As my playgroup doesn't mind proxying unreleased cards, so long as we obtain them as soon as possible after a release, I've been messing around with some of the new cards from Born of the Gods mentioned in my earlier post as well as Hellrider and Mirror Entity.
These are the cards that are not being added into the deck at the moment and why.
Hellrider - It doesn't do enough in this deck as far as multiplayer is concerned. Either it comes down earlier in the game, and it's damage doesn't make that much of a difference or it comes down when I could win without it and ends up being win more.
Spirit of the Labyrinth - I do like this card for the hate it brings to a few decks in my meta, but it's not worth it most of the time.
Plea for Guidance - The mana cost is a little steep for what I want it to do. In this case, I think Enlightened Tutor is just a better option overall. Typically I want to grab something like Aura Shards or Basilisk Collar early for control.
Mirror Entity - I do like this card, I'm just unsure of where to put it. Still pending a final decision.
I love both her ramp and ability to color fix by grabbing both shock lands and ABUR duels. I managed to pick up a copy of her at the prerelease, so it's a done deal.
I like the collar more. It's cheaper to equip, so you can get it out earlier for better early game control of the board. You also get life link out of it, which is fantastic.
If I wanted redundancy, I would even run the new Gorgon's Head or Nightshade Peddler before the spike, just because of their low cost.
While brainstorming ideas, those were the only six drops I could think of. I like the idea of Inferno and maybe Duplicant. Inferno seems like it'd be really good with all the deck's deathtouch enablers, like Basilisk Collar and Bow of Nylea. The more I think about it, Inferno would be fit the bill as to what I'm looking for.
I'd also look at mane (re?) adding in Avgenger of Zendikar. Yes, he makes tokens, but h self pumps them and is synergistic with quite a few cards you already have. Especially Craterhoof Behemoth/Tooth an Nail/A haste enabler for the plants.
True, true. Maybe I will consider adding Kamahl. My only problem with adding him is that my playgroup plays lots of targeted removal, so he doesn't stand much of a chance. I'm looking more for cards that do something when they enter the battlefield or leave play, and not so much cards with highly-cost activated abilities. My playgroup really frowns on land destruction, so I wouldn't really activate his first ability in response to a wrath. I like the idea of activating the ability with Elesh Norn out, but I don't like the idea of risking my lands.
Long story short, Kamahl's a really good card, but it's just not I'm looking for.
It's still a nice threat to have. I run both in my deck, and even then I've only used it as land destruction once outside of 1v1 match ups, to keep myself from dying to a Nylea deck.
Kamahl is good in any aggro list. You're running a ton of mana doubling to make his pump effect deadly. Token decks like him because you don't need to use his ability that many times to get value (due to the number of bodies). With all of that mana though, you can just make your guys huge.
He also does something not commonly found in our colors: he gives a degree of wrath protection with the threat of blowing up their lands if they do. He also, as mentioned earlier, works fantastically with Elesh Norn for a rather mean lockdown.
Eww 6+ player games? No wonder aggro doesn't do well in your meta. I play in strictly 3 and 4 player pods at most. Very rarely do we get a 5 player game. And at 3 player games my deck is just the best. And at 4 it's a fight to win. I usually have to combo out those games to finish off the last player or two.
I bet my card choices in both decks make more sense now, huh? I'll use my token deck as an example. I don't need to be the fastest deck in the group when there's six people. I just need to avoid being the primary target of my five opponents and start setting up anthem effects so at I can drop a haste enabler and a ton of tokens to kill someone before they get board wiped.
Please swords my Elvish Mystic. They see the threats of elves. Xenagos looks like he does some really silly things though mid/late game. And our early game is already incredible. My fear is just running out of targets late game for Kerametra.
The problem with them using swords o path on a mana dork, is that it typically slows me down enough that by the time I can set up my board to start killing people, someone can just wrath it all away. And with five other decks, wrath effects are super commonplace. I'm also not worried about my early game. I'm worried about being a relevant threat after early game is over, once everyone starts playing bigger threats.
The problem with aggro decks. Lowering your curve is crucial. (As I just replaced a sol ring with a 4 drop. xD) Zo-Zu/Marath 2HG seems fantastic though.
Having the lowest curve isn't always the most crucial thing in a large game. The faster you get going (not counting a god hand), the faster you draw everyone's attention.
As for the two-headed giant, his deck hurts everyone, incline himself and his partner.
Entity is bonkers. And supports one of my favorite combos from the day it was legal in Standard.
