I'm all for out of the box ideas, but why wouldn't we just play Harrow instead? Same cost for the effect, it's the right color and we don't have to discard. Is the attraction just that he offers repeatable land search?
Umm sure. I am just happy ya'll aren't mad that I am getting way to much credit in that article.
No one's mad. We're super excited the deck got so much exposure.
This is a great write up, too. Thanks for putting it together. I've never run Autumn's Veil, but I do run SSG. Any thoughts on what you might sub in if you pulled him from the deck completely? More land search, more ramp, maybe main deck fogs? Sylvan Ranger maybe?
I'll be sure to check out some of your streams. Thanks again.
Congrats again on your finish! I'm sure everyone here would love to read about your experiences with the deck in online play. Also, have you made any changes to the decklist? If so, what and how have the worked out?
SSG can make for some great turn ones, especially in conjunction with Chancellor to cast a T1 Rampant Growth, or Steve. I've often had opening hands that included SSG, Chancellor and a land, and SSG let me cast a turn 1 Rampant Growth as well as a Turn 1 Lay of the Land, for example.
I've also held it up more than once to cast a Belcher on the turn it came down, one turn faster than I normally would have been able to. Personally, I've never been disappointed to have one in my hand, even if it doesn't make the best late game topdeck (unless it lets you drop and fire belcher, which is nice).
Interesting conclusions about Stomping Ground. For giggles I ran a 20 goldfish test with Ground in the deck vs. 20 matches with 7 forests, and I ended up with the same average 5.1 turn win. I wanted to see if going to 7 basics meant I could reliably get all the land out of my deck before firing the cannon, but the times I was able to it was never sooner than round 5 anyway.
I'm not sure that it really makes a difference, but the times I fire 'Belcher with one land left in my deck, which is often, I would rather that land be Stomping Ground even if statistically it doesn't seem to be making a huge difference.
I've gone to a list with two Noble Hierarch instead of Arbor Elf, and I too have had no problems hitting blue mana when needed without the need for Breeding Pool.
My land search package is the 12 one-mana searches plus four Rampant Growth, three Recross the Paths and two Kodama's Reach, and so far it's working out really well for me. This is my favorite version of the list so far, though I will continue to experiment with different land search spells.
I agree that we might have to concede that this is a Turn 5 deck.
Woohoo! Front page coverage on DailyMTG! It's too bad that they don't give credit to these boards where this deck was unquestionably invented, but press is still press!
So far this deck has been very consistent for me. I don't miss the Breeding Pool at all, and have never been without blue mana when needed to cast Fabricate. I'm almost always able to get the six basics out of my deck in time to cast a turn 4 or 5 'Belcher, leaving only Stomping Grounds in the deck to deal double damage.
I subbed out 1 Recross the Paths for 1 Kodama's Reach mostly as an experiment, because I don't like drawing multiple Recross in my opening hand. The two times I've cast Kodama's, it's felt very powerful. I cast it once turn 1 with an assist from a Simian Spirit Guide and Chancellor of the Tangle, and it was bonkers.
Through 20 rounds of testing, 10 on the play 10 on the draw, the average turn win breakdown is:
This seems to be a very solid Turn 5 deck. Two of the three times I had not fired belcher by turn 7, I had two Chancellor's in play on turns 4 and 5, which feels very powerful, and likely could have ended in beatdown wins even if I never got the combo off.
It's possible we won't be able to get this deck any faster without the printing of new cards, the unbanning of Chrome Mox, or the reprinting of classics such as Nature's Lore.
obviously a lot less land searching, but horizons seems a lot more powerful than needing a million redundant spells and lets you run answers.
There's a mono-white build listed in the primer, I believe, and someone else posted a white deck that abuses Endless Horizons earlier in the thread. I don't know if they ever reported back how it was working for them, though.
The best thing you could do is take the deck for a spin and let us know how it does.
Too many Cultivates? Can I afford to give up Breeding Pool for Stomping Grounds?
I would love to see what kind of test results you get with this most recent deck you posted. I'm especially interested what you discover replacing Breeding Pool for Stomping Ground does for the deck's consistency and lethality.
Maybe 4 is too many Fabricate, though? Anyway, I thought your post was super informative. Keep up the good work.
I've been running some real preliminary tests replacing one Snow-Covered Forest with a Stomping Ground, but otherwise identical to my previously posted list.
I was only able to run 10 tests yesterday, and so far I would say the results are inconclusive. In three matches, hitting Stomping Ground on a 'Belcher activation triggered lethal damage when another land would not have. In three matches hitting Stomp was just overkill. (The difference between 32 and 64 damage, etc.) And in at least 4 games, I ended up with stranded land search cards in hand a turn or two before firing 'Belcher, because of going down to five basic lands.
