Still working on straight R/G here. I think this deck can beat some of the toughest matchups out there like the cat combo, b/g counters and g/w tokens. B/U control has been my toughest matchup so far.
2 collective defiance in the mainboard. This card is crazy good against planeswalkers which have been a problem for me. It's also some really good defense against control players. Making them discard their hand, especially after they've played an anticipate can tip the card advantage in our favor.
I'm running 22 lands which is a lot it seems for most deck lists here. I find the deck really wants to hit all of it's land drops on curve and untapped. 20 lands just leads to too many mulligans. Down to only 1 Servant of the Conduit because the lands can support the deck just fine, despite playing 2 chandra and 3 collective defiance all together. Anyone have thoughts on the land base? I'm considering cutting a land, but as you'll see the mana curve jumps up a bit when sideboarding.
My final question is, should I put in a Heart of Kiran in there somewhere? I've been hesitant with vehicles as they end up sitting around like an abandoned car in a redneck's yard vs. control. When decks can one for one our creatures with removal and keep it up all game long, running vehicles mb seems like a bad idea.
Pro tour was this week-end with a huge amount of Mardu vehicules. With only 4 harnessed lightning MB and literally nothing in your MB to deal with Heart of Kiran you just fold to it. Not a good place to be if your meta follow the trend.
Still, I think 20 lands is a bit dangerous, 21 seems safer to me. Then there is the longtusk cub issue. Without blossoming defense I really don't like sinking energy into him. I would much rather play servant of the conduit instead, shaving a thing here and there to up the curve.
I mean, it depends. I've found Servant of the Conduit to be really subpar this season -- although I tend to play greedy mana bases. Playing a 4 drop on turn 3 doesn't really make up for the tempo loss of playing a bad 2 drop. Longtusk Cub can sometimes shield himself from Shock -- which Servant can never do on the draw. I'd rather play 1-4 on curve and then try to hop the curve with Rishkar, Peema Renegade from 4-5.
Notably, Juza's list shields itself really well from Shock. Rishkar and Brawler are the only obvious targets. The list, like other Vehicles lists, is a Heart of Kiran list with a bunch of recursive threats like Rampager and Scrounger to crew.
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I concur that 21 lands is right. I'd rather have a more consistent curve and flood than have an inconsistent curve.
Juza said in the tech that he only played one Rishkar because he was expecting more control. I'm on board with this. If your meta is full of Jeskai and UB, then more Trackers makes sense. If not, then I'd play the 2nd Rishkar since he's one of the best ways to push your board advantage. Tracker is just too mana intensive to beat a fast deck like Vehicles.
I agree on most of your points here. Maybe just going for the cub as a threatening 2 drop is better. I'll try some more.
I just don't agree on Natural state. It allows you to kill the most threatening card in the format (Heart of Kiran) without loosing tempo, it's very important. There is a case to be made trying to exile scrapheap but the real threats in mardu vehicules are the vehicules. Cubs and rampager can easily block the scrounger. Also it can hit stasis snare and quarantine fields that are still played in a Tier 2 deck GW tokens.
Aetherstorm Roc is no constructed card. PT was this week end, I think deck list should take that into account now.
I disagree. I think it's a very constructed playable card and underrated. Looking at cards vs only Heart and Harvester is a very linear way of thinking. At least I can only assume that's what you're talking about, as you gave no real explanation besides what amounts to, card bad.
Yes I was referring to Heart of Kiran and Aethersphere Harvester. There was this big tournament full of pro players, just this week end, called the Pro Tour and none of them pros thought that the Roc was good enough. You can play the Roc as much as you want. He's just gonna look ridiculous facing Heart, Aethersphere and Mindwrack demon that's all.
On a more serious note I tested some games with the Juza list and as some of you guys said already, the black splash for Unlicensed and scrapheap is great. Mana is less consistent but those 3 extra damages are bonkers, and the recursion of scrapheap against control, UR dynamo and the like just wins you game.
Still, I think 20 lands is a bit dangerous, 21 seems safer to me. Then there is the longtusk cub issue. Without blossoming defense I really don't like sinking energy into him. I would much rather play servant of the conduit instead, shaving a thing here and there to up the curve. Something like that :
If I had to modify the SB I'll put at least 2 natural state and 1 release the gremlins. I'll also add 2 blossoming defense. It's good against removal, and especially good against Unlicensed if it saves you 3 life.
