@headminerve's decklist: You run a lot of huge mana drops and seems a bit slow. How are your match-ups against aggro/burn decks? It seems that turns 1-3 you are just setting up so you can drop a 6+-drop.
Yes this is the plan.
* Against Infect, Bogles and Affi, I have to say G1 is actually not that hard. By running 4x Breakers and 4x Returns, I'm inclined to be able to stabilize with no lifegain.
* Burn is special, since it ignores my interaction with the board (I mean I can sweep a board but it doesn't help my midgame) and TKS is the MVP card G1.
* The fair aggros like Knight Zoo, Coco decks, are good MUs since they're too slow.
* Elves and Merfolk are unbeatable if they goldfish with 2 Lords before I cast my first Return.
So you see, all aggros react differently and have different W/L ratios as a consequence. One thing remains though, being on the draw drastically lowers the chances of winning G1. Oblivion Sower is usually the worst creature, but it has utilities VS Affi and Infect if I get a Nexus. Unreliable G2-3 though.
Long story short, it's not an earlier drop that would help against aggro. It's either MD lifegain, or hand/board interaction. A card like Reality Smasher is completely useless there.
Playing instants against burn is much better than giving the opponent a possibitly to react to your silver bullet. You want to play feed the clan when the opponent doesn't have the mana to react.
Elixir of Immortality activates at instant speed ! And doesn't require green, which also means I can cast Stirrings or Breaker, and have a usable artifact lifegain card (while I rarely have another G open for Feed).
My 2 conclusions about Feed are :
* I almost never had the opportunity or the right sequencing to gain 10 life instead of 5.
* I can't search it with Stirrings or mulligan hard into Feed in my opener, which results in games where I never cast one.
The problem with my curve is it's hard to fight Fulminator Mage + Kolaghan's Command. This is what makes the BRx MUs so tough post-SB. Pithing Needle is a good card but vulnerable to K's Command, and that's a problem I'm not sure we can solve in a Jund version. The monoB version can couple Surgical Extraction and a million discard spells.
Ruin Processor would be the best choice. But, Heartless versions typically only have it off of World Breaker and Ulamog and that is not fast enough.
We also have 4 TKS and Sowers. Running one seems fine.
Another issue that could arise is the broken card named Destructive Revelry that the burn lists are running 3-4 of. Do cards like that make the green options of Feed the Clan and Thragtusk better?
I don't think they would bring the card in. If they do, I feel it's because they know mono black plays Vampiric Link already. VS GBx versions, they would only bring them G3 after they saw some G2. And still, Elixir or Gnome can be cracked if they want to Revelry them. So no, I'm not afraid of the card.
The other cards you mention are indeed quite slow (I tried them already, with no great success) or require very intense mana (maybe playable in Bx versions). It's tempting to play a Tusk or Wurmcoil, but they're way too slow on the draw.
Should we be more committed to adding a Miren, the Moaning Well to our mana base as an additional option?
Testing it this week. I had very few moments where it was needed, and sac'ing one body actually hurts the board stabilization we may have done and let our opponent attack then. Even though it's cool to have a sac outlet for Breaker, I'm not convinced. A bounce land would be probably better, but I'm not sure we have a good one available.
The cards are fun but too slow for modern right now. Sometimes, you cast World Breaker right in time, sometimes it's not even fast enough. So Bane being slower, and relying on 2-cards combos, is not where anyone wants to be. However, playing both is something I didn't try. I think Annihilator 2 is not enough on turn 5+, so I don't see Bane doing much.
On another note, what do you guys think of Elixir Of Immortality instead of Feed the Clan in the Ancient Stirrings versions ?
I had some games where I had to bottom Feed and wished I could dig for lifegain. It costed me those games.
The same reasoning comes out between Thragtusk and Wurmcoil Engine. The artifacts don't gain life right away but are targets for Stirrings, while the green spells gain life right away and are cheaper to cast. I'm a bit frustrated of losses because of unreachable spells, so I'll go with artifacts.
We may also compare Elixir VS Feed with Expedition Map VS Sylvan Scrying. The green spell is faster, the artifact slower but the activated ability can help in response to our opponent. Especially Skullcrack and Atarka's Command. Elixir has also a fringe utility against Tarmogoyf decks where you may want the lifegain spell (Zoo).
If you guys know colorless spells that gain life, I'm listening. Not a huge fan of Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw, the first being a bit slow and the second way too narrow.
I'd say you're pointing in the right direction. In the version I'm playing, Jund is real tough.