I like it, I'm just debating as to how much. What I really want is to find another token generator, not another pump. >.< I'm also on the fence about Luminarch. Having tokens tied to an enchantment makes recovering from board wipes much easier.
I was mostly just curious to see if any other Marath deck would run it, and you and ToSGod are in the best positions to actually make use out of him. I don't run Earthcraft, so he would only be attack fodder for me.
I won't nessisarily build all of me decks on a budget, but I will build some. On the highest end of my decks I have Damia and Marath, and I actually didn't spend much on either of them, as I already had all of the most expensive cards.
Then you take that and compair it to Lovisa, who I spent all of 30 dollars on.
Our local Oloro deck is a pillowfort deck. As pretty much all of my decks rely on combat damage as a win condition, I try to deal as much damage as possible to him before he can get protection out.
Other than that, I'm not sure. He's not really run much in my playgroup, as a few people run things like Rain of Gore.
Fated Retribution - So far, the Fated cyle has been widely dissapointing. An instant speed board wipe is nice, especially one that hits planeswalkers but I just don't see the mana cost being worth it. I would probably run it at six mana, but with Marath as a general, the ability to clear planeswalkers isn't an issue.
Spirit of the Labyrinth - A hatebear that makes everyone sad, including it's controller. While it does stop a lot of strategies in my playgroup, I likely won't run it beyond 'sideboarding' it in when I play certain 1v1 matchups. I do intend to try it, but I doubt it will make the cut.
Archetype of Courage - I can see this card being very good in some aggro strategies, but first strike won't be enough to save the vast majority of my tokens.
God-Favored General - I am very torn on the Inspired mechanic. It has some cool applications, but without running something like Earthcraft to safely tap down my own creatures, it gets much worse. As a 1/1, he won't be relevant outside of the first two or three turns and his Inspired cost is fairly steep for what you get. Overall, I feel he's just too underwhelming.
Plea for Guidance - I run a fair amount of enchantments in this deck, so this has potential to grab a lot of utility. It's worth trying, but I'm unsure of where it would fit.
Archetype of Aggression - I was very surpriesd by red getting trample for their Archetype. Unfortunately, 1/1 creatures can't use trample very well, and that's the majority of what this deck produces.
Felhide Spiritbinder - This card is like an Inspired version of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (so strictly worse). I intend to test this, however with no way other than attacking to trigger Inspired, I doubt he will make the cut.
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Courser of Kruphix - Strictly worse than Oracle of Mul Daya. While it's a good addition to a deck should you need the ability to filter through lands, I don't see any reason to cut a card to include it when I already use Oracle.
Nessian Demolok - I believe this is one of the best creatures with Tribute. Unfortunately, I can see Tribute being more than lackluster in EDH. While I am running Doubling Season to make it better, I would include Acidic Slime long before this.
Hunter's Prowess - Card draw! It's a sorcery which weakens it a great deal, and I don't think it fits in the deck, but I do like this card.
Unravel the AEther - A much prettier version of Deglamer. Should my playgroup start running a large number of gods as generals, I intend to include this.
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Xenagos, God of Revels - I adore the art on this card. Sadly, it's not much good in a token deck.
Karametra, God of Harvests - While I am disappointed that Ephara, God of the Polis isn't in Nayan colors, Karametra doesn't disappoint. Her ability is a cast trigger, so it's not broken beyond belief but I believe that I cast enough creature spells to make her ability worth it. Ramp is always good.
I don't mind the white borders. They don't make that much of a difference and for the few that I have, black bordered versions tend to cost a great deal more (origin duels, and Sylvan Library) or that I prefer the art on that edition (9th edition Greater Good).
To be honest, I'm much more picky about the art than I am about the borders.
I like Linvala (assuming she's on my side of the board). She is very, very good at what she does. Makes me sad every time someone lands it against my own Marath deck.
Also, let me know what you think of Gahiji after you test him. I'm curious to know if I'm just over estimating the value of his abilities in an aggro build or not.
With Karametra, cast a creature spell, search for a Forest or Plains, put it onto the battlefield.
With Knight, sac that Forest or Plains and search for any land card, put it into play.
If I ever switch back to running a land recursion package, I would definitely add Knight back in (I've run him in this deck before). Without the setup for it though, he's... Just okay. Nothing fantastic. I'd rather grab all three of my shock lands and duels with Karametra for the soul purpose of color fixing before grabbing my Gaea's Cradle. I also can't consistantly get them out together, and with out something like Crucible of Worlds (took it out with the Knight), he becomes a much weaker draw in my eyes, unless I get very fortunate to have started with a lot of basics as I would prefer to sacrifice those first to him.
