts? Playability? Obviously a SB card.
The problem it has is the same that so many sideboard cards have; it is not an insta-win against the decks you bring it in against (like Blood Moon) and while it slows them down, it does not provide a clock or lock them out.
Why in this thread is it always assumed that the combo player has a good/perfect hand perfectly able to get around disruption and the opposing deck is typically thought of as having much more variable hands that don't always have the tools to get there?
Is variance not a thing, or strictly one sided where you guys play?
It's because the ppl crying for certain combos to be banned (Goryo's and Amulet) do not play the deck so their only interaction with the deck is when they play against it. Of course they do not post about when they beat the deck because their opponent mulliganed into oblivion or drew nothing and lost in 10 turns. They only remember the one time the combo deck did what it was supposed to do and go off in a reasonable time frame and they lost.
Just look at the guy who posted just above you with his screenshot, his hand is 4 lands and a looting....... I'm sorry you kept a bad hand against a combo deck (or that you mulliganed and got screwed) but thats not the combo decks fault..... if it had been an affinity deck, they would have had you half dead and unless that faithless looting hit Spirit Guide and Pyroclasm you were prolly dead anyways.
And no matter what his hand was, unless he had Disrupting Shoal, the combo deck would have killed him.
I despise combo decks and would personally prefer the game without them, but they have ever right to exist and be competitive. But plenty of these decks win on turn 2 or 3 too often, sometimes through disruption. Yes, they sometimes lose to themselves. But that's not a justification for them having a winrate that violates one of the key tenants of the format (turn 4 rule). If a deck wins turn 1, 2, or 3, say, 30% of the time and loses to itself 40% of the time (with the other 30% inbetween), then it violates one of the key rules of the format and has no place in modern.
For what must be the 10000th time in this thread, the rule is NOT does it win before turn 4. The rule is that it CONSISTENTLY wins before turn 4. Storm was banned because it killed like 40% of the time before turn 4 (I dont know if there is an actual solid number out there, but that is the number that was thrown around a lot it could be wrong).
So yes, while they can and do win before turn 4, the question is do they do it consistently enough to ban them. After playing both of them (though I played the Grixis Fury version of Goryos so I can not say for certain if the Shoal version is better or worse) they do not. The turn 2/3 wins are easily balanced within the deck by how often the deck beats itself (i won 1 game for every 2 that i lost due to mulligans or just never drawing what I needed)
And while I understand that the internal balance of the deck is not any comfort to the player who just got turn 2ed, oh well. Thats magic.
Why in this thread is it always assumed that the combo player has a good/perfect hand perfectly able to get around disruption and the opposing deck is typically thought of as having much more variable hands that don't always have the tools to get there?
Is variance not a thing, or strictly one sided where you guys play?
It's because the ppl crying for certain combos to be banned (Goryo's and Amulet) do not play the deck so their only interaction with the deck is when they play against it. Of course they do not post about when they beat the deck because their opponent mulliganed into oblivion or drew nothing and lost in 10 turns. They only remember the one time the combo deck did what it was supposed to do and go off in a reasonable time frame and they lost.
Just look at the guy who posted just above you with his screenshot, his hand is 4 lands and a looting....... I'm sorry you kept a bad hand against a combo deck (or that you mulliganed and got screwed) but thats not the combo decks fault..... if it had been an affinity deck, they would have had you half dead and unless that faithless looting hit Spirit Guide and Pyroclasm you were prolly dead anyways.
Lantern control is seriously annoying deck and I wouldn't mind getting it banned. It's very boring to play when you spend whole eternity doing nothing but jut sitting there and wasting your time because you can't.
This is the problem w this thread in a nutshell (not trying to pick on you its just a great example). Half the posts boil down to this mindset... " i dont like playing against deck X so it should be banned".
Thats not how bans should be handled; it should be handled purely based on the health and diversity of the field, not bc it makes u sad to play against it. If u read half of the Bloom ban comments they are "i hate that they killed me on turn 3, i was about to kill him next turn".
Bans decks bc they give u the sads is a dumb way to rule the format bc every deck hss ppl who hate playing against it, so your deck could easily be the next
The card is super-broken...
4 mana for a total of 6 mana-creatures, 2 creatures of 0-3 cost, uncountereables and at instant speed. Filter the deck, no doble color cost, etc.
The people who said "it cant be banned" "not powerfull like pod" its just because the bought it and are using it =P
CoCo requires nothing from your hand, other than casting CoCo.
Summerbloom requires you have 3 lands IN YOUR HAND. They are nothing alike.