Am I completely wrong in switching cubs for servants ?
4 blossoming defense is at least 3 too many. It feels bad to die against combo with blossoming defense in hand when you could have a shock instead. It also feels bad to have a gearhulk + snake played against you when you could have killed the snake earlier if your blossoming defense were incendiary flow instead
You need to be able to interact against GB and Jeskai saheeli and the format as a whole.
One thing on Greenbelt rampager. I like it a lot, but he is not that good in multiple. Having a card that consume energy actually makes some of your play awkward, like not having this extra energy for harnessed lightning to kill a 4 toughness creature. I decided to go down to 3 instead of 4.
The deck is a midrange deck that go a bit faster than the GB counter deck. But you'll die if the game stalls. So why not cutting the cubs and just replace them with Verdurous gearhulk? Then you'll have the staying power to fight through their blockers. The card is very strong and putting counters on an hydra is a great feeling. I advise all of you to make some space for this card.
I'm not yet sold on Heart of kiran, I just think that Harvester is better. Doesn't die to graps nor fatal push (unless revolted) and lifelink is a much better keyword than vigilance, hands down. But I'll be trying heart some more. It might be slightly better if there is not too much GB around. The 3 crew is not a problem at all for this deck so the fact it cost 2 makes it good for the curve.
It's clear that if the meta is full of ballista, pummeler combo is plain bad. Just don't play the deck in that case.
The pummer deck normally is good agaisnt creature deck because they have less interaction and you can just combo them out. But now with the meta being Jeskai saheeli and BG Ballista I don't think the deck is good anymore. Midrange is the way.
Agree on your analysis on Cubs/Rampager. One thing not discussed much here is how well Rampager fits the curve. It adds something to play turn 1. It also allows you to put 2 threats turn 3 and this does put a lot of pressure on the board. Only having 2 drops was a problem for a supposedly "beat down deck".
A 3/4 body is great, huge roadblock against aggro, survives a lot of removal.
And yes Red is good for Brawler. Good players will tend to sideboard out their Gideon against you because of him. He does die to shock, but at least nets you some energy.
Sin Prodder is garbage. Shock is in the format, played in a lot of decks. Even if the card is in the format for some time, there is not a single copy of it in any major tournaments top 8. Just forget about it. If you want a 3 mana creature with some form of card advantage, you have Tireless Tracker
On Verdurous Gearhulk. He was very rarely mentionned in this thread, because the deck wanted to go low to go under Emrakul. Now Emrakul is gone and you see a resurgence of Midrange deck playing it, like GB. With the snake on the battlefield the effect is bonkers, but even without the snek it's still very good. I think 2 or 3 Verdurous Gearhulk as the curve topper of the deck is in order now. I playtested it and it's very good. A few tokens on your hydra and you have the biggest creature on the board with no removals touching it.
Ofc you would be right to say "Then why not just playing G/B counter, it's the better Gearhulk deck !" I think the answer is Chandra, ToD, Bristling hydra, flexible removals (Shock and incendiary flow) and the ability to splash blue for Negate SB and my now new favorite confiscation coup. Also Woodland wanderer is alright.
Juste remove the pummeler and pumps spells, replcace by the midrange package : Chandra, tracker and some shocks.
Guys have you noticed htat a lot of the 5-0 list on MODO are temmur energy or pummeler combo ? Must be viable then ! Or maybe there is not many GB counters deck on MODO ?
has an okay matchup against it, unless they drop back to back mindwrack demon. Lathnu hellion actually put a lot of pressure on them.
What do you guys think ?
As mentioned above, I think yoiu misunderstand - the point of Pummeler isn't t obe a small aggro - the point is to win with combo or with large evasive creatures.
So I've been playing Pummeler since around the 2nd week after Kaladesh's release. I've piloted the deck to 2nd place finishes at PPTQ's (literally always lost first place to god damn Reflector Mage) and have earned enough tickets with the deck on MTGO to buy myself BG Delirium. I'm mentioning this so you don't think my opinion comes from someone who has no experience playing the deck.
