OH GOD I LEAVE FOR THREE DAYS AND WERE DELVING **** YEAH.
These new delve draw spells are so much more powerful and offer much more fast advantage than things like think twice. I am all aboard the delve train, ALSO I GET TO PLAY DIMIR CHARM **** YEAH
After much more testing with mystical teachings, I must agree with everyone that some cheaper draw power and general answers are better than a bunch of silver bullets
I was messing with the mana base and ended up cutting ghost quarter for more basics, being able to fetch around blood moon easier is a big thing for me, also being able to cast cryptic and wsz through bloodmoon
So ummm, say something personal came up and you suddenly don't have that cool 120 you had lying around for 2 cryptics around anymore, what would you replace them with.
No, in a format so dense with creature removal, counterspells and incidental lifegain running something like this is taint amount to suicide. It just seems like a strictly worse infect deck
I really don't understand your criticism of it doing nothing for the first several turns of the game because it's almost identical too my other list except with think twice replaced with teachings. That being said I made some modifications to the teachings deck making it closer too the original esper control deck
Also here is my argument for mystical teachings over think twice and a land. Mystical teachings allows for many interesting plays as it is a instant speed tutor, instead of going for the esper teachings route of teachings + a ****load of silver bullets I view teachings as another draw spell (even though it is not)
Teachings allows me to put cards from anywhere in my deck into my hand as long as they are instant allowing for some fancy plays with the pacts in the early game or simply another removal/counter spell later in the game. It can also find WSZ or Revelation in the lategame instead of just sitting there hoping my opponent does not topdeck his way back into the game. As for a land I have always been someone prone to playing on the low end of lands and to me 26, while perfectly reasonable feels weird to me.
It also allows silver bullets in the sideboard as well as functioning as a "extra copy" of any spell I could want
Sooooo, after testing two versions of this deck I truly am stuck, they are both incredibly fun to play (a slight edge to the teachings variant) and both very good for my meta, (only 1 tron deck) so I turn to you to which one you think is better.
I for one am all for the pure control but I must admit the 1 win condition is insane and needs to be rethought, yeah collanades are good but just a Elspeth, Gideon, or Batterskull can add so much resiliency
I was trying to point out what I think it has demonstrated to be true, not wanted to force anybody to play my deck. Chill out. I stand by my opinion that the black shell is superior and Cryptic Command is often over-rated and you may disagree, really. When results with Esper will be made we'll see who is right and who is wrong. I was just trying to input a different (to me better) approach. I won't bother anymore.
Lingering Souls in a flash deck is still often a nombo.
Two things, one is you came off kinda mean and disrespectful
Also while you are absolutely right about the nonbo lingering souls is just so damn good against so many decks that running it is worthwhile, also if you are afraid you don't have to tapout on turn three to play lingering souls. If you are afraid of a big threat you can hold off for a turn or two. I also agree with you the Cryptic is a bit overrated but its up to personal preference on what you play and how you play it.
Man I really like that setup for counterspells, I was feeling a bit light at 9 so this is helpful, only thing I can say is maybe switch one for logic knot
8-12 is good depending on whether you're running main deck disruption. Were you referring to my counter set up?
Yeah I was talking about the counter setup, I am still torn on maindeck disruption but am probably gonna keep it out and stick with a heavier removal and counterspell package
Man I really like that setup for counterspells, I was feeling a bit light at 9 so this is helpful, only thing I can say is maybe switch one for logic knot
Would Gideon, Champion of Justice not be better than Gideon Jura? He comes down a turn earlier, can get bigger than Gideon Jura, being indestructible is better than preventing damage and he has a decent ultimate. Or is the -2 ability of Gideon Jura that important in our deck?
Not only is his minus two much better his plus two can easily buy you a turn or two against an aggro deck.
Also I feel like this deck needs one stick it to win it card in the maindeck, there are a lot of good options but due to school I have not had enough time to test as I would like. The two I have been liking the most is Gideon and Batterskull and sorta Elspeth Suns Champion
It can be done if we opt for a combination of Spreading Seas/Fulminator Sage/Rain of Tears over the lack of Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter.
Is a mana disruption sweet nesscesary? I mean lots of decks have fragile mana but in my meta nobody has well developed mana bases, so in my meta it doesn't matter but what about a more developed one
These new delve draw spells are so much more powerful and offer much more fast advantage than things like think twice. I am all aboard the delve train, ALSO I GET TO PLAY DIMIR CHARM **** YEAH
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Esper Charm
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tolaria West
2x Watery Grave
2x Polluted Delta
2x Condescend
1x Mana Tithe
1x Pact of Negation
4x Rune Snag
3x Spell Snare
Winning (2)
1x Gideon Jura
1x White Sun's Zenith
Versatile (4)
2x Lingering Souls
2x Snapcaster Mage
Draw (7)
3x Mystical Teachings
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Think Twice
Removal (7)
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Smother
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Disenchant
1x Lingering Souls
1x Negate
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest for the Weary
2x Supreme Verdict
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I think it is pretty fun and look forward to trying it out at local events
I am asking for a friend
Also here is my argument for mystical teachings over think twice and a land. Mystical teachings allows for many interesting plays as it is a instant speed tutor, instead of going for the esper teachings route of teachings + a ****load of silver bullets I view teachings as another draw spell (even though it is not)
Teachings allows me to put cards from anywhere in my deck into my hand as long as they are instant allowing for some fancy plays with the pacts in the early game or simply another removal/counter spell later in the game. It can also find WSZ or Revelation in the lategame instead of just sitting there hoping my opponent does not topdeck his way back into the game. As for a land I have always been someone prone to playing on the low end of lands and to me 26, while perfectly reasonable feels weird to me.
It also allows silver bullets in the sideboard as well as functioning as a "extra copy" of any spell I could want
Here is the updated list BTW
2x Condescend
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Gideon Jura
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Lingering Souls
3x Mystical Teachings
1x Pact of Negation
4x Path to Exile
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Rune Snag
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Smother
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Swamp
1x Tolaria West
2x Watery Grave
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Disenchant
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Negate
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest for the Weary
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
This is the pure control deck without teachings
2x Condescend
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Cryptic Command
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4x Esper Charm
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Lingering Souls
1x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Rune Snag
2x Smother
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Swamp
2x Think Twice
2x Watery Grave
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Disenchant
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
2x Negate
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
This is the variant with teachings
2x Condescend
1x Consume the Meek
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Cryptic Command
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4x Esper Charm
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
4x Mystical Teachings
1x Pact of Negation
4x Path to Exile
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Rune Snag
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Smother
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Swamp
1x Think Twice
2x Watery Grave
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Disenchant
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
2x Negate
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Two things, one is you came off kinda mean and disrespectful
Also while you are absolutely right about the nonbo lingering souls is just so damn good against so many decks that running it is worthwhile, also if you are afraid you don't have to tapout on turn three to play lingering souls. If you are afraid of a big threat you can hold off for a turn or two. I also agree with you the Cryptic is a bit overrated but its up to personal preference on what you play and how you play it.
Yeah I was talking about the counter setup, I am still torn on maindeck disruption but am probably gonna keep it out and stick with a heavier removal and counterspell package
Not only is his minus two much better his plus two can easily buy you a turn or two against an aggro deck.
Also I feel like this deck needs one stick it to win it card in the maindeck, there are a lot of good options but due to school I have not had enough time to test as I would like. The two I have been liking the most is Gideon and Batterskull and sorta Elspeth Suns Champion
Is a mana disruption sweet nesscesary? I mean lots of decks have fragile mana but in my meta nobody has well developed mana bases, so in my meta it doesn't matter but what about a more developed one