Something I have been thinking of with the recent "mulligan scry trial" would be if WotC did a trial unbanning for a single season for some of the more scary banned cards.
Cards like JtMS, SFM, Dread Return etc.
If they did a trial unbanning to see what happens to the format for a season. They could make it very clear that the unbanning is just for the season and that there is no guarantee that it will continue into the next season. Then all this, "it was broken in Standard so it cant be released into Modern" or "it would KILL THE FORMAT" arguments would actually have some data behind it.
WotC is clearly willing to warp a single season with a completely new rule change so maybe this is something they could do in the future.
So with so many decks in the format currently depending on, or at least using their graveyard heavily, what decks or synergies exist to a main decked Rest in Peace
Decks that are in the format that currently use or depend on their graveyard are:
Bans: Blood Moon. I do not think the card is overpowered but I do think that having a card that is almost a 1-card wincon against so many decks being only available in one colour is too strong. If there was a comparable card in all the colours (or at least a few more), then it would be fine but it being available in only 1 colour gives R too much play and reason to be splashed in decks.
Unbans: AV, SotM, JtMS, DTT, BBE, Preordain, Top.
Yes, its a lot of unbans. Yes it would shake up the format a lot but I think right now decks that try to go later than turn 4 are being pushed out of the format (and by going later than turn 4, I mean decks that do not have a huge powerplay landing before turn 4) and so we need reasons to go later. All the cards on the list beside Pre and Top, are CMC 4 or do no come "online" until after turn 4 (Sword needs Thopter and mana to go online, which cant really happen until turn 4).
A lot of people complain about decks winning before turn 4 (Goryo's Bloom etc) but those decks exist because there is no real incentive for ppl to take a game longer. So give them some.
I know the flaming is coming but that was my vote.
You want decks that go later to be better yet you suggest preordain unban? Cantrips are a 100 times better in combo decks than grindy decks.
While combo decks that play U would get better with Preordain, most combo decks in Modern fold to specific sideboard cards. Preordain would allow fairer decks to find those cards with most consistency. You are right, it might end up making combo decks too good, and might need to be re-banned but since Modern has never had it, we can never know.
Bans: Blood Moon. I do not think the card is overpowered but I do think that having a card that is almost a 1-card wincon against so many decks being only available in one colour is too strong. If there was a comparable card in all the colours (or at least a few more), then it would be fine but it being available in only 1 colour gives R too much play and reason to be splashed in decks.
Unbans: AV, SotM, JtMS, DTT, BBE, Preordain, Top.
Yes, its a lot of unbans. Yes it would shake up the format a lot but I think right now decks that try to go later than turn 4 are being pushed out of the format (and by going later than turn 4, I mean decks that do not have a huge powerplay landing before turn 4) and so we need reasons to go later. All the cards on the list beside Pre and Top, are CMC 4 or do no come "online" until after turn 4 (Sword needs Thopter and mana to go online, which cant really happen until turn 4).
A lot of people complain about decks winning before turn 4 (Goryo's Bloom etc) but those decks exist because there is no real incentive for ppl to take a game longer. So give them some.
I know the flaming is coming but that was my vote.
Your argument does not make a lot of sense. If Goyf, Lilly, Abrupt Decay etc can compete in a format where the "broken" Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW etc exist then how is a format where they exist but the broken ones dont balanced?
Now I am not saying Brainstorm or Ponder etc should be in Modern; but to say that Serum Visions/Remand are of equal powerlevel with their BG Legacy brother is insane. Serum Visions/Remand see no play in Legacy (obviously because the alternatives are much better) where Goyf, Lilly, Abrupt Decay see a quite a bit.
It is definitely an argument that spells like Preordain or Ponder would make Twin too good; but that does not mean we dont need some improvement for card draw/selection in U.
- you must not crack a fetch to cast Delver
- you must not Probe them
If any of these conditions are not fulfilled, the mulligan rule doesn't offer you any advantage over, say, Twin casting Serum Visions.
How with these 2? I dont doubt ya, just wanting to know.
Bc if u crack the fetch to get a land u have shuffled away the scry to flip the delver. If u cast probe u draw the cast u had set up to flip the delver.
Unless I am missing something, about Hallowed Moonlight you have to cast it in response to CoCo, they can just choose not to pick any creature correct? Making it just a counterspell that cantrips as well?