Baloth is hard to cast so I'd avoid this option. Especially because it only helps against Lili, but not against the rest, Tarmo included. Thragtusk is probably a better lifegain body overall. Kolaghan's Command is actually a good idea for the MU on our side, I used to play it in my BR versions of the deck. It could actually be a card for the main deck (Affi, Infect, Burn, Tron worthy). I had considered Sudden Shock because it dealt with Lili, Fulmi, Bob and baby-Scooze pretty well. K's Command does almost the same job and has upside. That's definitely a solid card for the archetype.
Well, Map has been replaced by Simian Spirit Guide. It provided similar results in my testing. Guide is slightly faster and Map fixes the Drazi Tron. Since I don't play Ghost Quarter or Cavern of Souls, I see less upsides in Map.
More discard is one option I'm open to. Thing is like I said in a previous post, I want more cards that interact with the board than cards that interact with hands. Thoughtseize is the only one card I could see playing. IoK is pretty narrow (the same ways black removal spells are, in a way). Slots are pricy though, I think these adjustments come with the expectation of a certain metagame.
- Void Winnower surprisingly doesn't make the cut. I didn't miss him. If I lose, Winnower doesn't help. At least not enough to be worth an overwhelming main deck slot.
- Since I run 4 Kozilek's Return, I play Oblivion Sower over Reality Smasher. This slot is gonna be discussed for weeks, even months. It will be interesting to show off ALL the things Sower can do in a game of Modern Magic, because I feel it's severly underrated by the new players.
- The split 4x World Breaker + 2 Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger doesn't cause me any trouble. I never had a game where the 2nd Uli didn't swing the game. And besides a very few MUs, Breaker always does something. You guys should play more of this dude if you run green (at least 3x). I'd tell you if it was lackluster.
- The manabase doesn't run Verdant Catacombs for the simple reason I play Thought-Knot Seer. If you play <> spells, you want need more colorless sources. Mountain could be another utility land, but I encounter so many Ghost Quarters and Path ot exile that losing a land straight hurts so much that I don't want to live those moments again.
- Tribute to Hunger. Ok let me tell you why the other options don't please me:
* Terminate, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse need 2 different colors, too unreliable.
* Liliana of the Veil, Victim of Night need doube black, too unreliable.
* Doom Blade doesn't hit BGx enough and doesn't hit Griselbrand. Tough MUs where I don't want a dead card.
* Dismember doesn't hit Primeval Titan, Griselbrand, Wurmcoil Engine, Eldrazis. Basically all the creatures that go over the top.
* Go for the Throat doesn't hit Affinity, Tron, and Inkmoth Nexus. 2 of the concerned decks are tier 1.
Players split these single-black spells, I just think they're rather bad spells in that shell.
Tribute hits everything (but Sigarda, Host of Herons). Yes it's bad against swarm of creatures, but I run 4x K's return for these situations. Also, Burn and most aggro decks are bad MUs G1. 4 sweepers + 2 lifegain spells really balance those. Devour Flesh was in my radar, haven't tried it but I feel like sacrificing my own guy isn't a good idea anyway.
In my opinion, this is the best list posted so far, you guys are forgetting the purpose of the Heartless building by adding so many colors ...
What do players here forget ? I think we actually went a little deeper than the monoblack version by pointing out the weaknesses of a simpler structure.
- By playing 4 TS + 4 TKS, you are very vulnerable to all the aggro MUs, which is very bad. I tried that configuration weeks ago, that was among my first drafts with the archetype, and it simply didn't work. It makes some MUs better G1 for sure, but gives you no chance against the other half of the format.
- You wonder if TKS is good because he's boltable sometimes, but don't step back about Kozilek's Channeler ? He's probably the worst creature because he's very slow and doesn't interact with your opponent. TKS is very fast (possible T2) and buys you at least a turn. Conduit is already quite slow, but it's a better Channeler thanks to its body, its tutor and its stronger ramp effect (doesn't have to tap to generate 2 mana). Now do we want 12 slow vanilla ramping bodies ?
- Monoblack is pretty on paper and looks simple to build and understand, but is way weaker than the "greedier" versions. The purpose of any deck in modern is to stand a chance against the tiers, not to just do its thing and ignore what's going on in real life.
- To me Warping Wail is close to be worth it. It has issues though : it counters Scapeshift but that MU is favorable already, and we don't have to maindeck cards for that fringe MU (it's more needed against Living End, which is also pretty fringe). The token can be very awkward to play while you have a HS around. It doesn't hit that many creatures, it's bad against Zoo, Coco decks, Kiki, Melira, Affinity plays Ravager and Overseer, Merfolk and Elves play lords, etc... Now Twin is dead, the card feels fine, but unimpressive. Probably great in some local metagames and other builds.
