@Aazadan : thanks for your input.
I may note lifeloss in my games, it doesn't seem like a huge effort to make. I'm afraid it takes a huge amount of games though, in order to have comparable data with you. Another important data is to note times we get mana-screwed and lose because of that. Do 2 extra-fetchlands fix it ? How many times does it happen because of Gavony Township ?
Pod players don't need 10 fetches to top8 in tournaments, and one of the reason why they don't go over 8 is tempo. Yes sometimes you can get your basics, but sometimes you need to get a shockland untapped to stay on curve, not lose tempo. Instead you could play a Thicket/Cemetery and save 3 life. Decisions can become more difficult than they should be.
On the other hand, I can completely understand a 9th fetch, but definitely not the 10th.
@Lectrys : Interesting feedback. Sabertooth also looks good aginst Tron : it fizzles lifelink from WCE and saves a creature from Karn (kind of a Spellskite's ability here). He also does a good job VS Oblivion Stone and Pyroclasm. Recurring Exarchs or Restos is great too.
On its own, it's still a clock. He's in the slot of the 2nd Restoration Angel, or the 4th Siege Rhino, or ... where did you put it ?
@PM Drax : Shadowborn Demon could be even better with 1 Darkblast MB. It's a fringe choice that comes up to face Delver and Pod decks. You can -2/-2 a creature by playing it a 1st time during your upkeep, dredge it back and replay it. It's a way to put more guys in your gy. It can be good with another fringe new guy : the Sabertooth quoted above. You get back a Finks and replay it, so you can sac it indefinitely to Demon; or you can simply bounce Demon.
GR Tron is the worst popular MU. Game 1 against many decks can be pretty tough, depending on your build, your draws, the toss,... We tend to lose game 1 VS combo decks, and ultra-agressive decks* (*especially if we're on the draw, but the current Rhino builds have so much lifegain that it may have changed that a bit).
@Aazadan> how can PWs be bad against Pod ? We can't deal with a 4+cmc PW straight. On an empty board, I don't want my opponent to play Gideon, Karn, Chandra, Garruk or whatever. What is a vacuum against Pod for you ? It doesn't make much sense to me. Also I can quote you many examples where PWs don't need a sweeper to stay on board and win against Pod. PWs are mostly win cons, if they were bad cards "in a vacuum" (what a misunderstood and unclear word btw), they wouldn't see play.
Besides, your advice to play 9-10 fetchlands comes from your very personal opinion it's a better move than playing 8. I don't believe it's a good advice, especially with no strong argument to defend it. I personnally don't agree with the fact you lose less life by playing more fetchlands and more shocklands (your setup was 5 shocklands + 10 fetchlands a few days/weeks ago !), or that getting a basic with Flats is worth it (you can do it with the 8 others). Lately you're trying a lot of marginal things (along with avatsu), which is a very good thing, don't get me wrong. But it's odd to advise somebody who just arrives on this topic without precising you're actually on the fringe side of Pod players right now, with interesting but barely tested / experienced choices.
You don't cut 1 Thicket, but 2. I understand cutting one because the 3rd Thicket you draw is never a good topdeck. Marsh Flats can be a replacement, as Woodland Cemetery can be. It depends on your list. Cutting the 2nd Thicket for a fetch or a ravland though, you need a real good reason for that. A convincing thought process. I haven't read it yet.
BBV seems good as a 5-drop in a comboless Pod. The problem is it gets blocked by rhinos, and chumped by red decks which can finish it with some burn. I assume Rhinos are still better, easier to Pod and cast (Podcast ? ^^), faster clocks.
That kind of card can be played in a specific tournament, MB or SB. Now it's Delver and Pod time, the card is good. I do believe a 2nd Pontiff does the same job and is enough. Pontiff can be better at times, worse at other times. I wouldn't play Drakblast online or in a local tournament, even though I love the card.
Lingering Souls doesn't solve any problems,
This is wrong. The card is good against Delver. You force it through Leak / Pierce, it stops tokens, Delver, races back, buys time. It's a card you play at least x2 in your SB when you choose this path. When I started including the card (9 months ago I think), It didn't take me long to change my mind. Once you play it, you understand.