Infinite Obliteration seems like it could see some play, as there are a quite a few decks that rely on 1 or 2 sets of creatures for winning (Bloom, Griselbrand, RG Breach, RG Tron etc; even decks like Jund/Junk how having Goyfs/Tasigurs and then a few one ofs as threats). If you know the meta well and know what you are up against, it seems like it could be a 4 for 1 early enough in the game
It wasn't that long ago that a BUG control list won a tournament. It had damnation, ashiok, jace, counterspells, and removal. Yeah, it played goyf and tasiguir, but it was a control deck.
A grixis control deck with Damnation, ashiok, and Jace could be good.
You could always try for a black smallpox control deck with Bloodghast, kitchen finks, Abrupt decay, and tasiguir.
Or play a controlling version of jund that has anger of the gods, courser of kruphix, chandra pyromaster, and Garruck, Primal Hunter MB.
Just because SCG, channelfireball or some other mtg website slaps a "control" label onto the list, does not a control deck make.
"Ignore everyone who writes for the game for a living, listen to me and my opinion?"
These are the same people who said Narset was going to take over Standard, or that JtMS was going to be unplayable in its Standard format?
Yes, even people who play MtG for a living can make a mistake.
Playing a few boardwipes main board does not make a control deck. A deck can play control elements without being a control deck; I do not understand why this is so hard to understand. Aggro, Midrange and control are labels we use to describe the general playstyle of a deck but it is not black and white labels; those labels are a spectrum not rigid hard fast labels. Fabiano's BUG deck is more controlly-midrange than say Junk but it is less controlling than an Esper draw-go deck. But people want short board-strokes labels so sites like SCG or CFB or MTG's own website saying BUG control or Grixis control when they really shouldnt.
It wasn't that long ago that a BUG control list won a tournament. It had damnation, ashiok, jace, counterspells, and removal. Yeah, it played goyf and tasiguir, but it was a control deck.
A grixis control deck with Damnation, ashiok, and Jace could be good.
You could always try for a black smallpox control deck with Bloodghast, kitchen finks, Abrupt decay, and tasiguir.
Or play a controlling version of jund that has anger of the gods, courser of kruphix, chandra pyromaster, and Garruck, Primal Hunter MB.
Just because SCG, channelfireball or some other mtg website slaps a "control" label onto the list, does not a control deck make. that BUG list was midrange, through and through. It landed a good, value threat (tasigur/goyf/ashiok) then kept the board clear and rode it to victory. It also had a slightly longer game plan in mind (damnation/thragtusk) but it was not a control deck.
The new (well not new but popular) Chapin Grixis list is the same
I dont understand why its to hard to understand the difference between a "control" deck and a deck that sometimes takes the "control" position in a match up.
There is a huge difference between the two:
"Control" decks always take the control position in any match up; Uxx draw go decks are the easiest to use as an example (current UB control in standard)
Decks like Twin, are not control decks but can and often do, take on the controlling position in particular match ups. But just because it can does not mean it has to (like a real control deck). Every deck in every format has some sort of "control" aspects; things like discard or removal are "controlling" parts of every deck, as in they control the board state. Everything is a matter of degrees.
Is anyone still playing the non-Shoal version of this deck?
Joe Lossett (sp?) has been playing the Grixis serum powder/gemstone mine version on stream and at PPTQs for the last little while and seems to be doing well with it.
I dont have the exact decklist but its fairly standard Fury version with some Serum Powders and Gemstones Mines to help be extra explosive.
This is flat out false. Wizards has mgto data on consistency. Storm wasn't winning a lot but was still too consistent. Consistency is NOT being used as justification to just ban decks that are unpopular with the majority. You've been around long enough to know better izzet, don't spread this fear mongering nonsense.
I dont think he is talking about WotC's view but the community's view. Just look back over this thread; Bloom does well at the PT, everyone screams for a ban. It does not show for a while, people say its safe from Bans. It places 2nd at the SCG invitional, the ban screams are everywhere. Now, in the last GP, it doesnt top 16, so its safe to leave alone.
I have been saying it for a long time, Twin needs to be banned so that Blue, as a whole, can get some cards off the ban list. DDT, Preordain, AV, maybe even Jace (not all at the same time but some combination). Yes, there are answers to the Twin combo; but just the threat of the combo forces the opponent to play 1-3 lands behind, since they have to leave that mana open at all times just because they can die if they ever tap out. And its not like the deck isnt strong without the combo; which gives the deck an advantage in the sideboard games since the opponent has to try to sideboard in more hate for the combo, which they can just side out and now the opponent is lands below and has dead cards in the deck.
I am not saying its unbeatable or even oppressive; it just warps the meta too much and hurts an entire colour by it being in existence. It would suck to have to ban it, but it is something WotC should have done in the beginning like they did with a bunch of cards at the start.
