I dont see the need to ban Force of Will, I dunno why but it would just feel blue is lacking without this card (I dont play blue decks). As an aggro player I seriously hope that he Force (2 for 1) my creature, this means two things: 1) No more counters for the next spell 2) No more answer/bounce for my permanents
As for the Banlist, yes, it was all sudden, we understand that. With the release of Commander 2013, Zur and Derevi performed with very minimal inconsistencies, and topped the charts for quite sometime. As what Mik said, yes, these two weren't unbeatable, I have to agree.
For the past couple of months, I (as well as other people I know) have been playing with techs to obviously address both Zur and Derevi, as the players piloting these decks are increasing in number (which I find alarming). These adjustments on playstyle don't guarantee wins against them, but at least, keeping the fight with both feet flat on the ground. This has also somehow compromised our deck's efficiency against other Non-Zur/Derevi decks.
What am I trying to imply? Simple, the meta can be easily distinguished by two factions: Zur/Derevi and those Non-Zur/Derevi. This has discouraged some players from playing in the locals to play competitively, and this is most disheartening, as a patron of the French DC.
I'm not that too happy nor disappointed with the recent banlist, it's just that, everything's justified this way. People from the RC don't just make rash and lackluster decisions, I'm sure they take everything into consideration. "It's hard, but it must be done."
For those who are against these banlist, it's going to be tough we know, and moving on is the only direction to go. This banlist isn't going to be forever, I believe.
Cool another boros general! I would really like to playtest my boros (Tajic) against yours, if you play in cockatrice hit me up. I usually am online at around 7pm CST
As a fellow Tajic player I suggest you run more creatures in this deck. I tried almost the same setup as you have right here but the problem with this is it is just too slow compared to other decks. With Red and White you dont have that much control capabilities unlike blue that has counters and black with discards. Tajic is not much of a threat on the 4th turn if he is the only creature on your side, sure indestructible is a plus factor but with a 2/2 body I'd just gladly take the damage he will deal.
If Zur is not that over powered, then why does he dominate almost all major tournaments? If it is so easy to destroy or counter his ability or answer those enchantments that he fetch then can you give us a commander or a deck list that can easily dominate zur/meta?
Pro Zurs = Zur is not that strong blah blah blah, can easily beat him by answering or destroying those enchantments etc etc
Anti Zurs = looking at the top 8 of all major tournaments (Zur is always present)
Who said anything about Thalia? I'm not running it. Thassa. 2U, God, Scry 1 every turn, make creatures unblockable?
>Go.dec Not to mention you have an awful mana base, 36 including Maze and Cavern, if you're using Cavern for Derevi, then you're doing it wrong.
Cavern usually names Wizard since there are nearly 10 in the deck.
36 plus 6 or 7 mana dorks? I've had no problems.
>Sure, play this variant at your locals, that's fine, but don't get mad that it's below par compared to lists that are placing.
Below par? You mean like the tournament winning deck that ran Thornwind Faeries (as well as a host of other cards I would deem highly questionable)? Yeah, you guys are really playing competitively. Wouldn't want to play against anybody running Thornwind Faeries.
So basically you are saying that your local meta with 30+ players is more competitive than Bazaar of Moxen with 100+ players?
36 lands including Maze of Ith... The mere fact that he has Maze of Ith in his Derevi deck proves that this guy is a troll or whatever.
This guy is a waste of time to be honest, let's just all move on and ignore him
Please don't call other users offensive names. Warning for flaming - BlackVise
Sorry, I'd just woken up and was typing quickly, small mistake. Survival is strong. It's the strongest card in my Skullbriar deck. But it's really not what I'm trying to do here.
Go.dec, while I haven't been on cockatrice in a few months (mostly since the server was shut down and changed), I have something like a 90% winrate in 1v1 across hundreds of games on it, mostly because the average player on cockatrice is bad. People copy decks from this forum, make at most minor changes, and play them spectacularly poorly. It's ok as a test environment, but not as good as playing with people you know to be skilled at a high level.
Do you know that before they post deck lists in this forum people test it out in Cockatrice first? Majority of the primers that I see here are created by people that I see in Cockatrice everyday. You Sir dont know what you are talking about. Even BOM regulars play tests in Cockatrice, you call them average players?
You might wanna login to Cockatrice and check out our level. Heck I'd even create a Derevi deck just to play yours, give me 30mins to an hour (I dont play Derevi because majority of players have him as the commander and I dont want to ride the trend wagon.)
Firstly, you haven't been here long. Let's start with the fact that you don't know the format well. Same goes for the other guy, frankly.