Now we can argue Affinity and Jund are not the decks to beat, where Souls over-perform. And other SB strats are perfectly fine right now.
I'm not sure on the blue plan yet. I like Trinket Mage, Glen Elendra, and Sower of Temptation, maybe Clique, and then there's Venser
The blue splash has been discussed a lot here and there. So far, the only worth-including creature in an Abzan version would be the Archmage. Blue mana requirements are so tenseful though that this splash is just not worth it.
Trinket Mage does nothing strong enough and takes at least 2 slots to work.
Sower is an anwer to Emrakul and such stupid creatures, most which die to Shriekmaw. And it's UU.
Clique is an ersatz of Sin Collector. And it's UU.
Venser is a tempo card, not what Pod wants. And it's UU.
A Sultai/Bant Pod will/may play these creatures, a U-splashed version can't, or doesn't need to.
There's other creatures like Biomancer, which is a bit like Thune : it's good alone, but you want to add a combo to make it even better. I don't see Thune without Feeder, as I don't see Biomancer without a sac outlet.
Kira is also a good one, as she saves Pod chains and creatures synergies by blanking spot removals. Though better fits in Sultai/Bant, once again.
I imagine I will go with the 4th Finks.
You can go for a Courser of Kruphix otherwise. I was happy to see LSV mention it as a card to maybe add right now (in his previous article). It's not easy to find a slot for her, but if you have one, she's worth considering.
Rhino is good and certainly worth including but Restoration Angel just does so much work
Well those who play Rhinos play 2 Restos as well. I'm not sure to understand what you mean here..?
She just isn't as good as another Rhino 90% of the time. She shines in Twin and Elves,
Linvala shines in the mirror and against Ascendancy, and a hundred other specific situations. It's enough for me to keep her MB. Overall, I think you can side out Spellskite or Linvala, but not both. Especially if you don't run the Thune combo. In the doubt, I keep everything since it's been working fine so far.
Basically we don't need to brew any further with Pod. The deck is so strong, a splash or a higher curve makes the deck clunkier. We just make adjustments in the SB, and lately, in the MB to counter the rise of red decks (directly buffed by blue delve spells). Local metagames may push us to deeper changes, and it's fun to play exotic cards, I won't argue with that.
I think Lectrys just said a single Roc was no better than Elemental + 2/2. Not sure it needs further debate. You're actually speaking of 2 cards that don't make the cut in Pod anyway.
Yep, my bad. Was late, took somebody else's misread as fact.
For some reason I considered for a sec manifested creatures would see them themselves add "when it's turned face-up, trigger their ETB". Which is absolutely not the case.
and thune is good. but not great. it has to survive two turns to be of any use without the feeder on board. it basically telegraphs what we are going to do
You're being severe here. Lark was already a good beater, Thune appears to be a better one. Feeder and it's Township effect is what makes the angel an even better card. That's why we play her and not BSA. Thune stays the strongest 5-drop for Junk Pod. Thune telegraphs she's going to win the game slow and sure.
The elemental looks like an insane CA engine :
- at 5 mana, you don't need more mana, so any topdeck land is a free 2/2;
- it puts uncounterable threats otb;
- it's bolt-proof, decay-proof;
- every ETB creature is instant speed
- anti-wrath effect.
I don't know if it fits to Pod or anywhere in the competitive pool, but it's a very sexy card on paper.
He boards out Spellskite a lot as well. What do you guys think about that? I usually don't side him out.
Spellskite sticks in all red MUs basically. It's very bad to keep it against Mindslaver obviously, useless against non-interactive decks (some aggros, some combos).
I don't understand why he gets rid of it VS Scapeshift (stops Inferno Titan triggers, buys time overall, can be podded away and not die to Pyroclasm), Delver (stops the burn plan and protects all 1>>3 drops), and Ascendancy (but he changed his mind in the comments apparently).
But he also plays Murderous Cut, a terrible card imo. On the other hand, I like his cut of a mana guy VS Delver, that's a move I made too.
