@Zabuza :
Cut a Mountain in your list. You never want 2 in a deck that relies so much on BB, and even BBB spells ! Big Game Hunter is a sideboard card. In a specific and narrow metagame, you could maindeck 2 copies, maybe. Voldaren Pariah probably has to be a 4-of, on the other hand. The card has the potential of being a great finisher for the archetype. It's a little bit nonbo with the Aristocrat though. Your feedback will be appreciated.
Turn 2: Land, Stromkirk Condemned, madness in Fiery Temper for 3 and swing for 3 with the Gorger.
How do you pay BB for the creature + R for the removal by Turn 2 ?
It's a worse Collected Company, and a worse Hero of Bladehold.
You get a vanilla 3/4 with no seductive stats or synergy. Being Bolt-proof doesn't mean much for a deck that will lose its first threats to Bolt anyway. Plus the creature matches poorly with Tarmogoyf, Kalitas and such, which is sthg I don't like to see on a creature for which I spent 1 more mana than its friends.
Looking at the "Top 4" increases the chances to whiff in comparison to Coco.
I think that the tribe can generate enough CA through: Dark Confidant, Thraben Inspector and Courageous Outrider to make A.Vial a very good option for the deck.
CA doesn't make Vial great imho. Vial is good when your deck can cheat creatures with blowout effects into play (Prison, huge synergy among the tribe), not just adding an extra card in your hand. You better run Coco for that type of value.
The new Spirit archetype, GW Hatebears, D&T and Merfolk are decks that take advantage of Vial that way. These decks play Flickerwisp, Selfless Spirit, Aven Mindcensor, Spell Queller, Merrow Reejery, etc... Because they want to control these effects, they don't run Coco for the most part.
I'm quite familiar with its max theoretical power, and it can certainly make the deck more explosive, better at coming back when down, better at searching for SB cards... but I disagree that it makes the deck more consistent – rather, I feel that it does the opposite. The top of your curve is literally a random lottery
It's not an Elves deck. In Elves, which is a deck I play a lot, yes this lottery feeling is there because we run 16 1-drops and 8 2-drops that don't have an impactful effect on the game.
But in Humans, you plays cards that are more impactful on their own.
I think you guys need to try Collected Company into Mantis Rider and Hanweir Garrison, or into 2 Lords that pump those 3-drops already on the battlefield, or simply into any 2 humans that pump the Lieutenants and Champions already on the battlefield. This is where Coco is very strong, just try it !
Landing CoCo on T3 might keep you even or ahead on card parity against fair decks like Jund, but that isn't a solution for matchups where early interaction is required to stop something degenerate. I think this is what Craig Wescoe said about his Mardu build not having any incredible matchups but at least having solid game against anyone.
With Coco, you can hit interaction via Fiend Hunter, Reflector mage, Meddling Mage, Grim Lavamancer, even Mantis Rider (blocks Affinity and Nexus in Infect), Thalias... In the sideboard you have silver bullets too. Coco is a solution to me... as it is in Elves and Melira Combo.
Wescoe's list is fairly underpowered, it relies on a very fair game plan. It's hard to make an unfair Human list, but without Coco it's gonna be impossible to have these powerful plays. Abbot of Keral Keep makes deckbuilding very narrow, the card almost never gets pumped via Prowess and still reveals bad or uncastable cards, even with no 4-drop in the list.
In terms of nonbo, he runs 3 Thalias and 16 non-creature spells, which makes Abbot even worse.
4 Mutavaults with only 4 Lieutenants to pump them...
There's a lot of things to say about his list, it spreads its focus, so he can draw the wrong half of the deck and do nothing. It's clearly what makes brews bad : the plan isn't clear, or is cut into 2 different strategies. So I wouldn't say his approach makes the deck more consistent because it has game against anything when he draws the right cards. Actually, playing 30+ creatures and Coco sounds like a clear and consistent plan.
In other words, if you play 18 spells that Mardu Midrange runs already, why would you try to fit the tribe in that archetype ? I see it as 2 half-archetypes melded into an eldrazi abomination.
These hands are good and set up for a classic beatdown plan. I doubt you get no payoff with a Lead or Coco, or it's called a miss. If those hands are not good enough, it's because your opponent drew better. It happens.
Syreal's point is very important nonetheless, and I would bet some of the games you're talking about involved a sketchy opening hand. Sometimes we lose to a greedy keep. The mulligan decision may be the hardest part of a game with Elves, since we get to see a lot of them in comparison to other decks.