I know its the cool thing to hate on Summerbloom/Amulet, I mean all the Pros are doing it, so lets follow suit. But jesus, at least make sense when your doing it.
I don't understand this paranoia that they're trying to make weaker versions of existing cards as a "replacement". Is there a precident I'm unaware of here? And I don't think collected is a pod replacement attempt.
I think ppl look at the Pod banning and, almost immediately after, we get CoCo. CoCo, is very arguably, a toned down version of Pod; it was the feel of what most people would argue is what Modern power level should be. Something that has a one-time powerful effect on the boardstate but that is easy to interact with (its just an instant) and a reasonable CMC.
I dont personally believe that WotC is looking at cards in Modern and saying "This too strong, lets make a "fixed" version, ban the broken one and reason it". But I do think WotC liked what Pod did in Modern, got ppl to play with lots of creatures, play "weaker" creatures that did not see the most play (Seer, Voice, Melira, Redcap, etc) but had some great synergy, so they printed a Pod 2.0 that they could more easily control.
Arguing for a Snap ban is dumb; Blue has almost no source of card advantage that is currently playable (hell, ppl are forced to play Think Twice just to find some form of card advantage) and that is supposed to be BLUE'S THING.
I'm honestly a little more worried about what unbanning him would do to his price, considering how high he is without being Modern legal.
Could be solved with reprints, but the only good spaces to put something like Jace that could even dent the price tag would be Modern Masters (meaning we'd have to deal with $200+ Jaces for a while until they get around to that) or Standard (which could theoretically happen if they're willing to make the format as anti-Jace as possible, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to have to go through all that just to bring him back to Standard).
This is definitely a concern but should not be a reason to keep something on the ban list.
There are solutions to the problem; its actually a problem for a bunch of cards (lilly, goyf etc) that all need to be reprinted in number beyond what supplements like MM allow. It has been over a month now, and Goyf has not really dropped in price, even though its been printed in 2 separate supplements now.
Some solutions are: pre-ban the cards before the set is released for Standard, so that people know they will not be allowed in Standard but you are using it as a reprint program. OR build the set with those cards in mind; it was actually something I was hoping they do with Origins but it did not happen.
I really hope they don't do this. Leave my standard sets alone so I can get my draft on. I don't want lilis jaces and goyfs taking up slots just cause you don't wanna pay their price. Supplementary products are absolutely the place for these cards, and goyfs DID drop in price to the point where I can actual afford em.
Well grats to you, but I do not think paying a months rent on 4 pieces of cardboard is worthwhile. Especially when there is no good reason for the cards to be so expensive.
And how would it ruin your draft experience? goyf was in both MM and MM2 and it didnt ruin anyone's draft experience. Lilly was in innistrad and that set was drafted insanely. JtMS, printed with him in mind for a draft set, could be done very well and very interestly. Add some lightning bolts, Wipe Aways and Heroe's Downfall and he is easily contained.
ITT we fail to realize to properly evaluate power cards because while they don't break the rules, they're far too efficient for their cost (lookin at you Jace and Drs) to the point where they're format warping.
Seriously guys sometimes I swear that if a card doesn't break the turn 4 rule (and sometimes even if it does) you guys want it unbanned. Much like jitte and clamp, these cards are just too much (not saying they're on the same level, but their banned for essentially the same reasons)
Please point out how Jace would be format warping?
I made a long list of the ways current tier 1/1.5 decks would ignore him or just dont care about him. DRS, is definitely format warping, we have proof of that. He is just too good for his CMC 1, giving 2 different colours access to abilities they shouldnt have (G gets reach, B gets life gain/mana fixing&ramp). But lumping JtMS in with DRS is a joke. JtMS has a CMC of 4, which is a death sentence in Modern, has a cost of 2UU which makes him harder to splash and has very little effect on the game state when it comes into play. Yes, he is extremely strong if you can land him and control the board for a few more turns but so what? At CMC 4 a card that comes down and stays SHOULD be strong.
@ ppl who say Twin would jam 4 JtMS.... really? the whole point of the deck is that it runs at instant speed, forcing your opponent to play awkwardly. Jamming 4 CMC 4 sorcery that do not win the game when they come down seems ambitious to say the least. Maybe I'm wrong but I just do not think the pros outway the building deck costs for Twin.
I'm honestly a little more worried about what unbanning him would do to his price, considering how high he is without being Modern legal.
Could be solved with reprints, but the only good spaces to put something like Jace that could even dent the price tag would be Modern Masters (meaning we'd have to deal with $200+ Jaces for a while until they get around to that) or Standard (which could theoretically happen if they're willing to make the format as anti-Jace as possible, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to have to go through all that just to bring him back to Standard).