The biggest thing I would say from your list is drop some of the win more cards and lower your curve to continue the onslaught. Not to mention you need more card draw. Mentor of the Meek is insane. I rarely make tokens from Marath that are larger than 1/1s and a few times I've made 2/2s.
My problem is that they're not always win more. Our games usually have six or so players. With an aggro strategy, as soon as the primary target decks (an Azami, Lady of Scrolls combo deck and a super annoying Jenara, Asura of War deck) are killed by me, I become public enemy number one so to speak. That's one of the reasons why my token deck is built the way it is. I either need to build up a presence and go in for the long game, or try really hard to kill everyone at once.
As for Mentor the Meek, I may or may not add it. It depends on whether or not the new Spirit of the Labyrinth goes in. It does hurt me as well, but it flat out stops several strategies in my group, similarly to Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
In Aggro Xenagos is so much better it's unreal. I don't like Karametra in 3+ color decks for fear of running out of targets. Plus she costs a ton of mana and doesn't do enough on her own.
I agree, but I still intend to try the swap. After I take out one person, a wrath effect typically comes down, and I'd like a permanent resource to build up from. It's part of why I dislike mana dorks, people here will go so far as to swords them turn one, just to keep you from getting ahead.
You really have to focus on one person and not let up. Then when they are too weak to resist or are dead you work on a second. While the cards aren't as inherently strong as others, you need interact and disrupt as much as possible. And if all else fails combos are viable.
Some cards you mention...
Hellrider - You have to tell me how this works. It looked good and in my aggro list might just be bonkers.
Mirror Entity - Sooo good. And if you give +1/+1 counters around that's tacked on after Entity. So making a 1/1 then putting 3 counters on it is better than a 4/4 token. And it's a strict pump for Marath.
Reflecting Pool - I love this land. With a decent mana base it's a second Command Tower.
I defer back to the fact that I have to fight off five people, instead of three. >.< It makes that sooo much harder.
Hellrider has been really good to me. So far, my best chances with the aggro list have been when my boyfriend pulls out his Zo-Zu, the Punisher burn deck. It makes my aggro deck that much faster, and Hellrider is a really good draw even when I don't get to play against Zo-Zu. Life totals start to drop really quickly with him in play. I'm still not sure if he'll go in the token list though. I'm having trouble finding a spot for him that doesn't cancel out all of the work I just put in to lowering the curve.
I've got Mirror Entity in place of Luminarch Ascension at the moment, and it might become permanent. While Luminarch is really, really good I think it draws more hate than it's worth.
A little bit of an update (for the token list), as well:
These are the cards that are not being added into the deck at the moment and why.
- Hellrider - It doesn't do enough in this deck as far as multiplayer is concerned. Either it comes down earlier in the game, and it's damage doesn't make that much of a difference or it comes down when I could win without it and ends up being win more.
- Spirit of the Labyrinth - I do like this card for the hate it brings to a few decks in my meta, but it's not worth it most of the time.
- Plea for Guidance - The mana cost is a little steep for what I want it to do. In this case, I think Enlightened Tutor is just a better option overall. Typically I want to grab something like Aura Shards or Basilisk Collar early for control.
- Mirror Entity - I do like this card, I'm just unsure of where to put it. Still pending a final decision.
- Fellhide Spiritbinder[c/] - A second, fair Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a nice way to get my combo with Purphoros, God of the Forge and Avenger of Zendikar off, but I have no safe way to tap it without running Earthcraft.
- Unravel the AEther - Still have a spot open for this, but I haven't needed the extra tuck effect quite yet.
.Now the actual change:
Out
Mycoloth
In
Karametra, God of Harvests
I love both her ramp and ability to color fix by grabbing both shock lands and ABUR duels. I managed to pick up a copy of her at the prerelease, so it's a done deal.
If I wanted redundancy, I would even run the new Gorgon's Head or Nightshade Peddler before the spike, just because of their low cost.
I'd also look at mane (re?) adding in Avgenger of Zendikar. Yes, he makes tokens, but h self pumps them and is synergistic with quite a few cards you already have. Especially Craterhoof Behemoth/Tooth an Nail/A haste enabler for the plants.
It's still a nice threat to have. I run both in my deck, and even then I've only used it as land destruction once outside of 1v1 match ups, to keep myself from dying to a Nylea deck.