With Vapor Snag over Path to Exile to test out how bouncing Rattlechains, Queller and Geist blockers goes. Then come back to a split as it might be the best option after all, exactly like Merfolk that runs 2 Dismember + 2 other blue spells.
With Favorable Winds to see how good pumping is for Wanderer and Queller (bolt-proof).
With Moorland Haunt as extra pressure, because why not. And 3 Ghost Quarters. I assume we can push the manabase a little bit since we don't need UU or WW, as opposed to BW Tokens (WWrequirements, even WWW for Procession) or Merfolk (which play 4 Mutavaults btw).
I agree with you, and your arguments should be considered by everyone in this topic. Coco into a hasty Mantis Rider, a lord, or an interactive card is a good play. When you hit 2 of these kinds, it's great.
I don't think we want 8 mana dorks though, I'm not even sold on the 6 the japanese guy played. Coco is good in Humans when we hit impactful cards. I personally am very confident with 4 Hierarchs.
Vial is bad in the archetype, not enough lords, not enough shenanigans involved.
About Grim Flayer, it has to be considered as a 2/2, never a 4/4. A human has to fit the Human plan, we won't build a deck around a single human that has no synergies with the rest of the pool of cards available in Modern. We'll have lands, creatures and instants in the graveyard, and that's it.
From there, being a 2/2 Trample, you obviously want Lieutenant, Mayor and Anafenza, the Foremost to be there and pump it. It's playable in the Abzan(splash) versions !
@Mikeduges : thanks !
Finals G2, the dredge player did something super suspicious : he neonates a GGT end of opponent's turn and dredge instead of drawing, then forgets to put the GGT in hand. So next upkeep he tries to GGT again... hopefully his Elves opponent stops him and fixes the play. Very sloppy !
Wescoe focused on low costs for the Abbots. That card is less playable if you run many 3+ drops. Hanweir Garrison is the new major reason to play red.
the manabase certainly becomes less consistent.
Notmuch. It becomes more painful though, but that's quite minor. I don't think that's a fair argument, it's quite doable to play 4 colours with 4 Cavern of Souls, so 3 is easy.
Humans can really go towards the Slivers and Allies direction, i.e. playing the best of the tribe, no matter the colours. It's just sad that Humans don't have a dedicated land for the tribe, that would be bonkers.
As for the Shaman is he really required? wouldn't just old fashioned craterhoof beatdown be just as effective or is the fact that shaman is immediate damage that cannot be "Fogged" what makes him more appealing?
Shaman is one very unique way to reach and win. This is the one card that makes the BG version as good if not better than the other versions. The deck is less cumfortable to play because of a poorer SB, but the Shaman plan is well positionned in the format.
The Hoof is pretty hard to get online because the format answers very well our mana guys. It's safer and more consistent to rely on lower costs. Ezuri is often played for 3 and used the next turn only. Pretty hard to cast and use within the same turn when your mana dorks and mana engines get bolted as soon as they touch the board...
When you cast Shaman of the Pack does it count towards your total # of elves
Yes. The opponent and yourself can respond to the trigger to decrease or increase the amount of Elves before the trigger resolves though (opponent's removal, your own Coco).
hit 2 Shaman of the Pack would they trigger simultaneously for a total of 4 damage
Yes. They enter the battlefield at the same time and see eachother. They will both count for each separate trigger.
if you hit Joraga Warcaller with Collected Company [...] are you able to spend mana to kick it?
Thalia and CoCo together is rather odd...
And what is Jace, Vryn's prodigy here for ?
If it's to replay CoCo than Snapcaster Mage/Eternal Witness make much more sense.
Overall I'm not a fan of this list.
Thalia as a 2-of is probably fine. I changed my list and will try her, but I'm not sold. The thing is against non-creature based decks, Coco doesn't need to be played quickly, it's rather a slow-rolled spell to refuel the board when you have no pressure going.
Jace is weird indeed, it rebuys Coco and PtE, but I think its main purpose is to stop Infect and Affinity. It's close to Grim Lavamancer's utility.
What is the opinion on my W/B deck idea ?
I think your list has been tested already, and going forward, new spoilers need to be added to turn your list into something more impactful.
The pool of cards available doesn't make Aether Vial worth playing, but Coco definitely is. I also believe playing at least 3 colours just help doing more powerful things. Maybe you can try to add Red, maybe a list that looks like mine but with Black instead of Green ?
As it stands, I think 2 colored versions are too cute.