I completely agree with your point that the goal, the objective of Pummeler, is to play Pummeler, play LtL/Rampage, pump it twice and smash for 20. You know how often that actually happens for me? Tops maybe 15% of all my games. Look at most of the creatures this deck runs: Bristling Hydra, Longtusk Cub, Servant of the Conduit, Electrostatic Pummeler, Voltaic Brawler. Of those one one of them has any form of evasion. And it's temporary, not always online evasion. So your statement of "to win or combo with large evasive creatures" is factually incorrect.
The point of Pummeler is to use a large number of low to the ground efficient creatures where you are able to take advantage of insane pumpspells and knock your opponent flat on their face.
I definitely agree with you, Pummeler isn't at all about being a small aggro deck. But including Enerphant doesn't make it small aggro. It makes the deck a more efficient beat down and combo deck because you have access to more efficient creatures to destroy your opponent with.
The elephant is really good, anybody saying the contrary hasn't played with it yet.
Would you mind sharing your combo list? I'll go back to pummeller combo for the first week or so and I'm still on the fence on how many pump spells I should run.
So I have been toying with Midrange version and I saw an idea of putting Elder Deep-Fiend into the deck, so I have done some testing. After some games I feel like EDF adds versatility to the deck, being able to tap blocking creatures to go in for lethal, saving from being killed by aggro deck, even tapping Marvel in response to him getting energy. I was even able to use EDF + Kozilek's Return combo and wreck in mirror(though I don't have a way to get Kozilek's into graveyard other than casting it). As for emerge targets we can emerge Servant of the Conduit once she outlives her purpose, Rogue Refiner is great to emerge, since after ETB he doesn't do that much. One of the best starts I had was T1 - Attune T2- Servant T3- Hydra T4- EDF on opponent's upkeep. I really like this card.
List is also updated with Greenbelt Rampager which proved to be great card overall making really explosive turns possible.
I am thinking If I should keep Incendiary Flow or replace it with Shock for example, but 2 damage only is not enough sometimes, to be honest I think this will be versatile slot depending on what meta looks like. Maybe even getting counter in form of Revolutionary Rebuff will be more beneficial ?
I threw out Whirler Virtuoso, however I am wondering If I should bring him back - the problem is I don't know what should I replace ? I like Refiner, but maybe it is redundant with Tireless Tracker? Unanswered Tracker is great, but both Refiner and Virtuoso provides much needed energy. I need to decide between 3 Refiner/3 Trackers, 3 Virtuoso/3 Trackers, 3 Refiners/3 Virtuoso. Opinions ?
SB still in shambles, since it will mostly depends on meta ... For sure I will have shock, negates and kozilek's.
Liking a lot the EDF in the deck. It's a very powerful card and with rogue refiner you have a good sac outlet. I tried a few games and it has been good. I'm just worried about its uses against control. I'll test some more !
Pro tour was this week-end with a huge amount of Mardu vehicules. With only 4 harnessed lightning MB and literally nothing in your MB to deal with Heart of Kiran you just fold to it. Not a good place to be if your meta follow the trend.
I agree on most of your points here. Maybe just going for the cub as a threatening 2 drop is better. I'll try some more.
I just don't agree on Natural state. It allows you to kill the most threatening card in the format (Heart of Kiran) without loosing tempo, it's very important. There is a case to be made trying to exile scrapheap but the real threats in mardu vehicules are the vehicules. Cubs and rampager can easily block the scrounger. Also it can hit stasis snare and quarantine fields that are still played in a Tier 2 deck GW tokens.
A mix of Natural state and
As a one of he is just bad against control, you switch him game 2 and 3 for a tracker.
Yes I was referring to Heart of Kiran and Aethersphere Harvester. There was this big tournament full of pro players, just this week end, called the Pro Tour and none of them pros thought that the Roc was good enough. You can play the Roc as much as you want. He's just gonna look ridiculous facing Heart, Aethersphere and Mindwrack demon that's all.
On a more serious note I tested some games with the Juza list and as some of you guys said already, the black splash for Unlicensed and scrapheap is great. Mana is less consistent but those 3 extra damages are bonkers, and the recursion of scrapheap against control, UR dynamo and the like just wins you game.