If you're on the draw facing a completely unknown matchup and the opponent keeps 7 do you keep this or do you goto 4?
Birds of Paradise
Wall of Roots
Scavenging Ooze
Eternal Witness
Reclamation Sage
You keep, you have 2 draw steps to get back in the game, seems feasable. The 4 mull will be a 1-2 lander with nothing, or a 0 lander, most of the times. Here at least, the curve is great.
I never agree with going down to two pods.
I did that many times. Depends whether I'm on the draw, what's my 75 made of, what opposing archetype and what particular build. For example, against a Burn deck that plays 4 Skullcrack + 4 Flames of the Blood Hand + Smash to Smithereens, I remember having played 2 Pods on the draw. I don't think I ever cut Pod down to 1 or 0 though.
I used to play a U splash for Glen Elendra Archmage. I had opted for 2 U mana sources and 5 ravlands. Here, 6 ravlands and 10 fetchlands is incredibly painful, while the other pod decks play a 4-8 split. If I were you I would do :
-1 fetch
-1 garden
+1 forest / thicket / other basic (you know your list best)
+1 thicket
If your Stomping Ground is your 3rd forest, why do you play an extra Temple Garden ? It makes little sense. You force yourself playing 10 basic-type lands because of the 10 fetchlands. Go down to 9-5 and you'll have a safer setup. Especially for a 1-card splash !
On the topic of Thune, it's powerful but I've also found it to be slow
For those who don't play the combo, one way is to go 3 Rhinos + 2 Restos like that Jap player (even though he also played the combo !).
Tusk is so little attractive to me that I would play Doomwake Giant, Sigarda or Acidic Slime over it. ^^
Just bringing this up as I'm having fun trying an Esper Polytoken as well.
We need a solid token core and replace all creature spells by Polymorph and actual kills.
Elesh seems great in a meta full of Burn, Delver and Pod. But she can die, and as I can't decide myself for this first build, I assume playing Emrakul is no heresy. Is it just wrong to play 2 kills in a Polymorph deck ?
As the other blue spell I want is Treasure Cruise, it seems better to have the least permanents possible, so only 2 Bitterblossom. I like the fact BB gives you a token every turn so you can wait for a topdeck Polymorph, no matter what. A card like Dig through Time is too difficult to cast, and Peer through Depths looks worse than TC.
The manabase is probably a bit off, I'm not used to these archetypes builds.
The SB is just paper-based, I don't know what the deck needs post-board.
If there's a topic dedicated to that kind of archetype, let me know.
it is simlply not true that you never attack into potential block + burn. Second of all, even if I stay back with Thune and block, it can still die to burn. The fact that I have to attack twice to get the five life is concerning.
I should've added "with no benefit out of the attack". Yes you might want to pump your team with Thune and let her die in combat. It happens that you get to do such a play, but it's veryrare, and maybe a misplay. Decks with (a few) flying blockers + burn spells are reduced to 2 main archetypes : Delver and Twin. In these MUs, if they choose to trade their Delver or Pestermite / Clique, it means they lose a way to pressure you, while you pump your guys, gain life and do a 2 for 1. To sum up, she did her job and you're in good shape to win or come back. BSA looks great in such a case, but in these 2 MUs, many other cards and plays matter much more. BSA looks winmore / redundant here and has no synergy in the deck. Also, she doesn't answer anything that Thune, and the other flyers, and lifegain creatures answer already. She's no silver bullet.
However, I understand your last paragraph and BSA's qualities, it helps you out in some MUs and situations. But can you be more specific ? It never came to my mind to play BSA, for the reasons above. I'm curious to know why you brought her in.
The problem I see with Tusk is we already shifted to Rhino, and some players play 2 (even 3!) Rhinos. Tusk is a redundant lifegain source. At 2,3 and 4 cmc, you have Ooze, Skite, Finks, Feeder and Rhino to stabilize against aggro strats. If you get to 5 mana, you want a creature that seals the game, like Thune. Lark and Shriekmaw serve different purposes and don't overlap too much with cards we already have in the MD (Witness, Pontiff, Redcap).