There's also Elixir of Immortality, probably less conditional than Feed the Clan because you won't always have your 5/Xs on the battlefield when you have to gain life (against super aggro decks). It's also findable with Ancient Stirrings and plays around Skullcrack effects, and more situationally doesn't ping you for 1 life because of Yavimaya Coast.
Well, Exarch's always had a few things for him :
- he can take a land or PW from Tron,
- He loops with Lark,
- now he can take a Nahiri from Jeskai and Kiki Chord.
Playing these cards in main or SB is just tweaking though, I think most of the testing has to be done about the combo + Evo for now.
I have to say the Rider has been quite impressive, as other players have stated. All my MD 3-drops have 3 toughness in order to be out of range of many red spells / abilities (and possibly bolt-proof thanks to a pump).
It's difficult to find room for Bolt or Path when the list plays Coco, it's pretty much all-in.
Cut a Mountain in your list. You never want 2 in a deck that relies so much on BB, and even BBB spells !
Big Game Hunter is a sideboard card. In a specific and narrow metagame, you could maindeck 2 copies, maybe.
Voldaren Pariah probably has to be a 4-of, on the other hand. The card has the potential of being a great finisher for the archetype. It's a little bit nonbo with the Aristocrat though. Your feedback will be appreciated.
How do you pay BB for the creature + R for the removal by Turn 2 ?
It's a worse Collected Company, and a worse Hero of Bladehold.
You get a vanilla 3/4 with no seductive stats or synergy. Being Bolt-proof doesn't mean much for a deck that will lose its first threats to Bolt anyway. Plus the creature matches poorly with Tarmogoyf, Kalitas and such, which is sthg I don't like to see on a creature for which I spent 1 more mana than its friends.
Looking at the "Top 4" increases the chances to whiff in comparison to Coco.
CA doesn't make Vial great imho. Vial is good when your deck can cheat creatures with blowout effects into play (Prison, huge synergy among the tribe), not just adding an extra card in your hand. You better run Coco for that type of value.
The new Spirit archetype, GW Hatebears, D&T and Merfolk are decks that take advantage of Vial that way. These decks play Flickerwisp, Selfless Spirit, Aven Mindcensor, Spell Queller, Merrow Reejery, etc... Because they want to control these effects, they don't run Coco for the most part.
It's not an Elves deck. In Elves, which is a deck I play a lot, yes this lottery feeling is there because we run 16 1-drops and 8 2-drops that don't have an impactful effect on the game.
But in Humans, you plays cards that are more impactful on their own.
I think you guys need to try Collected Company into Mantis Rider and Hanweir Garrison, or into 2 Lords that pump those 3-drops already on the battlefield, or simply into any 2 humans that pump the Lieutenants and Champions already on the battlefield. This is where Coco is very strong, just try it !
With Coco, you can hit interaction via Fiend Hunter, Reflector mage, Meddling Mage, Grim Lavamancer, even Mantis Rider (blocks Affinity and Nexus in Infect), Thalias... In the sideboard you have silver bullets too. Coco is a solution to me... as it is in Elves and Melira Combo.
Wescoe's list is fairly underpowered, it relies on a very fair game plan. It's hard to make an unfair Human list, but without Coco it's gonna be impossible to have these powerful plays. Abbot of Keral Keep makes deckbuilding very narrow, the card almost never gets pumped via Prowess and still reveals bad or uncastable cards, even with no 4-drop in the list.
In terms of nonbo, he runs 3 Thalias and 16 non-creature spells, which makes Abbot even worse.
4 Mutavaults with only 4 Lieutenants to pump them...
There's a lot of things to say about his list, it spreads its focus, so he can draw the wrong half of the deck and do nothing. It's clearly what makes brews bad : the plan isn't clear, or is cut into 2 different strategies. So I wouldn't say his approach makes the deck more consistent because it has game against anything when he draws the right cards. Actually, playing 30+ creatures and Coco sounds like a clear and consistent plan.
In other words, if you play 18 spells that Mardu Midrange runs already, why would you try to fit the tribe in that archetype ? I see it as 2 half-archetypes melded into an eldrazi abomination.
Syreal's point is very important nonetheless, and I would bet some of the games you're talking about involved a sketchy opening hand. Sometimes we lose to a greedy keep. The mulligan decision may be the hardest part of a game with Elves, since we get to see a lot of them in comparison to other decks.
Very nice one indeed !