Other than that, all I can think of for six drops are Duplicant, Soul of the Harvest, Rampaging Baloths, Inferno Titan, Vigor, and the previously mentioned Deadwood Treefolk
He also does something not commonly found in our colors: he gives a degree of wrath protection with the threat of blowing up their lands if they do. He also, as mentioned earlier, works fantastically with Elesh Norn for a rather mean lockdown.
I bet my card choices in both decks make more sense now, huh?
I'll play anything that let's me stall Azami and the like, to let me kill a more threatening deck first.
The problem with them using swords o path on a mana dork, is that it typically slows me down enough that by the time I can set up my board to start killing people, someone can just wrath it all away. And with five other decks, wrath effects are super commonplace. I'm also not worried about my early game. I'm worried about being a relevant threat after early game is over, once everyone starts playing bigger threats.
Having the lowest curve isn't always the most crucial thing in a large game. The faster you get going (not counting a god hand), the faster you draw everyone's attention.
As for the two-headed giant, his deck hurts everyone, incline himself and his partner.
I like it, I'm just debating as to how much. What I really want is to find another token generator, not another pump. >.< I'm also on the fence about Luminarch. Having tokens tied to an enchantment makes recovering from board wipes much easier.
Then you take that and compair it to Lovisa, who I spent all of 30 dollars on.
Other than that, I'm not sure. He's not really run much in my playgroup, as a few people run things like Rain of Gore.
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Artifacts
Land
Conclusion
So currently I intend to test Spirit of the Labyrinth, Plea for Guidance, Felhide Spiritbinder, and Karametra, God of Harvests, with Unravel the AEther as a potitenial add in based on my meta. Karametra is the only one that will likely show up in the list, but this set has provided some interesting cards. I was disappointed by the token cards overall, however.
To be honest, I'm much more picky about the art than I am about the borders.
I like Linvala (assuming she's on my side of the board). She is very, very good at what she does. Makes me sad every time someone lands it against my own Marath deck.
Also, let me know what you think of Gahiji after you test him. I'm curious to know if I'm just over estimating the value of his abilities in an aggro build or not.
If I ever switch back to running a land recursion package, I would definitely add Knight back in (I've run him in this deck before). Without the setup for it though, he's... Just okay. Nothing fantastic. I'd rather grab all three of my shock lands and duels with Karametra for the soul purpose of color fixing before grabbing my Gaea's Cradle. I also can't consistantly get them out together, and with out something like Crucible of Worlds (took it out with the Knight), he becomes a much weaker draw in my eyes, unless I get very fortunate to have started with a lot of basics as I would prefer to sacrifice those first to him.
My problem is that they're not always win more. Our games usually have six or so players. With an aggro strategy, as soon as the primary target decks (an Azami, Lady of Scrolls combo deck and a super annoying Jenara, Asura of War deck) are killed by me, I become public enemy number one so to speak. That's one of the reasons why my token deck is built the way it is. I either need to build up a presence and go in for the long game, or try really hard to kill everyone at once.
As for Mentor the Meek, I may or may not add it. It depends on whether or not the new Spirit of the Labyrinth goes in. It does hurt me as well, but it flat out stops several strategies in my group, similarly to Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
I agree, but I still intend to try the swap. After I take out one person, a wrath effect typically comes down, and I'd like a permanent resource to build up from. It's part of why I dislike mana dorks, people here will go so far as to swords them turn one, just to keep you from getting ahead.
Mirari's Wake is fantastic in this. The problem has been figuring out what to take out for both it and Exploration.
I defer back to the fact that I have to fight off five people, instead of three. >.< It makes that sooo much harder.
Hellrider has been really good to me. So far, my best chances with the aggro list have been when my boyfriend pulls out his Zo-Zu, the Punisher burn deck. It makes my aggro deck that much faster, and Hellrider is a really good draw even when I don't get to play against Zo-Zu. Life totals start to drop really quickly with him in play. I'm still not sure if he'll go in the token list though. I'm having trouble finding a spot for him that doesn't cancel out all of the work I just put in to lowering the curve.
I've got Mirror Entity in place of Luminarch Ascension at the moment, and it might become permanent. While Luminarch is really, really good I think it draws more hate than it's worth.
A little bit of an update (for the token list), as well:
Out
Ranger's Path
Gilded Lotus
1x Mountain
In
Exploration
Mana Crypt
Reflecting Pool
I'm trying to speed up my early game, and help with color fixing, for the most part.