Discard is strong against us. We have to keep hands full of lands, full of nothing but 1 single threat, slow hands with normal lands. If you can tempo the deck out very early, you win. Jund and Abzan midrange can wreck the deck if they have T1 Inqui into T2 Tarmo into T3 Lili.
Also we have no combo hate G1, so Living End and Grishoalbrand have the advantage because they're unfairly fast. We need either Stirrings or TKS to have a chance to disrupt the opponent's hand.
Same goes for unfair aggros like Elves, Infect and Affinity. We need Stirrings or K's Return in the opener to stand a chance.
The deck is not very interactive G1 (our answers are rather polarized), a lot of MUs get better post-board since we can easily cut 4 K's returns, 2 Uli, etc... and then put in a lot of better cards.
With Wilted Abzan, keep your Path to Exile as much as you can, especially if you don't have a very fast start. Be patient. Exile World Breaker, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger... the real threats. You can cast it after Conduit of Ruin tutors for a creature, so there's a chance your opponent won't search for a basic. Same goes with your use of Ghost Quarter.
The strongest ramp cards are Eye of Ugin and Heartless Summoning, since they let us potentially cast several guys per turn.
One card I want to highlight in my list is Miren, the Moaning Well. I wanted something to abuse the recursive characteristic of World Breaker if the game gets to a point where I have to grind my opponent down.
This, my friend, is one great synergy ! I'll try it right now. Burn, Counter-Burn, and aggros can be frustrating since they ignore our vanilla bodies. Wow, can't think I missed that 2-card combo.
I already had multiple matches I won thanks to Breakers exiling lands to the point my opponent stacked dead draws. Being able to force the mana-denial gameplan is great !
I am playing 1 Sea Gate Wreckage in place of the Stomping Ground right now, because I had millions of games where I ended up topdecking and I lost multiples times because I drew air. I think I have to choose between those 2 lands, otherwise the manabase is gonna be hurt too much.
I have also noticed people are moving away from Oblivion Sower but I just can't take him out of my list
Right now, our lists look very similar, and I play 4 Conduits + 4 Sowers. Your conclusion on the full ramp plan joins mine. Disruption is needed because we lose straight up to Lili but also unfair decks.
I don't know what's your experience with all these 6 drops, but I love playing 1 Sower, then get lands that allow me to play a second one, and sometimes a third 6-drop !
There's always a choice to make between Conduit or Sower, and I would say Conduit is always better against non-black decks. White decks need exactly Path to Exile to get rid of him (or snap + path), and the other colors can't really deal with a 5/5 anyway.
So look like most deck list I see does run 4 thought knot-seer. Just wondering is he don't working well.
I read a article saying he is a sideboard at best?
Turn 2 TKS is really strong and pushes the deck to a competitive level. Like Beastdonkabrew, I tried without them, and eventually figured out the deck's better with them. yeah there are awkward situations where he'll die and give your opponent value, but it's worse not playing it in many MUs.
There's a couple main MUs where I side them out, but overall it's objectively efficient main deck.
I've mainly been sticking with the processor build but I was wondering how TKS is doing in this build. does it eat a bolt every time like I'm thinking it would?
It does. You can play around bolts thoguh if that's a priority to keep a TKS on the board, which I don't think is. If Burn uses a bolt effect on it, you are advantaged. If red midrange decks kill it, it's still QA. The card is there to disrupt combo and strong midrange cards (like Lili).
How about a playset of Gemstone Caverns to help us get to that T1 CotV or HS ? I can see a mana base of:
12 legendary lands ? Unplayable I'd say.
What would be considered favorable and unfavorable matchups for the Heartless Eldrazi deck?
Depends on your build.
4x Kozilek's Return makes aggro MUs winnable on the play G1, which is important in order to be on the play G3 and have a chance. Also helps versus BW Tokens, Martyr, and other midrange creature decks.
The mono-creature-kill decks (Suicide Zoo, Kin Fiend, Infect, Bogles, Titans, Griselbrand...) require a different answer though, like spot removal: World Breaker, Doom Blade, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, etc...