It will require more testing, but at this point, I don't think it's proving to be any kind of silver bullet.
Also, it should be noted that at least in this round of tests my average turn win is 5.3. Much slower than where we want to be.
In only one game was a turn 5 Fabricate draw required to find 'Belcher and win the game on turn 6. Maybe we should trust that we can get blue mana and go to a 6 Forest, 1 Stomping Ground list?
I'll run some tests on that, too, when I get the chance.
Finally, I don't remember if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but what are people's thoughts on Prismatic Omen? I see it in a lot of Scapeshift lists, and I wonder if it can do the same thing for us.
I'm thinking of testing -1 Recross the Paths, -1 Wall of Roots and -1 Rampant Growth, for a +3 Prismatic Omen. Those times when you do have it in hand and know there's 1 or 2 lands left in your deck, you could cast it the turn before 'Belcher to at least increase odds of a fatal 'Belcher shot.
I'm sorry, Ktkenshinx, I should have clarified that I already made the changes to your deck list you announced in the thread after the twin test. Plus the Pithing Needle swap. I'm not 100 percent sure how to format decklists in the forums yet, but I'll try:
My issue with Stomping Ground is that it seems to be an all or nothing strategy. Either cut Breeding Pool for it and hope you'll have blue for Fabricate if you need it, or not. This also ignores the fact that you have 4 cards (Safewright Quest) that can fetch Breeding Pool if you need to cast fabricate and don't have Utopia Sprawl or Birds in hand/play.
I don't think going to 5 forests, and 1 each of Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground is worth it for the reasons you mentioned. (The largest being dead fetch cards once you have five forests out). But maybe it's a matter of more playtesting. I've certainly had "games" where a turn 5 activation with one forest left in the deck resulted in a Charbelcher activation for 11 or 13, or so. If that last land is Stomping Ground, that's GG.
Thank you again, Izzet! This has been extremely helpful. Maybe Illusionist can add your post about ideal opening hands to the primer?
Has anyone tried stomping grounds from the side in g2 or something? So that your G2 and G3 can be more of a "coin flip" while you just play a less explosive version g1?
It's a strategy used for legacy dredge where they use dredge g1 and then reanimator g2 to beat hate.
Where would you side the Stomping Grounds in, though? In the Breeding Pool slot? I only ask because it seems that after game 1, our opponent will know our win con and be gunning to take out Charbelcher. That would make Fabricate even more important in games 2 and 3, right? Or are we comfortable in the 8 chances we already have to create blue mana (Birds and Utopia Sprawl)?
Yeah, the only time I've scored a turn 4 kill, I had an opening hand including both Breeding Pool and Snow-Covered Forest, three land-search spells and a belcher.
Do you always play a land search spell before a mana dork? For instance, with an opening hand of no land, but a chancellor and SSG and an Arbor Elf and BOP and a Rampant Growth or Lay, do you always use the opening-hand mana to find lands, or do you play mana dorks and then use them to find lands next turn and hope for a land draw?
My default has to always look for land over any other consideration, at least when goldfishing, because getting land out of our deck is how we win. I'm just wondering if that's typically the best move.
I'm a long time mtgsalvation forum lurker, but this is my first post. I registered on the site finally just to discuss this deck!
After reading through the entire thread a couple of times, I finally picked up all the pieces for the deck in paper, and I'm having a blast just goldfishing with it as I dream of turn 4 kills.
I'm using Ktkenshinx's decklist from the twin tests, except I moved Pithing Needle to the sideboard in the Autumn Veil slot, and added a single Into the North back in the main for a total of 5 Rampant Growth effects not counting the Steves.
The problem I'm having is that I cannot seem to get the deck to "go off" reliably before turn 6. In all my testing, I've only managed to trigger a turn 4 kill (Charbelcher activation for 32 points of damage with 1 snow-covered forest left in the deck) once.
I played the deck against my friends RW Heroic deck last night for a few games, just to get a feel for it in a live game environment. He beat me every time because his deck was just to fast. Granted, neither of us were playing with sideboards, just our main decks because it was just for fun. I'm sure Fog out of the sideboard would have done a lot to delay his deck long enough for me to secure a couple kills. The deck just seemed to be 1 or 2 turns too slow in the matchup.
Speaking of that, can anyone here go though what they consider to be optimal opening hands, and when we should be mulliganing with this deck? I've read about others using the deck getting reliable turn 4 and turn 5 kills, and I think my inexperience with the deck must be holding me back. So can one of you more experienced pilots walk us all through your decision tree when keeping opening hands and maybe playing out the first couple of turns?