And in the SB, I'd rather have a 4th Finks or another Rhino than a 5-drop for MUs where life matters...
Baneslayer serves a different function than Archangel. It's first strike makes it less vulnerable to things like block/bolt, and it is much better when we are behind, or only have a Pod in play.
You'll never attack into a potential block + burn, you stay back in the doubt. And I think Thune is just as good when you're behind. It's better if she attacks 2+ times, less good if you have to gain 4+ life in the turn not to lose. Thirdly, what has a Pod - with nothing to sac for - to do here ? I understand Thune provides value by pumping other guys, but she pumps herself, and that's enough to make her very close to BSA in terms of great evasive beater.
What does BSA do for you actually ? I'm wondering because nobody plays BSA anymore and she doesn't give a specific answer Thune doesn't already give.
Sigarda gives an answer to BGx and UWx decks, full of removals that will mostly kill the other 5-drops. I would better understand if you wanted to MD her, even though right now, we'd agree she belongs to the SB.
I may note lifeloss in my games, it doesn't seem like a huge effort to make. I'm afraid it takes a huge amount of games though, in order to have comparable data with you. Another important data is to note times we get mana-screwed and lose because of that. Do 2 extra-fetchlands fix it ? How many times does it happen because of Gavony Township ?
Pod players don't need 10 fetches to top8 in tournaments, and one of the reason why they don't go over 8 is tempo. Yes sometimes you can get your basics, but sometimes you need to get a shockland untapped to stay on curve, not lose tempo. Instead you could play a Thicket/Cemetery and save 3 life. Decisions can become more difficult than they should be.
On the other hand, I can completely understand a 9th fetch, but definitely not the 10th.
@Lectrys : Interesting feedback. Sabertooth also looks good aginst Tron : it fizzles lifelink from WCE and saves a creature from Karn (kind of a Spellskite's ability here). He also does a good job VS Oblivion Stone and Pyroclasm. Recurring Exarchs or Restos is great too.
On its own, it's still a clock. He's in the slot of the 2nd Restoration Angel, or the 4th Siege Rhino, or ... where did you put it ?
@PM Drax : Shadowborn Demon could be even better with 1 Darkblast MB. It's a fringe choice that comes up to face Delver and Pod decks. You can -2/-2 a creature by playing it a 1st time during your upkeep, dredge it back and replay it. It's a way to put more guys in your gy. It can be good with another fringe new guy : the Sabertooth quoted above. You get back a Finks and replay it, so you can sac it indefinitely to Demon; or you can simply bounce Demon.
GR Tron is the worst popular MU. Game 1 against many decks can be pretty tough, depending on your build, your draws, the toss,... We tend to lose game 1 VS combo decks, and ultra-agressive decks* (*especially if we're on the draw, but the current Rhino builds have so much lifegain that it may have changed that a bit).
@ingenious> He played that list online recently.
Seems like he's cutting the double combo for 3 Anafenza and I guess, a Lark.
@Aazadan> how can PWs be bad against Pod ? We can't deal with a 4+cmc PW straight. On an empty board, I don't want my opponent to play Gideon, Karn, Chandra, Garruk or whatever. What is a vacuum against Pod for you ? It doesn't make much sense to me. Also I can quote you many examples where PWs don't need a sweeper to stay on board and win against Pod. PWs are mostly win cons, if they were bad cards "in a vacuum" (what a misunderstood and unclear word btw), they wouldn't see play.
Besides, your advice to play 9-10 fetchlands comes from your very personal opinion it's a better move than playing 8. I don't believe it's a good advice, especially with no strong argument to defend it. I personnally don't agree with the fact you lose less life by playing more fetchlands and more shocklands (your setup was 5 shocklands + 10 fetchlands a few days/weeks ago !), or that getting a basic with Flats is worth it (you can do it with the 8 others). Lately you're trying a lot of marginal things (along with avatsu), which is a very good thing, don't get me wrong. But it's odd to advise somebody who just arrives on this topic without precising you're actually on the fringe side of Pod players right now, with interesting but barely tested / experienced choices.