Secondly, most of the cards you just mentioned are bad in Derevi. Captain Sisay? Noob choice. Wordly Tutor is slow. Fauna Shaman is slow. I don't run Survival in Derevi because I want to play every creature I draw (and I will draw lots thanks to the choices I've made). I haven't seen any Derevi list running enlightened tutor or Natural Order. What are you going to get with NO? I'm the only player even running a green creature over 4 CC. Also, guess what - all those cards were just as good or better in Jenara and Rafiq (both of which were just unpopular, but both could be built as top tier decks - I even lost to Rafiq infect and Jenara with Edric back in the day). Jenara and Rafiq are stronger in almost every board state UNLESS there is a Rising Waters or Hokori in play. And pretty much only those two cards.
Pithing Needle and/or Revoker are cards that my playgroup has been running in every deck for a year+. If you aren't playing at least Needle in control, you aren't playing this format properly.
What we saw from this week's tournaments - 4 Derevi turned into 3 top 8 at one tournament (one of the top 4, lost to Zur). In the other, 3 Derevi turned into ZERO top 8. That's right, the "best general and deck" with 3 out of 41 slots and none of them made top 8. But 2 Geist, 1 GA, and 1 Zur did, when 3, 1, and 1 showed up respectively. The ONLY win Derevi has in a tournament is a top 2 split with a Zur, where Zur was 3 of the top 4 slots (here: http://mtgmanila.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/mtg-mnl-2013-duel-commander-championship/).
Quite frankly these calls to ban Derevi are entirely unwarranted. It's pretty ridiculous.
"Destroying the "key spells" like rising waters, bident, hokori , edric, pod, etc.... : in order to avoid the derevi deck to gain an advantage with those spells, you need to take care of them at INSTANT speed. This is very difficult because they are almost no instant permanent removal. "
Do you just lose when a sword hits play? Should I scoop every time I see a Sword of Feast and Famine in Skullbriar and don't have an answer in hand? Instant speed removal that is basically auto-include in it's colors: Vindicate. Putrefy. Beast Within. Krosan Grip. Nature's Claim. The 100 different white/black/red removal spells. Blue has 50 different counters/bounce. Green has plenty of ways to remove artifacts or enchantments at instant speed.
I'm not sure you've ever played this game, but it's called a sweeper and it ****s on Derevi. There are a number of decks that run many of them - Geist, Ruhan, GAAIV, any red deck. Several of the new generals should **** on Derevi every game (Purphoros, etc). Just because people aren't bringing those decks to your tournaments or your playgroup because you guys have some desperate need to conform by playing u/w control doesn't mean Derevi is too strong. If you get **** on by Derevi for these reasons, how do you not get **** on by Ezuri or Purph or Prossh or Skullbriar or Lyzolda? Because if I have an enchantment like Survival online for 2-3 turns in Skullbriar, you've lost that game. Is it because Rising Waters feels more oppressive (despite it not being as good).
Hell, if you are that worried about the control matchup... run propoganda and ghostly prison. These cards shut down strategies like Derevi that require hitting with lots of creatures. You know what though? The control players I know aren't whining that much.
Captain Sisay, Worldly Tutor and Fauna Shaman too slow in Derevi deck? Cool story bro. You don't play Survival of the Fittest in Derevi? Am I really the noob one here?
So you are saying I should always auto include pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, ghostly prison and propaganda in my deck just to counter Derevi? So that means I should play the game and design my deck to counter Derevi? Guess who's not powerful now sir?
You mentioned SOFAF+Skullbriar, you need to pay 3cmc to cast SOFAF and another 2 to equip, not that fast in my opinion but with Derevi once he comes into play he immediately untaps a permanent (Bloom Tender, Rofellos, Gaea's Cradle, Birthing Pod). Dont just make any noob comparisons. Auto includes like Beast Withing and Krosan Grips are good they take care of a wider range of threats than Ghostly Prison and Propaganda.
I doubt all your arguments when you mentioned that Captain Sisay is a noob choice to include in a Derevi deck specially when you run a LOT of legendary creatures and a legendary land in your deck.
Please check out that link and give your thoughts about his list, I highly doubt that you'll tell us all here that this gentleman is a noob player coz he has Sisay.
If you havent seen anyone running Enlightened Tutor and Natural Order then please register to Woogerworks and install Cockatrice. You'll be surprised on how these cards can affect the board in general.
Yet there is little to no evidence showing that, nor has the Lock Derevi's shown consistent placement. Of the three 100+ man tournaments, we have only a single placement for the decks that run Static Orb and Rising Waters.
When you compare Derevii's top 8 chances to the number of entered Derevi's, there's simply no comparison to Zur, Grand Arbiter, or Edric and the results that they produced. When you compare the diversity pre Commander 2013 to post, there has only been a healthy improvement and an increase in rogue decks making the top 8. If Derevii was truly an unhealthy factor on the game, then we would be seeing more polarized results. The myth of Derevii being a degenerative effect on the game is pure myth.