This is definitely a concern but should not be a reason to keep something on the ban list.
There are solutions to the problem; its actually a problem for a bunch of cards (lilly, goyf etc) that all need to be reprinted in number beyond what supplements like MM allow. It has been over a month now, and Goyf has not really dropped in price, even though its been printed in 2 separate supplements now.
Some solutions are: pre-ban the cards before the set is released for Standard, so that people know they will not be allowed in Standard but you are using it as a reprint program. OR build the set with those cards in mind; it was actually something I was hoping they do with Origins but it did not happen.
Hi, so this may have already been discussed over and over but I wanted to talk about Jace the Mind Sculptor. I personnaly think he would be a totally safe unban for modern (and not past standard...) but most people seem to disagree, so I'm willing to hear arguments against him.
I personaly think:
- At sorcery speed for 4 mana, he is really slow for modern: most blue decks don't even play 4 cryptic (1-2) as 4 is a lot, and Cryptic is instant. So I know cryptic is not JtMS but it is the most powerful blue 4-drop in modern
- Jace does not see that mch play in legacy (1 of in stoneblade, 2-4 in BUG and miracles I believe?), and in that format you can basically jam him on turn 4, that protect him with free counterspells. In modern, playing him on turn 4 without counterspell backup is really risky (twin, aggro killing you...), so you would have to wait until turn 6-8, which is really slow.
-If you did nothing for the beginning of the game, a turn 4 Jace will not win you the game, most likely will bounce a creature of brainstorm then die. Then remand+removal+Jace on an empty board is a good place to be for control, but so is remand into removal into exarch+twin.
-Jace is one of the cards that would most likely benefit control over combo, unlike DTT. To speak once again about legacy, he only sees plays in midrage and control decks.
In modern, he might help make some UWx control deck really competitive. He would also most likely be played in twin, but he would either take the slot of:
-Jace AoT or Keranos in the side
-Splintertwin: thus twin would become more of a control deck, with a split betwin twin-jace (3-1 maybe?)
-Cryptic: maybe cryptic could be cut to a 1 of to make room for Jace. In any way I don't see it pushing Twin over the top
So this is my mind for the moment, maybe I am completely missing the point. Sur Jace basically wins you the game for 4 mana at sorcery speed. But by turn 4, most decks can already kill you in modern.
Si I'll be happy to hear some arguments on why he is really that broken, and if you can change my mind, since for now I just can't understand why they don't unban him
The issue isn't that it's "broken". The issue is that it is meta defining.
Any deck that can't deal with JtMS would be pushed out of the meta. Off the top of my head: tron is such a deck. How does tron beat a resolved jace? The fateseal effect can continually keep them off what they need, and they have no way to kill jace except karn/ugin (both which need the tron to cast in a timely fashion).
Thats the thing though, there is no current tier 1 or even tier 1.5 deck that cant deal with it, so its not meta defining.
Burn - is killing on turn 4 usually and is so redundant that fatesealing is next to useless, he gains u no life when it comes down and bouncing their creatures is a joke (2 have haste, other one isnt usually attacking)
Twin - plays a ton of counters, so can stop Jace from coming down on curve and can be comboing out on turn 4
CoCo - depending on build, can be comboing out, dropping a ton of creatures to blank Jace unsummon or if Elves is killing you with Overrun
Junk/Jund - If you can keep the board clean, this deck should have trouble with him, but thats the point, he is great against Midrange decks
Affinity - HA, non-board wipe turn 4 play?! NEXT
Bloom - again, turn 4 sorcery speed spell is next to useless
Tron - is landing a much bigger threat turn 3 or later. Karn can exile, Wurmcoil kills, and O Stone/Ugin can erase from the board.
Merfolk - will just overrun Jace's unsummon effect
Goryo's - not useful against it at all
So out of all of those decks, its useful against the one archetype it should be useful against Midrange.
JtMS is completely okay to unban but WotC and the community as a whole are way too scared of him from his days in Standard.... even though the fear is unjustifiable.
Something I have been thinking of with the recent "mulligan scry trial" would be if WotC did a trial unbanning for a single season for some of the more scary banned cards.
Cards like JtMS, SFM, Dread Return etc.
If they did a trial unbanning to see what happens to the format for a season. They could make it very clear that the unbanning is just for the season and that there is no guarantee that it will continue into the next season. Then all this, "it was broken in Standard so it cant be released into Modern" or "it would KILL THE FORMAT" arguments would actually have some data behind it.
WotC is clearly willing to warp a single season with a completely new rule change so maybe this is something they could do in the future.