And destroy a whole archetype just because you say you want blue colour to be crazy good(Cause it is SO GOOD right now)?
Except from that, Grixis Control is a 100% Tier 1 deck. Give the cards you said to that archetype and you will see a Snapcaster Mage ban RIGHT AWAY. And EVEN THEN blue archetype would be scary good and above tier 1.I dont get it....seeing signatures like "Free Modern" and hearing stuff like making UR controls invincible with cards that should never exist(DTT, Preordain, AV). Modern is in the BEST SHAPE that could ever be right now. Nothing needs ban, nothing needs fixing.
If you want to play blue, you can play Esper Control(tier 1.5 deck) or Grixis Control(tier 1) or even Grixis Delver. With Tasigur you have the bombs in your play now in addition to manlands.
With a lot of respect to TheNoob and to all of the other members in here, whoever wants to see -crazy good cards being Unbanned(AV, DTT etc) you should really go play legacy. The stuff you are describing is being played right there!
#gkourou
Except you have no evidence at all that any of those cards are broken. You can keep saying it all you want, but there has NEVER been a card pool like Modern in which DTT, AV or preordain has been legal. So all your " -crazy" is just theoretical... DTT was played when TC was legal, so we have no idea what a non-TC format with DTT looks like. AV/preordain have been banned since the start; even if you look at their Standard impact, you do not get a good picture since so many RtR and Innistrad cards have made a huge impact on Modern.
Grixis/Esper control are not tier 1 or 1.5 decks. ONE good preformance is NOT enough to say a deck is good. Hell, "top control" and Goryo's Vengeance decks placed in the top 8 and they are far from tier 1 decks. Tier =/= viable or competitive. Tier = consistent competitive finishes. There is a huge difference. Before Charlotte Esper/Grixis control (as well as Top/Goryo's) were not on the radar of competitive decks. It is the same thing with Sultai that Fabiano did well with a few months back. It has not had a top performance since.
All those decks prove is that: with a good pilot and a good meta deck you can do very well at a big tournament.
Twin is the reason a lot of the good blue cards are banned; if I have to kill an archetype to help balance out an entire colour in a format, I think it is worth it.
The question is not if Control is viable, the question is what is the point?
Unlike in Ravnica Standard or currently in Standard, where you have cards that reward you for going late; there is no reason to try to make the game go long in Modern right now.
The card pool in Modern is just too front end (by that I mean low CMC) powerful. Look at a card like Tasigur or Goyf. You get a huge body for extremely low CMC. Why play CMC 7 creatures like Pearl Lake (using as an example bc it is the closer of choice for UB standard control) that are almost or sometime even, outclassed by CMC 2 creatures. There are just no reasons or rewards for going long in Modern. At least in Standard and Legacy there are: Miracles has the top/balance lock, Lands has Stage/Depths etc.
How wrong would I be in saying unbanning Stoneforge Mistic would be like unbanning Golgari Grave Troll?
Yes, it is a really powerful card, but it honestly seems underpowered in the current meta.
None of the current tier 1-2 decks would run it, and it doesn't have the support in modern that it does in legacy to make esper stoneblade a thing.
What am I forgetting about that would somehow make it warp the format?
The reason I am curious about it is because it is the only one of the 5 overpowered 2 drops (one for each color) that is banned. Snapcaster, Goyf, DC, and YP (who barely makes the cut) are all in, but white is left without its 2 CMC champion. Is stoneforge THAT much more powerful than the others?
It would bring back Caw-blade which is what the fear is. I personally do not know if it would be overpowered. Batterskull is just not great in Modern right now, with all the 4/5 or bigger creatures that are dropping on turn 2 or 3 now (Goyf, Angler, Tasigur, Titan, KotR etc). Swords, the other equipment that would be run beside SFM, are almost non-existent in Modern. With Abrupt Decay and K Command as maindeck staples currently, I can not imagine Swords taking over.
Overall, I think SFM could be broken or could not be, but it will never get the chance. Just like JtMS, SFM left a really bad taste in WotC's mouth from its time in Standard and people are way too hung up on Standard as a measuring stick for Modern than they really should be.
This is flat out false. Wizards has mgto data on consistency. Storm wasn't winning a lot but was still too consistent. Consistency is NOT being used as justification to just ban decks that are unpopular with the majority. You've been around long enough to know better izzet, don't spread this fear mongering nonsense.