In your meta that may be true but in cockatrice and our local meta Derevi dominates with those cards included in the deck. You forgot to mention Hokori and other auto includes that win games like Edric, coastal piracy, natural order, gaea's cradle etc etc.
Many of these cards aren't even abusable with Derevi and just strong in general. Only Birthing Pod and Captain is of note. If you are going to complain that a blue general has access to Jace and Enlightened Tutor, you're reasoning for banning falls on shoddy ground.
No deck in the top 8 has yet to run Fauna Shaman. You are vastly misinformed for Derevi. You should be talking about Opposition and bloom Tender, not cards like this.
I also really question your knowledge of the format when you say that Grand Arbiter is slow and inconsistent. This was the most powerful deck in the format for many months, dominating heavily and taking several top places in multiple large scale tournaments prior to the Winter Orb ban, something Derevi has yet to do.
Really? Rafiq and Jenara? Dude, they dont have tap/untap ability and unlimited casting ability. What I'm saying is those generals that you mentioned doesnt have the ability to abuse Bloom Tender and Gaea's Cradle and we all know how easy it is to fetch those cards in that deck. And they run Derevi without Fauna Shaman? Survival with legs? Cmon man, you should see how that dude plays in Derevi.
Yes I may not be that active playing in local competitions but I always play online in Cockatrice and when it comes to comparing decks I assure you Grand Arbiter is too slow compared to Derevi.
Look, Derevi's ability being strong with particular cards is a reason to consider banning those cards. The RC has repeatedly said that they're going to look at banning problematic cards before dropping the hammer on a general.
Hokori and Rising Waters are both 4-cmc. Cheating Hokori out requires the use of a sorcery-speed ability on a (basically 3)-cmc artifact. I'm sorry, but every single color has cheap, efficient, effective ways of disrupting that. Unless you're playing mono R or mono B, you have ways of dealing with enchantments.
Is it hard to deal with them against a Derevi deck? Of course, or Derevi decks wouldn't play them.
If Winter Orb effects prove to be too strong, then the RC can consider banning Hokori or Rising Waters before they jump the gun and ban Derevi.
Also, if these effects are so amazing, why has GAAIV basically dropped out of the top tier? Since the ban on Orb he has seriously faded. He interacts great with those effects and those cards are in his colours, so if they're the reason Derevi is dominating, why weren't they a huge problem with GAAIV?
First, Derevi can be casted at the 2nd turn and flash like ability in the 3rd turn (with mana dorks, derevi is almost consistent with turn 1 mana dork), so a 4cmc spell is really is to cast in this deck and bant has access to tutors for artifacts, enchantments and creatures. Do I even have to mention his ability to tap/untap lands and mana dorks so you can cast another creature, leave a blocker open or re-use birthing pod?
Second, GAAIV is too slow compared to derevi. Never compare those two generals in terms of power and consistency.
My point is, Derevi as a general in 1v1 is just too strong. The consistency level of his deck is pretty insane, access to tutors, counterspells, enchantment/artifact removals and mana dorks! Imagine a llanowar elf attacking you with derevi in play can untap gaea's cradle and cast another dork or two so that in the next turn he can lock you with winter orb effects.
Remember, Derevi has access to:
Enlightened Tutor
Birthing Pod
Survival of the Fittest
Fauna Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith
Worldly Tutor
Eladamri's Call
Natural Order
Captain Sisay
Jace, TMS
T1 Dork
T2 Derevi
T3 Hokori
T4 Edric
That's virtually cast all you want after Force
Infraction for trolling. - cryogen
Well said.
Mana Dorks:
+ Llanowar Elves
+ Boreal Druid
+ Fyndhorn Elves
+ Arbor Elf
+ Birds of Paradise
+ Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Lands:
- Vivd Grove
- Rupture Spire
- Ancient Ziggurat
- 7 Forests
+ Tectonic Edge
+ Ghost Quarter
+ Wasteland
+ Gaea's Cradle
+ Yavimaya Hollow
Creatures:
+ Thragtusk
+ Terastodon
+ Craterhoof Behemoth
+ Scavenging Ooze
+ Primeval Titan
+ Fauna Shaman
+ Eternal Witness
+ Acidic Slime
Sorceries:
+ Natural Order
+ Green Sun's Zenith
+ Harmonize
+ Plow Under
+ Reap and Sow
+ Creeping Mold
+ Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Enchantments:
+ Lignify
+ Mirri's Guile
+ Sylvan Library
+ Survival of the Fittest
Artifacts:
+ Lightning Greaves
+ Umezawa's Jitte
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Sword of Fire and Ice
+ Skullclamp
Instants:
+ Krosan Grip
+ Worldly Tutor
Planeswalker:
+ Garruk Wildspeaker
If Zur is not that over powered, then why does he dominate almost all major tournaments? If it is so easy to destroy or counter his ability or answer those enchantments that he fetch then can you give us a commander or a deck list that can easily dominate zur/meta?