I'd say Amulet, Breach and Scapeshift are favorable from the moment you run World Breakers. It's a better card than Ghost Quarter in the sense you apply pressure at the same time, and basically don't give them back the land you just destroyed. Living End and Grishoalbrand are terrible MUs, while Processors have a good chance to use Relic of Progenitus in time. VS LE, the plan is not to play guys until they cast the card, then try to stabilize from there. Their maindeck Fulminator Mages are autowin for them. grishoalbrand can be stopped with mana denial (World Breakers, once again), and efficient spot removal: not Doom Blade, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, these cards are barely playable just because of this MU in my opinion, that I assume will rise in popularity, since it's the fastest and most consistent turn-2 kill in modern. Tarmogoyf is the best finisher for Gx midrange. These decks can perfectly disrupt us and grin us out. Liliana of the Veil is bad far their best card against us. Even MUs.
It's unclear what MUs are bad, even or good since nobody runs the same core build. There's 2 ways to build the archetype, and it's not about the colors we choose, but about the plan we make:
- either we ignore the opponent and ramps as fast as possible into plenty of eldrazis;
- or we handle early game with a ton of spells and run a few big threats good enough to win on their own.
TL;DR: There's no chance this archetype wins faster than the other unfair aggro and combo decks. No way. So there's a need for generic answers, like mass removal and hand disruption. Unsure the deck wants spot removals though (beside the big Eldrazi), mainly because the mono-black removal spells are too conditional.
Oh Yeah for sure. Channeler is a nonbo, even worse than TKS. It's a bad card and shouldn't be played in the archetype anymore.
Back to TKS, playing without it really hurts the combo and control MUs. It's really nice to Stirrings for it and break Ad N, Storm, L End, Grishoalbrand, etc... I think he's mandatory in a Stirrings list.
I also really feel Conduit of Ruin is a must in an archetype that draws a lot of air in many games. Without him, I had numerous games where I drew poorly for several turns, being unable to apply pressure and eventually lose. Felt like I was playing a pile of lands.
Before I came back to Conduit, I was thinking of Grisly Salvage and Seek the Wilds to dig further. GS incidentally puts K's Returns and Breakers in the yard,b ut some other things too. It might be a decent card in a BG build with Mortuary Mires to get back the fatties we dump.
Finally Conduit sounds about right in most builds.
Tendrils is very bad in my opinion. That's why Drown isn't played in the pre-OGW versions. Kozilek's Return is like a Flaying Tendrils with flashback that turns into a half-Destructive Force. That's why Languish is a slightly better substitute in the non-red versions.
If the deck hasn't performed well so far, it's because aggro decks crush the pre-OGW version. Lingering Souls + Blight Herder in Processors is the way they contain aggro. Here, since we can't play x/1s, mass removal spells are the one way to go.
The archetype is close to GR Tron, and that deck plays 8 mass removals main deck. There's a reason. By comparing the two archetypes, we lean towards a question we have to ask ourselves : is Heartless a worse Tron ?
I'm really not sure that the benefit is worth the difficulty in the mana base. While running Kozilek it essentially makes us a 4 color deck without easy mana fixing through fetch lands.
If you run 4 World Breaker, you simply don't run Ghost Quarter at all. Running Kozilek is not something we need. But if you want to run it, by 10 mana, you will have 2 colorless sources, no matter how many colors you play. I think you have a misconception of how the manabase plays out in a Jund version.
Right now, I'm playing no <> spells in my 60, and my manabase is:
Without counting the other slots for mana fixing / ramp.
I think that Endbringer is underrated right now, but 6 mana makes him a little awkward
Endbringer is decent to good in these MUs:
Abzan, Affi, Amulet, Breach, Coco, Eldrazi, Elves, Fish, G Devo, Goryo, Infect, Tokens, Zoo.
Either he stops big or unblockable creatures from attacking, or kills many threats in the MU. The ability of drawing cards is quite slow and not that reliable: <> <> is okay, but <> <> <> <> is quite a lot in a cycle of turn, also the guy is slow at starting doing his job.
I don't think he's good VS Jund because there's not the Lingering Souls sniping value there. He may still stop a big Tarmo, kill a Bob, and draw cards, but as the game plays out, he won't do its job with all the Terminate and Liliana of the Veil in the deck. Same VS Abzan and Tokens, but at least, if not answered, he can get rid of swarm of tokens. Can be great if unanswered of course.
Against Affi, Elves, Merfolk and Infect, he's quite slow, there are better options to deal with these decks (running 4x Kozilek's Return for example). He's decent at best, bad at worst. All these decks have Lords or pump spells / abilities.
I believe he's better in Processor lists, an archetype that has a lot of discard interaction to stop the opponent from killing him, and where Grinding is the main plan.