I would appreciate any guidance. Keep up the good work. I've noticed a slow down in the number of posts here over the last few days, and I hope the enthusiasm for this deck is not waning. I think it's a lot of fun, and want to see it succeed.
I'm all for out of the box ideas, but why wouldn't we just play Harrow instead? Same cost for the effect, it's the right color and we don't have to discard. Is the attraction just that he offers repeatable land search?
No one's mad. We're super excited the deck got so much exposure.
This is a great write up, too. Thanks for putting it together. I've never run Autumn's Veil, but I do run SSG. Any thoughts on what you might sub in if you pulled him from the deck completely? More land search, more ramp, maybe main deck fogs? Sylvan Ranger maybe?
I'll be sure to check out some of your streams. Thanks again.
Congrats again on your finish! I'm sure everyone here would love to read about your experiences with the deck in online play. Also, have you made any changes to the decklist? If so, what and how have the worked out?
(I hope you don't mind me pestering you.)
Awesome. I can't wait to see what you've brewed up!
I've also held it up more than once to cast a Belcher on the turn it came down, one turn faster than I normally would have been able to. Personally, I've never been disappointed to have one in my hand, even if it doesn't make the best late game topdeck (unless it lets you drop and fire belcher, which is nice).
Interesting conclusions about Stomping Ground. For giggles I ran a 20 goldfish test with Ground in the deck vs. 20 matches with 7 forests, and I ended up with the same average 5.1 turn win. I wanted to see if going to 7 basics meant I could reliably get all the land out of my deck before firing the cannon, but the times I was able to it was never sooner than round 5 anyway.
I'm not sure that it really makes a difference, but the times I fire 'Belcher with one land left in my deck, which is often, I would rather that land be Stomping Ground even if statistically it doesn't seem to be making a huge difference.
I've gone to a list with two Noble Hierarch instead of Arbor Elf, and I too have had no problems hitting blue mana when needed without the need for Breeding Pool.
My land search package is the 12 one-mana searches plus four Rampant Growth, three Recross the Paths and two Kodama's Reach, and so far it's working out really well for me. This is my favorite version of the list so far, though I will continue to experiment with different land search spells.
I agree that we might have to concede that this is a Turn 5 deck.
Woohoo!
It's a shame LSV didn't link here, as I'm sure he's aware of this thread. There's probably some WotC rule about linking to third-party sites, though.
Still, it's awesome to get such a high profile shout out. I'll throw a link on Reddit and try to drive people here.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells: 32
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Into the North
1 Rampant Growth
3 Fabricate
1 Kodama's Reach
3 Recross the Paths
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Stomping Ground
3 Fog
3 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
3 defense Grid
2 Spellskite
3 Torpor Orb
So far this deck has been very consistent for me. I don't miss the Breeding Pool at all, and have never been without blue mana when needed to cast Fabricate. I'm almost always able to get the six basics out of my deck in time to cast a turn 4 or 5 'Belcher, leaving only Stomping Grounds in the deck to deal double damage.
I subbed out 1 Recross the Paths for 1 Kodama's Reach mostly as an experiment, because I don't like drawing multiple Recross in my opening hand. The two times I've cast Kodama's, it's felt very powerful. I cast it once turn 1 with an assist from a Simian Spirit Guide and Chancellor of the Tangle, and it was bonkers.
Through 20 rounds of testing, 10 on the play 10 on the draw, the average turn win breakdown is:
Turn 3: 0
Turn 4: 7 (35%)
Turn 5: 7 (35%)
Turn 6: 3 (15%)
Turn 7+: 3 (15%)
This seems to be a very solid Turn 5 deck. Two of the three times I had not fired belcher by turn 7, I had two Chancellor's in play on turns 4 and 5, which feels very powerful, and likely could have ended in beatdown wins even if I never got the combo off.
It's possible we won't be able to get this deck any faster without the printing of new cards, the unbanning of Chrome Mox, or the reprinting of classics such as Nature's Lore.
I hope to be proven wrong about that, though.
You're absolutely right. I overlooked the "lands you control" clause. Thank you for the correction.
There's a mono-white build listed in the primer, I believe, and someone else posted a white deck that abuses Endless Horizons earlier in the thread. I don't know if they ever reported back how it was working for them, though.
The best thing you could do is take the deck for a spin and let us know how it does.
I would love to see what kind of test results you get with this most recent deck you posted. I'm especially interested what you discover replacing Breeding Pool for Stomping Ground does for the deck's consistency and lethality.
Maybe 4 is too many Fabricate, though? Anyway, I thought your post was super informative. Keep up the good work.
I was only able to run 10 tests yesterday, and so far I would say the results are inconclusive. In three matches, hitting Stomping Ground on a 'Belcher activation triggered lethal damage when another land would not have. In three matches hitting Stomp was just overkill. (The difference between 32 and 64 damage, etc.) And in at least 4 games, I ended up with stranded land search cards in hand a turn or two before firing 'Belcher, because of going down to five basic lands.