The rule change doesn't require people to invest in potentially expensive new cards for one season and have them devalued when they're rebanned.
But your not forced to invest in cards at all. Just because something is unbanned does nto mean you have to play it or changes decks. And there are tons of people out there, who have those cards already (they play EDH or Legacy or played in Standard when they are legal) who can change their decks to incorporate it. And if you choose to invest in those cards, you do so knowing that they can get rebanned (which by the way, is almost exactly how Modern is right now. You can not invest into a deck without knowing that it could get banned at anytime ie Pod).
So guys.. i'm supposed to sell it, aren't i? I do think any Hive mind, Summer Bloom, or something like that ban will definitely murder the deck, it won't become just less effective as storm did, it will disappear
Personally im building (buying) this deck now. Im bit worried about possible bans but thenagain it always may be the case and cant live in constant fear and not to play deck I wish to play. I doubt they will ban anything in next BR announcement, maybe next one in autumn then, hopefully not.
This ^
IF you are buying into Modern and it isnt Twin or BGx, then you buy knowing that your deck could get banned. Its super unfortunate, but WotC has proven that they can and will ban anything they do not like (see Pod banning).
These kinds of statements are useless and can be applied to any deck. I have seen decks mulligan to 4 and win; ban mulliganing its broken!
I have seen Affinity decks win through a turn 2 stony silence and a turn 4 shatterstorm.
I have seen burn win through Leyline of Sanctity and 2x Timely Reinforcements
ETC ETC
The only thing that matters is a) is the deck warping the format (easy no, since its 3% of the current meta) b) is the deck winning too many tournaments (no, it hasnt won any and has a handful of good finishes) c) does the deck win consistently before turn 4. C is the only one that even comes close and since we have no idea what WotC's definition of consistently is, we can only guess.
After months of playing the deck (which I sold so it being banned or not matters nothing to be now) it does not, IMO, break that rule.
The problem it has is the same that so many sideboard cards have; it is not an insta-win against the decks you bring it in against (like Blood Moon) and while it slows them down, it does not provide a clock or lock them out.
For what must be the 10000th time in this thread, the rule is NOT does it win before turn 4. The rule is that it CONSISTENTLY wins before turn 4. Storm was banned because it killed like 40% of the time before turn 4 (I dont know if there is an actual solid number out there, but that is the number that was thrown around a lot it could be wrong).
So yes, while they can and do win before turn 4, the question is do they do it consistently enough to ban them. After playing both of them (though I played the Grixis Fury version of Goryos so I can not say for certain if the Shoal version is better or worse) they do not. The turn 2/3 wins are easily balanced within the deck by how often the deck beats itself (i won 1 game for every 2 that i lost due to mulligans or just never drawing what I needed)
And while I understand that the internal balance of the deck is not any comfort to the player who just got turn 2ed, oh well. Thats magic.
It's because the ppl crying for certain combos to be banned (Goryo's and Amulet) do not play the deck so their only interaction with the deck is when they play against it. Of course they do not post about when they beat the deck because their opponent mulliganed into oblivion or drew nothing and lost in 10 turns. They only remember the one time the combo deck did what it was supposed to do and go off in a reasonable time frame and they lost.
Just look at the guy who posted just above you with his screenshot, his hand is 4 lands and a looting....... I'm sorry you kept a bad hand against a combo deck (or that you mulliganed and got screwed) but thats not the combo decks fault..... if it had been an affinity deck, they would have had you half dead and unless that faithless looting hit Spirit Guide and Pyroclasm you were prolly dead anyways.
This is the problem w this thread in a nutshell (not trying to pick on you its just a great example). Half the posts boil down to this mindset... " i dont like playing against deck X so it should be banned".
Thats not how bans should be handled; it should be handled purely based on the health and diversity of the field, not bc it makes u sad to play against it. If u read half of the Bloom ban comments they are "i hate that they killed me on turn 3, i was about to kill him next turn".
Bans decks bc they give u the sads is a dumb way to rule the format bc every deck hss ppl who hate playing against it, so your deck could easily be the next
This is a joke right?
CoCo requires nothing from your hand, other than casting CoCo.
Summerbloom requires you have 3 lands IN YOUR HAND. They are nothing alike.
I know its the cool thing to hate on Summerbloom/Amulet, I mean all the Pros are doing it, so lets follow suit. But jesus, at least make sense when your doing it.
I think ppl look at the Pod banning and, almost immediately after, we get CoCo. CoCo, is very arguably, a toned down version of Pod; it was the feel of what most people would argue is what Modern power level should be. Something that has a one-time powerful effect on the boardstate but that is easy to interact with (its just an instant) and a reasonable CMC.