Chalice of the Void is good in these MUs :
Ad N, Amulet, Bogles, Burn, Elves, Infect, Lantern, L End, Martyr, Storm, Tron, Zoo.
It's good because it shuts down 0 and 1-drops. For the card to be good enough, it needs to shut down combo pieces or a decent amount of cards in the decks, that I expect to be at least 12 (a third of spells in a deck).
Now, yes some decks play a million 2-drops in their list, but in that slot, I'd prefer playing Engineered Explosives in the main deck (which I actually am !).
Looking at the MUs where it shines, Chalice looks like a good addition. I'll try 4 Chalice VS the 4 Maps, and keep Stirrings anyway. If we look at Legacy decks that play Chalice, they often play one-drops if thos ones are too strong for the deck to ignore (I think of Merfolks for example that can't cut Aether Vial).
Bane of Bala Ged at first I will say It's a pet card of mine.
I haven't tried it in a SSG version, but I found it too slow in the mono-B version. We are pretty slow at putting eldrazis online sometimes, so we need an effect when cast, otherwise it's too late.
Artisan of Kozilek
This is actually a very good card for the deck. BGx decks are not easy MUs because they can wreck us with discard + Lili. Pretty hard to come back, and Artisan, at least, swings the game if found on time.
World Breaker worth the splash for green because It's a mini Ulamog that recurs itself and survives your own KR.
We could also compare it to Karn Liberated. It doesn't hit Lili and creatures though, so the comaprison stops there. But in some MUs it's a better Karn.
Yes this is the plan.
* Against Infect, Bogles and Affi, I have to say G1 is actually not that hard. By running 4x Breakers and 4x Returns, I'm inclined to be able to stabilize with no lifegain.
* Burn is special, since it ignores my interaction with the board (I mean I can sweep a board but it doesn't help my midgame) and TKS is the MVP card G1.
* The fair aggros like Knight Zoo, Coco decks, are good MUs since they're too slow.
* Elves and Merfolk are unbeatable if they goldfish with 2 Lords before I cast my first Return.
So you see, all aggros react differently and have different W/L ratios as a consequence. One thing remains though, being on the draw drastically lowers the chances of winning G1. Oblivion Sower is usually the worst creature, but it has utilities VS Affi and Infect if I get a Nexus. Unreliable G2-3 though.
Long story short, it's not an earlier drop that would help against aggro. It's either MD lifegain, or hand/board interaction. A card like Reality Smasher is completely useless there.
Elixir of Immortality activates at instant speed ! And doesn't require green, which also means I can cast Stirrings or Breaker, and have a usable artifact lifegain card (while I rarely have another G open for Feed).
My 2 conclusions about Feed are :
* I almost never had the opportunity or the right sequencing to gain 10 life instead of 5.
* I can't search it with Stirrings or mulligan hard into Feed in my opener, which results in games where I never cast one.
The problem with my curve is it's hard to fight Fulminator Mage + Kolaghan's Command. This is what makes the BRx MUs so tough post-SB. Pithing Needle is a good card but vulnerable to K's Command, and that's a problem I'm not sure we can solve in a Jund version. The monoB version can couple Surgical Extraction and a million discard spells.
We also have 4 TKS and Sowers. Running one seems fine.
I don't think they would bring the card in. If they do, I feel it's because they know mono black plays Vampiric Link already. VS GBx versions, they would only bring them G3 after they saw some G2. And still, Elixir or Gnome can be cracked if they want to Revelry them. So no, I'm not afraid of the card.
The other cards you mention are indeed quite slow (I tried them already, with no great success) or require very intense mana (maybe playable in Bx versions). It's tempting to play a Tusk or Wurmcoil, but they're way too slow on the draw.
Testing it this week. I had very few moments where it was needed, and sac'ing one body actually hurts the board stabilization we may have done and let our opponent attack then. Even though it's cool to have a sac outlet for Breaker, I'm not convinced. A bounce land would be probably better, but I'm not sure we have a good one available.
On another note, what do you guys think of Elixir Of Immortality instead of Feed the Clan in the Ancient Stirrings versions ?
I had some games where I had to bottom Feed and wished I could dig for lifegain. It costed me those games.
The same reasoning comes out between Thragtusk and Wurmcoil Engine. The artifacts don't gain life right away but are targets for Stirrings, while the green spells gain life right away and are cheaper to cast. I'm a bit frustrated of losses because of unreachable spells, so I'll go with artifacts.
We may also compare Elixir VS Feed with Expedition Map VS Sylvan Scrying. The green spell is faster, the artifact slower but the activated ability can help in response to our opponent. Especially Skullcrack and Atarka's Command. Elixir has also a fringe utility against Tarmogoyf decks where you may want the lifegain spell (Zoo).