You don't cut 1 Thicket, but 2. I understand cutting one because the 3rd Thicket you draw is never a good topdeck. Marsh Flats can be a replacement, as Woodland Cemetery can be. It depends on your list. Cutting the 2nd Thicket for a fetch or a ravland though, you need a real good reason for that. A convincing thought process. I haven't read it yet.
That kind of card can be played in a specific tournament, MB or SB. Now it's Delver and Pod time, the card is good. I do believe a 2nd Pontiff does the same job and is enough. Pontiff can be better at times, worse at other times. I wouldn't play Drakblast online or in a local tournament, even though I love the card.
This is wrong. The card is good against Delver. You force it through Leak / Pierce, it stops tokens, Delver, races back, buys time. It's a card you play at least x2 in your SB when you choose this path. When I started including the card (9 months ago I think), It didn't take me long to change my mind. Once you play it, you understand.
Now we can argue Affinity and Jund are not the decks to beat, where Souls over-perform. And other SB strats are perfectly fine right now.
The blue splash has been discussed a lot here and there. So far, the only worth-including creature in an Abzan version would be the Archmage. Blue mana requirements are so tenseful though that this splash is just not worth it.
Trinket Mage does nothing strong enough and takes at least 2 slots to work.
Sower is an anwer to Emrakul and such stupid creatures, most which die to Shriekmaw. And it's UU.
Clique is an ersatz of Sin Collector. And it's UU.
Venser is a tempo card, not what Pod wants. And it's UU.
A Sultai/Bant Pod will/may play these creatures, a U-splashed version can't, or doesn't need to.
There's other creatures like Biomancer, which is a bit like Thune : it's good alone, but you want to add a combo to make it even better. I don't see Thune without Feeder, as I don't see Biomancer without a sac outlet.
Kira is also a good one, as she saves Pod chains and creatures synergies by blanking spot removals. Though better fits in Sultai/Bant, once again.
You can go for a Courser of Kruphix otherwise. I was happy to see LSV mention it as a card to maybe add right now (in his previous article). It's not easy to find a slot for her, but if you have one, she's worth considering.
Well those who play Rhinos play 2 Restos as well. I'm not sure to understand what you mean here..?
Linvala shines in the mirror and against Ascendancy, and a hundred other specific situations. It's enough for me to keep her MB. Overall, I think you can side out Spellskite or Linvala, but not both. Especially if you don't run the Thune combo. In the doubt, I keep everything since it's been working fine so far.
Basically we don't need to brew any further with Pod. The deck is so strong, a splash or a higher curve makes the deck clunkier. We just make adjustments in the SB, and lately, in the MB to counter the rise of red decks (directly buffed by blue delve spells). Local metagames may push us to deeper changes, and it's fun to play exotic cards, I won't argue with that.
Yep, my bad. Was late, took somebody else's misread as fact.
For some reason I considered for a sec manifested creatures would see them themselves add "when it's turned face-up, trigger their ETB". Which is absolutely not the case.
You're being severe here. Lark was already a good beater, Thune appears to be a better one. Feeder and it's Township effect is what makes the angel an even better card. That's why we play her and not BSA. Thune stays the strongest 5-drop for Junk Pod. Thune telegraphs she's going to win the game slow and sure.
The elemental looks like an insane CA engine :
- at 5 mana, you don't need more mana, so any topdeck land is a free 2/2;
- it puts uncounterable threats otb;
- it's bolt-proof, decay-proof;
- every ETB creature is instant speed
- anti-wrath effect.
I don't know if it fits to Pod or anywhere in the competitive pool, but it's a very sexy card on paper.
Spellskite sticks in all red MUs basically. It's very bad to keep it against Mindslaver obviously, useless against non-interactive decks (some aggros, some combos).
I don't understand why he gets rid of it VS Scapeshift (stops Inferno Titan triggers, buys time overall, can be podded away and not die to Pyroclasm), Delver (stops the burn plan and protects all 1>>3 drops), and Ascendancy (but he changed his mind in the comments apparently).