Still, I think 20 lands is a bit dangerous, 21 seems safer to me. Then there is the longtusk cub issue. Without blossoming defense I really don't like sinking energy into him. I would much rather play servant of the conduit instead, shaving a thing here and there to up the curve. Something like that :
4x Greenbelt Rampager
4x Servant of the conduit
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
1x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Verdurous gearhulk
1x Aethersphere Harvester
1x Fleetwheel Cruiser
2x Heart of Kiran
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Removals/sorceries
2x Harnessed Lightning
2x Shock
4x Unlicensed Disintegration
4x Attune with aether
4x Aether Hub
4x Attune with Aether
4x Blooming Marsh
5x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Game Trail
1x Cinder Glade
If I had to modify the SB I'll put at least 2 natural state and 1 release the gremlins. I'll also add 2 blossoming defense. It's good against removal, and especially good against Unlicensed if it saves you 3 life.
Am I completely wrong in switching cubs for servants ?
You need to be able to interact against GB and Jeskai saheeli and the format as a whole.
One thing on Greenbelt rampager. I like it a lot, but he is not that good in multiple. Having a card that consume energy actually makes some of your play awkward, like not having this extra energy for harnessed lightning to kill a 4 toughness creature. I decided to go down to 3 instead of 4.
The deck is a midrange deck that go a bit faster than the GB counter deck. But you'll die if the game stalls. So why not cutting the cubs and just replace them with Verdurous gearhulk? Then you'll have the staying power to fight through their blockers. The card is very strong and putting counters on an hydra is a great feeling. I advise all of you to make some space for this card.
I'm not yet sold on Heart of kiran, I just think that Harvester is better. Doesn't die to graps nor fatal push (unless revolted) and lifelink is a much better keyword than vigilance, hands down. But I'll be trying heart some more. It might be slightly better if there is not too much GB around. The 3 crew is not a problem at all for this deck so the fact it cost 2 makes it good for the curve.
Here is my current build :
3x Greenbelt Rampager
4x Servant of the Conduit
4x Voltaic Brawler
2x Rishkar, peema renegade
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Bristling Hydra
2x Verdurous gearhulk
Sorcery (6)
4x Attune with Aether
2x Incendiary Flow
4x Harnessed Lightning
1x Shock
Other (5)
2x Heart of Kiran
1x Skysovereign, consul flagship
2x Chandra, torch of defiance
Land (21)
4x Aether Hub
4x Game trail
5x Forest
4x Mountain
3x Botanical Sanctum
4x Negate
1x island
4x lathnu hellion
2x confiscation coup
2x shock
2x probably artifact removal ?
The pummer deck normally is good agaisnt creature deck because they have less interaction and you can just combo them out. But now with the meta being Jeskai saheeli and BG Ballista I don't think the deck is good anymore. Midrange is the way.
A 3/4 body is great, huge roadblock against aggro, survives a lot of removal.
And yes Red is good for Brawler. Good players will tend to sideboard out their Gideon against you because of him. He does die to shock, but at least nets you some energy.
On Verdurous Gearhulk. He was very rarely mentionned in this thread, because the deck wanted to go low to go under Emrakul. Now Emrakul is gone and you see a resurgence of Midrange deck playing it, like GB. With the snake on the battlefield the effect is bonkers, but even without the snek it's still very good. I think 2 or 3 Verdurous Gearhulk as the curve topper of the deck is in order now. I playtested it and it's very good. A few tokens on your hydra and you have the biggest creature on the board with no removals touching it.
Ofc you would be right to say "Then why not just playing G/B counter, it's the better Gearhulk deck !" I think the answer is Chandra, ToD, Bristling hydra, flexible removals (Shock and incendiary flow) and the ability to splash blue for Negate SB and my now new favorite confiscation coup. Also Woodland wanderer is alright.
Guys have you noticed htat a lot of the 5-0 list on MODO are temmur energy or pummeler combo ? Must be viable then ! Or maybe there is not many GB counters deck on MODO ?
Here to ask a few questions. How has the matchup against GB counters/Delirium been ?
It seems to me that the GR energy version linked here
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111141
has an okay matchup against it, unless they drop back to back mindwrack demon. Lathnu hellion actually put a lot of pressure on them.
What do you guys think ?
The elephant is really good, anybody saying the contrary hasn't played with it yet.
Would you mind sharing your combo list? I'll go back to pummeller combo for the first week or so and I'm still on the fence on how many pump spells I should run.
Hi,
Liking a lot the EDF in the deck. It's a very powerful card and with rogue refiner you have a good sac outlet. I tried a few games and it has been good. I'm just worried about its uses against control. I'll test some more !