Pro Zurs = Zur is not that strong blah blah blah, can easily beat him by answering or destroying those enchantments etc etc
Anti Zurs = looking at the top 8 of all major tournaments (Zur is always present)
Looks like Zur is not over powered. Seems legit.
Timezone: GMT +8
Deck Code: ???
Commander: ???
So basically you are saying that your local meta with 30+ players is more competitive than Bazaar of Moxen with 100+ players?
36 lands including Maze of Ith... The mere fact that he has Maze of Ith in his Derevi deck proves that this guy is a troll or whatever.
This guy is a waste of time to be honest, let's just all move on and ignore him
Please don't call other users offensive names. Warning for flaming - BlackVise
Do you know that before they post deck lists in this forum people test it out in Cockatrice first? Majority of the primers that I see here are created by people that I see in Cockatrice everyday. You Sir dont know what you are talking about. Even BOM regulars play tests in Cockatrice, you call them average players?
You might wanna login to Cockatrice and check out our level. Heck I'd even create a Derevi deck just to play yours, give me 30mins to an hour (I dont play Derevi because majority of players have him as the commander and I dont want to ride the trend wagon.)
Captain Sisay, Worldly Tutor and Fauna Shaman too slow in Derevi deck? Cool story bro. You don't play Survival of the Fittest in Derevi? Am I really the noob one here?
So you are saying I should always auto include pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, ghostly prison and propaganda in my deck just to counter Derevi? So that means I should play the game and design my deck to counter Derevi? Guess who's not powerful now sir?
You mentioned SOFAF+Skullbriar, you need to pay 3cmc to cast SOFAF and another 2 to equip, not that fast in my opinion but with Derevi once he comes into play he immediately untaps a permanent (Bloom Tender, Rofellos, Gaea's Cradle, Birthing Pod). Dont just make any noob comparisons. Auto includes like Beast Withing and Krosan Grips are good they take care of a wider range of threats than Ghostly Prison and Propaganda.
I doubt all your arguments when you mentioned that Captain Sisay is a noob choice to include in a Derevi deck specially when you run a LOT of legendary creatures and a legendary land in your deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=563628
Please check out that link and give your thoughts about his list, I highly doubt that you'll tell us all here that this gentleman is a noob player coz he has Sisay.
If you havent seen anyone running Enlightened Tutor and Natural Order then please register to Woogerworks and install Cockatrice. You'll be surprised on how these cards can affect the board in general.
In your meta that may be true but in cockatrice and our local meta Derevi dominates with those cards included in the deck. You forgot to mention Hokori and other auto includes that win games like Edric, coastal piracy, natural order, gaea's cradle etc etc.
Really? Rafiq and Jenara? Dude, they dont have tap/untap ability and unlimited casting ability. What I'm saying is those generals that you mentioned doesnt have the ability to abuse Bloom Tender and Gaea's Cradle and we all know how easy it is to fetch those cards in that deck. And they run Derevi without Fauna Shaman? Survival with legs? Cmon man, you should see how that dude plays in Derevi.
Yes I may not be that active playing in local competitions but I always play online in Cockatrice and when it comes to comparing decks I assure you Grand Arbiter is too slow compared to Derevi.
First, Derevi can be casted at the 2nd turn and flash like ability in the 3rd turn (with mana dorks, derevi is almost consistent with turn 1 mana dork), so a 4cmc spell is really is to cast in this deck and bant has access to tutors for artifacts, enchantments and creatures. Do I even have to mention his ability to tap/untap lands and mana dorks so you can cast another creature, leave a blocker open or re-use birthing pod?
Second, GAAIV is too slow compared to derevi. Never compare those two generals in terms of power and consistency.
My point is, Derevi as a general in 1v1 is just too strong. The consistency level of his deck is pretty insane, access to tutors, counterspells, enchantment/artifact removals and mana dorks! Imagine a llanowar elf attacking you with derevi in play can untap gaea's cradle and cast another dork or two so that in the next turn he can lock you with winter orb effects.
Remember, Derevi has access to:
Enlightened Tutor
Birthing Pod
Survival of the Fittest
Fauna Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith
Worldly Tutor
Eladamri's Call
Natural Order
Captain Sisay
Jace, TMS