I'd rather start with a stock list like that :
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Spell Queller
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Vapor Snag
4 Favorable Winds
4 Aether Vial
Lands:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Moorland Haunt
With Vapor Snag over Path to Exile to test out how bouncing Rattlechains, Queller and Geist blockers goes. Then come back to a split as it might be the best option after all, exactly like Merfolk that runs 2 Dismember + 2 other blue spells.
With Favorable Winds to see how good pumping is for Wanderer and Queller (bolt-proof).
With Moorland Haunt as extra pressure, because why not. And 3 Ghost Quarters. I assume we can push the manabase a little bit since we don't need UU or WW, as opposed to BW Tokens (WWrequirements, even WWW for Procession) or Merfolk (which play 4 Mutavaults btw).
I don't think we want 8 mana dorks though, I'm not even sold on the 6 the japanese guy played. Coco is good in Humans when we hit impactful cards. I personally am very confident with 4 Hierarchs.
Vial is bad in the archetype, not enough lords, not enough shenanigans involved.
About Grim Flayer, it has to be considered as a 2/2, never a 4/4. A human has to fit the Human plan, we won't build a deck around a single human that has no synergies with the rest of the pool of cards available in Modern. We'll have lands, creatures and instants in the graveyard, and that's it.
From there, being a 2/2 Trample, you obviously want Lieutenant, Mayor and Anafenza, the Foremost to be there and pump it. It's playable in the Abzan(splash) versions !
Finals G2, the dredge player did something super suspicious : he neonates a GGT end of opponent's turn and dredge instead of drawing, then forgets to put the GGT in hand. So next upkeep he tries to GGT again... hopefully his Elves opponent stops him and fixes the play. Very sloppy !
Wescoe focused on low costs for the Abbots. That card is less playable if you run many 3+ drops.
Hanweir Garrison is the new major reason to play red.
Notmuch. It becomes more painful though, but that's quite minor. I don't think that's a fair argument, it's quite doable to play 4 colours with 4 Cavern of Souls, so 3 is easy.
Humans can really go towards the Slivers and Allies direction, i.e. playing the best of the tribe, no matter the colours. It's just sad that Humans don't have a dedicated land for the tribe, that would be bonkers.
Shaman is one very unique way to reach and win. This is the one card that makes the BG version as good if not better than the other versions. The deck is less cumfortable to play because of a poorer SB, but the Shaman plan is well positionned in the format.
The Hoof is pretty hard to get online because the format answers very well our mana guys. It's safer and more consistent to rely on lower costs. Ezuri is often played for 3 and used the next turn only. Pretty hard to cast and use within the same turn when your mana dorks and mana engines get bolted as soon as they touch the board...
Yes. The opponent and yourself can respond to the trigger to decrease or increase the amount of Elves before the trigger resolves though (opponent's removal, your own Coco).
Yes. They enter the battlefield at the same time and see eachother. They will both count for each separate trigger.
No.
Thalia as a 2-of is probably fine. I changed my list and will try her, but I'm not sold. The thing is against non-creature based decks, Coco doesn't need to be played quickly, it's rather a slow-rolled spell to refuel the board when you have no pressure going.
Jace is weird indeed, it rebuys Coco and PtE, but I think its main purpose is to stop Infect and Affinity. It's close to Grim Lavamancer's utility.
I think your list has been tested already, and going forward, new spoilers need to be added to turn your list into something more impactful.
The pool of cards available doesn't make Aether Vial worth playing, but Coco definitely is. I also believe playing at least 3 colours just help doing more powerful things. Maybe you can try to add Red, maybe a list that looks like mine but with Black instead of Green ?
As it stands, I think 2 colored versions are too cute.
~~ 1W
Flying
Sac ~~ : creatures you control gain indestructible until eot.
2/1
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/category/detail/2992
4 Mantis Rider
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Meddling Mage
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Collected Company
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Meddling Mage
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Feed the Clan
1 Natural State
1 Rest in Peace
Lone Missionary looks best with Displacer. Thragtusk is too slow.
- he can take a land or PW from Tron,
- He loops with Lark,
- now he can take a Nahiri from Jeskai and Kiki Chord.
Playing these cards in main or SB is just tweaking though, I think most of the testing has to be done about the combo + Evo for now.
4 Mantis Rider
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Grim lavamancer
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Lantern Scout
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
I have to say the Rider has been quite impressive, as other players have stated. All my MD 3-drops have 3 toughness in order to be out of range of many red spells / abilities (and possibly bolt-proof thanks to a pump).
It's difficult to find room for Bolt or Path when the list plays Coco, it's pretty much all-in.