If you guys know colorless spells that gain life, I'm listening. Not a huge fan of Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw, the first being a bit slow and the second way too narrow.
Baloth is hard to cast so I'd avoid this option. Especially because it only helps against Lili, but not against the rest, Tarmo included. Thragtusk is probably a better lifegain body overall.
Kolaghan's Command is actually a good idea for the MU on our side, I used to play it in my BR versions of the deck. It could actually be a card for the main deck (Affi, Infect, Burn, Tron worthy). I had considered Sudden Shock because it dealt with Lili, Fulmi, Bob and baby-Scooze pretty well. K's Command does almost the same job and has upside. That's definitely a solid card for the archetype.
More discard is one option I'm open to. Thing is like I said in a previous post, I want more cards that interact with the board than cards that interact with hands. Thoughtseize is the only one card I could see playing. IoK is pretty narrow (the same ways black removal spells are, in a way). Slots are pricy though, I think these adjustments come with the expectation of a certain metagame.
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 World Breaker
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Conduit of Ruin
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Tribute to Hunger
4 Kozilek's Return
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spellskite
2 Pithing Needle
2 All Is Dust
3 Feed the Clan
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crumble to Dust
- Void Winnower surprisingly doesn't make the cut. I didn't miss him. If I lose, Winnower doesn't help. At least not enough to be worth an overwhelming main deck slot.
- Since I run 4 Kozilek's Return, I play Oblivion Sower over Reality Smasher. This slot is gonna be discussed for weeks, even months. It will be interesting to show off ALL the things Sower can do in a game of Modern Magic, because I feel it's severly underrated by the new players.
- The split 4x World Breaker + 2 Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger doesn't cause me any trouble. I never had a game where the 2nd Uli didn't swing the game. And besides a very few MUs, Breaker always does something. You guys should play more of this dude if you run green (at least 3x). I'd tell you if it was lackluster.
- The manabase doesn't run Verdant Catacombs for the simple reason I play Thought-Knot Seer. If you play <> spells, you
wantneed more colorless sources. Mountain could be another utility land, but I encounter so many Ghost Quarters and Path ot exile that losing a land straight hurts so much that I don't want to live those moments again.- Tribute to Hunger. Ok let me tell you why the other options don't please me:
* Terminate, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse need 2 different colors, too unreliable.
* Liliana of the Veil, Victim of Night need doube black, too unreliable.
* Doom Blade doesn't hit BGx enough and doesn't hit Griselbrand. Tough MUs where I don't want a dead card.
* Dismember doesn't hit Primeval Titan, Griselbrand, Wurmcoil Engine, Eldrazis. Basically all the creatures that go over the top.
* Go for the Throat doesn't hit Affinity, Tron, and Inkmoth Nexus. 2 of the concerned decks are tier 1.
Players split these single-black spells, I just think they're rather bad spells in that shell.
Tribute hits everything (but Sigarda, Host of Herons). Yes it's bad against swarm of creatures, but I run 4x K's return for these situations. Also, Burn and most aggro decks are bad MUs G1. 4 sweepers + 2 lifegain spells really balance those. Devour Flesh was in my radar, haven't tried it but I feel like sacrificing my own guy isn't a good idea anyway.
What do players here forget ? I think we actually went a little deeper than the monoblack version by pointing out the weaknesses of a simpler structure.
- By playing 4 TS + 4 TKS, you are very vulnerable to all the aggro MUs, which is very bad. I tried that configuration weeks ago, that was among my first drafts with the archetype, and it simply didn't work. It makes some MUs better G1 for sure, but gives you no chance against the other half of the format.
- You wonder if TKS is good because he's boltable sometimes, but don't step back about Kozilek's Channeler ? He's probably the worst creature because he's very slow and doesn't interact with your opponent. TKS is very fast (possible T2) and buys you at least a turn. Conduit is already quite slow, but it's a better Channeler thanks to its body, its tutor and its stronger ramp effect (doesn't have to tap to generate 2 mana). Now do we want 12 slow vanilla ramping bodies ?
- Monoblack is pretty on paper and looks simple to build and understand, but is way weaker than the "greedier" versions. The purpose of any deck in modern is to stand a chance against the tiers, not to just do its thing and ignore what's going on in real life.