I dont think he is talking about WotC's view but the community's view. Just look back over this thread; Bloom does well at the PT, everyone screams for a ban. It does not show for a while, people say its safe from Bans. It places 2nd at the SCG invitional, the ban screams are everywhere. Now, in the last GP, it doesnt top 16, so its safe to leave alone.
I have been saying it for a long time, Twin needs to be banned so that Blue, as a whole, can get some cards off the ban list. DDT, Preordain, AV, maybe even Jace (not all at the same time but some combination). Yes, there are answers to the Twin combo; but just the threat of the combo forces the opponent to play 1-3 lands behind, since they have to leave that mana open at all times just because they can die if they ever tap out. And its not like the deck isnt strong without the combo; which gives the deck an advantage in the sideboard games since the opponent has to try to sideboard in more hate for the combo, which they can just side out and now the opponent is lands below and has dead cards in the deck.
I am not saying its unbeatable or even oppressive; it just warps the meta too much and hurts an entire colour by it being in existence. It would suck to have to ban it, but it is something WotC should have done in the beginning like they did with a bunch of cards at the start.
Cards like JtMS, SFM, Dread Return etc.
If they did a trial unbanning to see what happens to the format for a season. They could make it very clear that the unbanning is just for the season and that there is no guarantee that it will continue into the next season. Then all this, "it was broken in Standard so it cant be released into Modern" or "it would KILL THE FORMAT" arguments would actually have some data behind it.
WotC is clearly willing to warp a single season with a completely new rule change so maybe this is something they could do in the future.
Decks that are in the format that currently use or depend on their graveyard are:
- any delve variant (Grixis Control/delver/twin)
- CoCo combo
- Goyf/Ooze decks
- Goryo's
- Snapcaster decks
Now modern does not have obvious combos with Rest in Peace, like Helm of Obedience but there have to be some synergies out there.
Misthollow Griffin has some synergy; as it gives you a repeatable, hard to remove threat that can win the game. Anything else people can think of?
While combo decks that play U would get better with Preordain, most combo decks in Modern fold to specific sideboard cards. Preordain would allow fairer decks to find those cards with most consistency. You are right, it might end up making combo decks too good, and might need to be re-banned but since Modern has never had it, we can never know.
Unbans: AV, SotM, JtMS, DTT, BBE, Preordain, Top.
Yes, its a lot of unbans. Yes it would shake up the format a lot but I think right now decks that try to go later than turn 4 are being pushed out of the format (and by going later than turn 4, I mean decks that do not have a huge powerplay landing before turn 4) and so we need reasons to go later. All the cards on the list beside Pre and Top, are CMC 4 or do no come "online" until after turn 4 (Sword needs Thopter and mana to go online, which cant really happen until turn 4).
A lot of people complain about decks winning before turn 4 (Goryo's Bloom etc) but those decks exist because there is no real incentive for ppl to take a game longer. So give them some.
I know the flaming is coming but that was my vote.
Your argument does not make a lot of sense. If Goyf, Lilly, Abrupt Decay etc can compete in a format where the "broken" Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW etc exist then how is a format where they exist but the broken ones dont balanced?
Now I am not saying Brainstorm or Ponder etc should be in Modern; but to say that Serum Visions/Remand are of equal powerlevel with their BG Legacy brother is insane. Serum Visions/Remand see no play in Legacy (obviously because the alternatives are much better) where Goyf, Lilly, Abrupt Decay see a quite a bit.
It is definitely an argument that spells like Preordain or Ponder would make Twin too good; but that does not mean we dont need some improvement for card draw/selection in U.
Bc if u crack the fetch to get a land u have shuffled away the scry to flip the delver. If u cast probe u draw the cast u had set up to flip the delver.
Infinite Obliteration seems like it could see some play, as there are a quite a few decks that rely on 1 or 2 sets of creatures for winning (Bloom, Griselbrand, RG Breach, RG Tron etc; even decks like Jund/Junk how having Goyfs/Tasigurs and then a few one ofs as threats). If you know the meta well and know what you are up against, it seems like it could be a 4 for 1 early enough in the game
These are the same people who said Narset was going to take over Standard, or that JtMS was going to be unplayable in its Standard format?
Yes, even people who play MtG for a living can make a mistake.
Playing a few boardwipes main board does not make a control deck. A deck can play control elements without being a control deck; I do not understand why this is so hard to understand. Aggro, Midrange and control are labels we use to describe the general playstyle of a deck but it is not black and white labels; those labels are a spectrum not rigid hard fast labels. Fabiano's BUG deck is more controlly-midrange than say Junk but it is less controlling than an Esper draw-go deck. But people want short board-strokes labels so sites like SCG or CFB or MTG's own website saying BUG control or Grixis control when they really shouldnt.