It will require more testing, but at this point, I don't think it's proving to be any kind of silver bullet.
Also, it should be noted that at least in this round of tests my average turn win is 5.3. Much slower than where we want to be.
In only one game was a turn 5 Fabricate draw required to find 'Belcher and win the game on turn 6. Maybe we should trust that we can get blue mana and go to a 6 Forest, 1 Stomping Ground list?
I'll run some tests on that, too, when I get the chance.
Finally, I don't remember if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but what are people's thoughts on Prismatic Omen? I see it in a lot of Scapeshift lists, and I wonder if it can do the same thing for us.
I'm thinking of testing -1 Recross the Paths, -1 Wall of Roots and -1 Rampant Growth, for a +3 Prismatic Omen. Those times when you do have it in hand and know there's 1 or 2 lands left in your deck, you could cast it the turn before 'Belcher to at least increase odds of a fatal 'Belcher shot.
Thoughts?
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Breeding Pool
Creatures: 21
2 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wall of Roots
4 Caravan Vigil
3 Fabricate
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Into the North
4 Lay of the Land
1 Rampant Growth
4 Recross the Paths
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Defense Grid
3 Fog
3 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spellskite
3 Torpor Orb
My issue with Stomping Ground is that it seems to be an all or nothing strategy. Either cut Breeding Pool for it and hope you'll have blue for Fabricate if you need it, or not. This also ignores the fact that you have 4 cards (Safewright Quest) that can fetch Breeding Pool if you need to cast fabricate and don't have Utopia Sprawl or Birds in hand/play.
I don't think going to 5 forests, and 1 each of Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground is worth it for the reasons you mentioned. (The largest being dead fetch cards once you have five forests out). But maybe it's a matter of more playtesting. I've certainly had "games" where a turn 5 activation with one forest left in the deck resulted in a Charbelcher activation for 11 or 13, or so. If that last land is Stomping Ground, that's GG.
Where would you side the Stomping Grounds in, though? In the Breeding Pool slot? I only ask because it seems that after game 1, our opponent will know our win con and be gunning to take out Charbelcher. That would make Fabricate even more important in games 2 and 3, right? Or are we comfortable in the 8 chances we already have to create blue mana (Birds and Utopia Sprawl)?
Yeah, the only time I've scored a turn 4 kill, I had an opening hand including both Breeding Pool and Snow-Covered Forest, three land-search spells and a belcher.
Do you always play a land search spell before a mana dork? For instance, with an opening hand of no land, but a chancellor and SSG and an Arbor Elf and BOP and a Rampant Growth or Lay, do you always use the opening-hand mana to find lands, or do you play mana dorks and then use them to find lands next turn and hope for a land draw?
My default has to always look for land over any other consideration, at least when goldfishing, because getting land out of our deck is how we win. I'm just wondering if that's typically the best move.
I'm a long time mtgsalvation forum lurker, but this is my first post. I registered on the site finally just to discuss this deck!
After reading through the entire thread a couple of times, I finally picked up all the pieces for the deck in paper, and I'm having a blast just goldfishing with it as I dream of turn 4 kills.
I'm using Ktkenshinx's decklist from the twin tests, except I moved Pithing Needle to the sideboard in the Autumn Veil slot, and added a single Into the North back in the main for a total of 5 Rampant Growth effects not counting the Steves.
The problem I'm having is that I cannot seem to get the deck to "go off" reliably before turn 6. In all my testing, I've only managed to trigger a turn 4 kill (Charbelcher activation for 32 points of damage with 1 snow-covered forest left in the deck) once.
I played the deck against my friends RW Heroic deck last night for a few games, just to get a feel for it in a live game environment. He beat me every time because his deck was just to fast. Granted, neither of us were playing with sideboards, just our main decks because it was just for fun. I'm sure Fog out of the sideboard would have done a lot to delay his deck long enough for me to secure a couple kills. The deck just seemed to be 1 or 2 turns too slow in the matchup.
Speaking of that, can anyone here go though what they consider to be optimal opening hands, and when we should be mulliganing with this deck? I've read about others using the deck getting reliable turn 4 and turn 5 kills, and I think my inexperience with the deck must be holding me back. So can one of you more experienced pilots walk us all through your decision tree when keeping opening hands and maybe playing out the first couple of turns?
I would appreciate any guidance. Keep up the good work. I've noticed a slow down in the number of posts here over the last few days, and I hope the enthusiasm for this deck is not waning. I think it's a lot of fun, and want to see it succeed.
Thanks for all your help.