I dont personally believe that WotC is looking at cards in Modern and saying "This too strong, lets make a "fixed" version, ban the broken one and reason it". But I do think WotC liked what Pod did in Modern, got ppl to play with lots of creatures, play "weaker" creatures that did not see the most play (Seer, Voice, Melira, Redcap, etc) but had some great synergy, so they printed a Pod 2.0 that they could more easily control.
Arguing for a Snap ban is dumb; Blue has almost no source of card advantage that is currently playable (hell, ppl are forced to play Think Twice just to find some form of card advantage) and that is supposed to be BLUE'S THING.
You and me both..... oh what I would do for that card in Modern..... so good.
Well grats to you, but I do not think paying a months rent on 4 pieces of cardboard is worthwhile. Especially when there is no good reason for the cards to be so expensive.
And how would it ruin your draft experience? goyf was in both MM and MM2 and it didnt ruin anyone's draft experience. Lilly was in innistrad and that set was drafted insanely. JtMS, printed with him in mind for a draft set, could be done very well and very interestly. Add some lightning bolts, Wipe Aways and Heroe's Downfall and he is easily contained.
Please point out how Jace would be format warping?
I made a long list of the ways current tier 1/1.5 decks would ignore him or just dont care about him. DRS, is definitely format warping, we have proof of that. He is just too good for his CMC 1, giving 2 different colours access to abilities they shouldnt have (G gets reach, B gets life gain/mana fixing&ramp). But lumping JtMS in with DRS is a joke. JtMS has a CMC of 4, which is a death sentence in Modern, has a cost of 2UU which makes him harder to splash and has very little effect on the game state when it comes into play. Yes, he is extremely strong if you can land him and control the board for a few more turns but so what? At CMC 4 a card that comes down and stays SHOULD be strong.
@ ppl who say Twin would jam 4 JtMS.... really? the whole point of the deck is that it runs at instant speed, forcing your opponent to play awkwardly. Jamming 4 CMC 4 sorcery that do not win the game when they come down seems ambitious to say the least. Maybe I'm wrong but I just do not think the pros outway the building deck costs for Twin.
This is definitely a concern but should not be a reason to keep something on the ban list.
There are solutions to the problem; its actually a problem for a bunch of cards (lilly, goyf etc) that all need to be reprinted in number beyond what supplements like MM allow. It has been over a month now, and Goyf has not really dropped in price, even though its been printed in 2 separate supplements now.
Some solutions are: pre-ban the cards before the set is released for Standard, so that people know they will not be allowed in Standard but you are using it as a reprint program. OR build the set with those cards in mind; it was actually something I was hoping they do with Origins but it did not happen.
Thats the thing though, there is no current tier 1 or even tier 1.5 deck that cant deal with it, so its not meta defining.
Burn - is killing on turn 4 usually and is so redundant that fatesealing is next to useless, he gains u no life when it comes down and bouncing their creatures is a joke (2 have haste, other one isnt usually attacking)
Twin - plays a ton of counters, so can stop Jace from coming down on curve and can be comboing out on turn 4
CoCo - depending on build, can be comboing out, dropping a ton of creatures to blank Jace unsummon or if Elves is killing you with Overrun
Junk/Jund - If you can keep the board clean, this deck should have trouble with him, but thats the point, he is great against Midrange decks
Affinity - HA, non-board wipe turn 4 play?! NEXT
Bloom - again, turn 4 sorcery speed spell is next to useless
Tron - is landing a much bigger threat turn 3 or later. Karn can exile, Wurmcoil kills, and O Stone/Ugin can erase from the board.
Merfolk - will just overrun Jace's unsummon effect
Goryo's - not useful against it at all
So out of all of those decks, its useful against the one archetype it should be useful against Midrange.
JtMS is completely okay to unban but WotC and the community as a whole are way too scared of him from his days in Standard.... even though the fear is unjustifiable.
But your not forced to invest in cards at all. Just because something is unbanned does nto mean you have to play it or changes decks. And there are tons of people out there, who have those cards already (they play EDH or Legacy or played in Standard when they are legal) who can change their decks to incorporate it. And if you choose to invest in those cards, you do so knowing that they can get rebanned (which by the way, is almost exactly how Modern is right now. You can not invest into a deck without knowing that it could get banned at anytime ie Pod).
This ^
IF you are buying into Modern and it isnt Twin or BGx, then you buy knowing that your deck could get banned. Its super unfortunate, but WotC has proven that they can and will ban anything they do not like (see Pod banning).