Just because SCG, channelfireball or some other mtg website slaps a "control" label onto the list, does not a control deck make. that BUG list was midrange, through and through. It landed a good, value threat (tasigur/goyf/ashiok) then kept the board clear and rode it to victory. It also had a slightly longer game plan in mind (damnation/thragtusk) but it was not a control deck.
The new (well not new but popular) Chapin Grixis list is the same
There is a huge difference between the two:
"Control" decks always take the control position in any match up; Uxx draw go decks are the easiest to use as an example (current UB control in standard)
Decks like Twin, are not control decks but can and often do, take on the controlling position in particular match ups. But just because it can does not mean it has to (like a real control deck). Every deck in every format has some sort of "control" aspects; things like discard or removal are "controlling" parts of every deck, as in they control the board state. Everything is a matter of degrees.
Joe Lossett (sp?) has been playing the Grixis serum powder/gemstone mine version on stream and at PPTQs for the last little while and seems to be doing well with it.
I dont have the exact decklist but its fairly standard Fury version with some Serum Powders and Gemstones Mines to help be extra explosive.
Except you have no evidence at all that any of those cards are broken. You can keep saying it all you want, but there has NEVER been a card pool like Modern in which DTT, AV or preordain has been legal. So all your "
Grixis/Esper control are not tier 1 or 1.5 decks. ONE good preformance is NOT enough to say a deck is good. Hell, "top control" and Goryo's Vengeance decks placed in the top 8 and they are far from tier 1 decks. Tier =/= viable or competitive. Tier = consistent competitive finishes. There is a huge difference. Before Charlotte Esper/Grixis control (as well as Top/Goryo's) were not on the radar of competitive decks. It is the same thing with Sultai that Fabiano did well with a few months back. It has not had a top performance since.
All those decks prove is that: with a good pilot and a good meta deck you can do very well at a big tournament.
Twin is the reason a lot of the good blue cards are banned; if I have to kill an archetype to help balance out an entire colour in a format, I think it is worth it.
Unlike in Ravnica Standard or currently in Standard, where you have cards that reward you for going late; there is no reason to try to make the game go long in Modern right now.
The card pool in Modern is just too front end (by that I mean low CMC) powerful. Look at a card like Tasigur or Goyf. You get a huge body for extremely low CMC. Why play CMC 7 creatures like Pearl Lake (using as an example bc it is the closer of choice for UB standard control) that are almost or sometime even, outclassed by CMC 2 creatures. There are just no reasons or rewards for going long in Modern. At least in Standard and Legacy there are: Miracles has the top/balance lock, Lands has Stage/Depths etc.
It would bring back Caw-blade which is what the fear is. I personally do not know if it would be overpowered. Batterskull is just not great in Modern right now, with all the 4/5 or bigger creatures that are dropping on turn 2 or 3 now (Goyf, Angler, Tasigur, Titan, KotR etc). Swords, the other equipment that would be run beside SFM, are almost non-existent in Modern. With Abrupt Decay and K Command as maindeck staples currently, I can not imagine Swords taking over.
Overall, I think SFM could be broken or could not be, but it will never get the chance. Just like JtMS, SFM left a really bad taste in WotC's mouth from its time in Standard and people are way too hung up on Standard as a measuring stick for Modern than they really should be.
I dont think he is talking about WotC's view but the community's view. Just look back over this thread; Bloom does well at the PT, everyone screams for a ban. It does not show for a while, people say its safe from Bans. It places 2nd at the SCG invitional, the ban screams are everywhere. Now, in the last GP, it doesnt top 16, so its safe to leave alone.
I have been saying it for a long time, Twin needs to be banned so that Blue, as a whole, can get some cards off the ban list. DDT, Preordain, AV, maybe even Jace (not all at the same time but some combination). Yes, there are answers to the Twin combo; but just the threat of the combo forces the opponent to play 1-3 lands behind, since they have to leave that mana open at all times just because they can die if they ever tap out. And its not like the deck isnt strong without the combo; which gives the deck an advantage in the sideboard games since the opponent has to try to sideboard in more hate for the combo, which they can just side out and now the opponent is lands below and has dead cards in the deck.
I am not saying its unbeatable or even oppressive; it just warps the meta too much and hurts an entire colour by it being in existence. It would suck to have to ban it, but it is something WotC should have done in the beginning like they did with a bunch of cards at the start.