- To me Warping Wail is close to be worth it. It has issues though : it counters Scapeshift but that MU is favorable already, and we don't have to maindeck cards for that fringe MU (it's more needed against Living End, which is also pretty fringe). The token can be very awkward to play while you have a HS around. It doesn't hit that many creatures, it's bad against Zoo, Coco decks, Kiki, Melira, Affinity plays Ravager and Overseer, Merfolk and Elves play lords, etc... Now Twin is dead, the card feels fine, but unimpressive. Probably great in some local metagames and other builds.
Also we have no combo hate G1, so Living End and Grishoalbrand have the advantage because they're unfairly fast. We need either Stirrings or TKS to have a chance to disrupt the opponent's hand.
Same goes for unfair aggros like Elves, Infect and Affinity. We need Stirrings or K's Return in the opener to stand a chance.
The deck is not very interactive G1 (our answers are rather polarized), a lot of MUs get better post-board since we can easily cut 4 K's returns, 2 Uli, etc... and then put in a lot of better cards.
With Wilted Abzan, keep your Path to Exile as much as you can, especially if you don't have a very fast start. Be patient. Exile World Breaker, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger... the real threats. You can cast it after Conduit of Ruin tutors for a creature, so there's a chance your opponent won't search for a basic. Same goes with your use of Ghost Quarter.
The strongest ramp cards are Eye of Ugin and Heartless Summoning, since they let us potentially cast several guys per turn.
This, my friend, is one great synergy ! I'll try it right now. Burn, Counter-Burn, and aggros can be frustrating since they ignore our vanilla bodies. Wow, can't think I missed that 2-card combo.
I already had multiple matches I won thanks to Breakers exiling lands to the point my opponent stacked dead draws. Being able to force the mana-denial gameplan is great !
I am playing 1 Sea Gate Wreckage in place of the Stomping Ground right now, because I had millions of games where I ended up topdecking and I lost multiples times because I drew air. I think I have to choose between those 2 lands, otherwise the manabase is gonna be hurt too much.
Right now, our lists look very similar, and I play 4 Conduits + 4 Sowers. Your conclusion on the full ramp plan joins mine. Disruption is needed because we lose straight up to Lili but also unfair decks.
I don't know what's your experience with all these 6 drops, but I love playing 1 Sower, then get lands that allow me to play a second one, and sometimes a third 6-drop !
There's always a choice to make between Conduit or Sower, and I would say Conduit is always better against non-black decks. White decks need exactly Path to Exile to get rid of him (or snap + path), and the other colors can't really deal with a 5/5 anyway.
Turn 2 TKS is really strong and pushes the deck to a competitive level. Like Beastdonkabrew, I tried without them, and eventually figured out the deck's better with them. yeah there are awkward situations where he'll die and give your opponent value, but it's worse not playing it in many MUs.
There's a couple main MUs where I side them out, but overall it's objectively efficient main deck.
It does. You can play around bolts thoguh if that's a priority to keep a TKS on the board, which I don't think is. If Burn uses a bolt effect on it, you are advantaged. If red midrange decks kill it, it's still QA. The card is there to disrupt combo and strong midrange cards (like Lili).
12 legendary lands ? Unplayable I'd say.
Depends on your build.
4x Kozilek's Return makes aggro MUs winnable on the play G1, which is important in order to be on the play G3 and have a chance. Also helps versus BW Tokens, Martyr, and other midrange creature decks.
The mono-creature-kill decks (Suicide Zoo, Kin Fiend, Infect, Bogles, Titans, Griselbrand...) require a different answer though, like spot removal: World Breaker, Doom Blade, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, etc...
I'd say Amulet, Breach and Scapeshift are favorable from the moment you run World Breakers. It's a better card than Ghost Quarter in the sense you apply pressure at the same time, and basically don't give them back the land you just destroyed.
Living End and Grishoalbrand are terrible MUs, while Processors have a good chance to use Relic of Progenitus in time. VS LE, the plan is not to play guys until they cast the card, then try to stabilize from there. Their maindeck Fulminator Mages are autowin for them. grishoalbrand can be stopped with mana denial (World Breakers, once again), and efficient spot removal: not Doom Blade, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, these cards are barely playable just because of this MU in my opinion, that I assume will rise in popularity, since it's the fastest and most consistent turn-2 kill in modern.
Tarmogoyf is the best finisher for Gx midrange. These decks can perfectly disrupt us and grin us out. Liliana of the Veil is bad far their best card against us. Even MUs.
It's unclear what MUs are bad, even or good since nobody runs the same core build. There's 2 ways to build the archetype, and it's not about the colors we choose, but about the plan we make:
- either we ignore the opponent and ramps as fast as possible into plenty of eldrazis;
- or we handle early game with a ton of spells and run a few big threats good enough to win on their own.