But he also plays Murderous Cut, a terrible card imo. On the other hand, I like his cut of a mana guy VS Delver, that's a move I made too.
You keep, you have 2 draw steps to get back in the game, seems feasable. The 4 mull will be a 1-2 lander with nothing, or a 0 lander, most of the times. Here at least, the curve is great.
I did that many times. Depends whether I'm on the draw, what's my 75 made of, what opposing archetype and what particular build. For example, against a Burn deck that plays 4 Skullcrack + 4 Flames of the Blood Hand + Smash to Smithereens, I remember having played 2 Pods on the draw. I don't think I ever cut Pod down to 1 or 0 though.
-1 fetch
-1 garden
+1 forest / thicket / other basic (you know your list best)
+1 thicket
If your Stomping Ground is your 3rd forest, why do you play an extra Temple Garden ? It makes little sense. You force yourself playing 10 basic-type lands because of the 10 fetchlands. Go down to 9-5 and you'll have a safer setup. Especially for a 1-card splash !
For those who don't play the combo, one way is to go 3 Rhinos + 2 Restos like that Jap player (even though he also played the combo !).
Tusk is so little attractive to me that I would play Doomwake Giant, Sigarda or Acidic Slime over it. ^^
We need a solid token core and replace all creature spells by Polymorph and actual kills.
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Polymorph
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spectral Procession
2 Raise the Alarm
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Other Permanents (8)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Bitterblossom
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Island
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Fetid Heath
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Dismember
2 Timely Reinforcements
Elesh seems great in a meta full of Burn, Delver and Pod. But she can die, and as I can't decide myself for this first build, I assume playing Emrakul is no heresy. Is it just wrong to play 2 kills in a Polymorph deck ?
As the other blue spell I want is Treasure Cruise, it seems better to have the least permanents possible, so only 2 Bitterblossom. I like the fact BB gives you a token every turn so you can wait for a topdeck Polymorph, no matter what. A card like Dig through Time is too difficult to cast, and Peer through Depths looks worse than TC.
The manabase is probably a bit off, I'm not used to these archetypes builds.
The SB is just paper-based, I don't know what the deck needs post-board.
If there's a topic dedicated to that kind of archetype, let me know.
I should've added "with no benefit out of the attack". Yes you might want to pump your team with Thune and let her die in combat. It happens that you get to do such a play, but it's very rare, and maybe a misplay. Decks with (a few) flying blockers + burn spells are reduced to 2 main archetypes : Delver and Twin. In these MUs, if they choose to trade their Delver or Pestermite / Clique, it means they lose a way to pressure you, while you pump your guys, gain life and do a 2 for 1. To sum up, she did her job and you're in good shape to win or come back. BSA looks great in such a case, but in these 2 MUs, many other cards and plays matter much more. BSA looks winmore / redundant here and has no synergy in the deck. Also, she doesn't answer anything that Thune, and the other flyers, and lifegain creatures answer already. She's no silver bullet.
However, I understand your last paragraph and BSA's qualities, it helps you out in some MUs and situations. But can you be more specific ? It never came to my mind to play BSA, for the reasons above. I'm curious to know why you brought her in.
And in the SB, I'd rather have a 4th Finks or another Rhino than a 5-drop for MUs where life matters...
You'll never attack into a potential block + burn, you stay back in the doubt. And I think Thune is just as good when you're behind. It's better if she attacks 2+ times, less good if you have to gain 4+ life in the turn not to lose. Thirdly, what has a Pod - with nothing to sac for - to do here ? I understand Thune provides value by pumping other guys, but she pumps herself, and that's enough to make her very close to BSA in terms of great evasive beater.
What does BSA do for you actually ? I'm wondering because nobody plays BSA anymore and she doesn't give a specific answer Thune doesn't already give.
Sigarda gives an answer to BGx and UWx decks, full of removals that will mostly kill the other 5-drops. I would better understand if you wanted to MD her, even though right now, we'd agree she belongs to the SB.