TL;DR: There's no chance this archetype wins faster than the other unfair aggro and combo decks. No way. So there's a need for generic answers, like mass removal and hand disruption. Unsure the deck wants spot removals though (beside the big Eldrazi), mainly because the mono-black removal spells are too conditional.
Back to TKS, playing without it really hurts the combo and control MUs. It's really nice to Stirrings for it and break Ad N, Storm, L End, Grishoalbrand, etc... I think he's mandatory in a Stirrings list.
I also really feel Conduit of Ruin is a must in an archetype that draws a lot of air in many games. Without him, I had numerous games where I drew poorly for several turns, being unable to apply pressure and eventually lose. Felt like I was playing a pile of lands.
Before I came back to Conduit, I was thinking of Grisly Salvage and Seek the Wilds to dig further. GS incidentally puts K's Returns and Breakers in the yard,b ut some other things too. It might be a decent card in a BG build with Mortuary Mires to get back the fatties we dump.
Finally Conduit sounds about right in most builds.
If the deck hasn't performed well so far, it's because aggro decks crush the pre-OGW version. Lingering Souls + Blight Herder in Processors is the way they contain aggro. Here, since we can't play x/1s, mass removal spells are the one way to go.
The archetype is close to GR Tron, and that deck plays 8 mass removals main deck. There's a reason. By comparing the two archetypes, we lean towards a question we have to ask ourselves : is Heartless a worse Tron ?
If you run 4 World Breaker, you simply don't run Ghost Quarter at all. Running Kozilek is not something we need. But if you want to run it, by 10 mana, you will have 2 colorless sources, no matter how many colors you play. I think you have a misconception of how the manabase plays out in a Jund version.
Right now, I'm playing no <> spells in my 60, and my manabase is:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Without counting the other slots for mana fixing / ramp.
Endbringer is decent to good in these MUs:
Abzan, Affi, Amulet, Breach, Coco, Eldrazi, Elves, Fish, G Devo, Goryo, Infect, Tokens, Zoo.
Either he stops big or unblockable creatures from attacking, or kills many threats in the MU. The ability of drawing cards is quite slow and not that reliable: <> <> is okay, but <> <> <> <> is quite a lot in a cycle of turn, also the guy is slow at starting doing his job.
I don't think he's good VS Jund because there's not the Lingering Souls sniping value there. He may still stop a big Tarmo, kill a Bob, and draw cards, but as the game plays out, he won't do its job with all the Terminate and Liliana of the Veil in the deck. Same VS Abzan and Tokens, but at least, if not answered, he can get rid of swarm of tokens. Can be great if unanswered of course.
Against Affi, Elves, Merfolk and Infect, he's quite slow, there are better options to deal with these decks (running 4x Kozilek's Return for example). He's decent at best, bad at worst. All these decks have Lords or pump spells / abilities.
I believe he's better in Processor lists, an archetype that has a lot of discard interaction to stop the opponent from killing him, and where Grinding is the main plan.
Ad N, Amulet, Bogles, Burn, Elves, Infect, Lantern, L End, Martyr, Storm, Tron, Zoo.
It's good because it shuts down 0 and 1-drops. For the card to be good enough, it needs to shut down combo pieces or a decent amount of cards in the decks, that I expect to be at least 12 (a third of spells in a deck).
Now, yes some decks play a million 2-drops in their list, but in that slot, I'd prefer playing Engineered Explosives in the main deck (which I actually am !).
Looking at the MUs where it shines, Chalice looks like a good addition. I'll try 4 Chalice VS the 4 Maps, and keep Stirrings anyway. If we look at Legacy decks that play Chalice, they often play one-drops if thos ones are too strong for the deck to ignore (I think of Merfolks for example that can't cut Aether Vial).
The downside I see playing Chalice is it makes our 1-drop sideboard hate possibly impossible to cast in the right MU : Grafdigger's cage, Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, Duress...
We have Grove of the Burnwillows.
I haven't tried it in a SSG version, but I found it too slow in the mono-B version. We are pretty slow at putting eldrazis online sometimes, so we need an effect when cast, otherwise it's too late.
This is actually a very good card for the deck. BGx decks are not easy MUs because they can wreck us with discard + Lili. Pretty hard to come back, and Artisan, at least, swings the game if found on time.
We could also compare it to Karn Liberated. It doesn't hit Lili and creatures though, so the comaprison stops there. But in some MUs it's a better Karn.