I've been dwelling on this for over a week now, and I'm trying to find some reliable ways to protect against potential disruption. Defense Grid is the only thing I can come up with in mono-red.
I think I want my list to strike a middle ground between yours and d0su's - a quick and reliable combo finish, with a backup plan of just casting huge dragons and attacking with them.
Perfectly reasonable!
Including combos is nothing bad - they can be a good means to end a stalled game.
It just did not work for me often enough to justify the card slots they needed.
Aside from that if you want to have some combos in your Zirilan deck with spending minimal card slots I recommend:
- Worldgorger Dragon: in the late game after fetching a lot of Mountains Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and/or Akoum Hellkite and/or Scourge of Valkas can do some good damage to someone's head.
- Worldgorger Dragon can also justify the inclusion of Jokulhaups and the like (Obliterate, Devastation, etc.). Also Jokulhaups and its brethren can be good on their own if you have one or more mana doublers in play: draw all mana into your mana pool, cast Jokulhaups and after it resolves cast some dragons with the remaining mana.
- Mycosynth Lattice: this one was really hard for me to let go because it enables cute things . With Hellkite Tyrant you can take one player out of the game. Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Vandalblast and Shattering Spree can also do some serious damage with the Lattice (also good option to remove enchantments). A Hellkite Igniter can get huge with the Lattice.
My greates memory with Mycosynth Lattice is the scenario: I had Zirilan and the Lattice in play. Played an overloaded Vandalblast. Two players gone - the third was sitting there with a Sliver Hivelord asking: how are you going to deal with this? Me: fetching Hellkite Tyrant wiht Zirilan and attack!
If you are looking for post-Knollspine Dragon mana, Inner Fire and Mana Geyser will go a long way, doubly so if you are playing any recursion to recast them.
Zirilan is not for you if... you like your deck to function reliably the same way every game.
This is probably another reason I shelved the idea. I was going for a hyper-focused Inner Fire combo approach, with only 8 dragons, and the variance was just too high for my tastes. I do like that the more recent Avaricious Dragon and Dream Pillager support a more stable value-over-time approach to the deck, which is probably stronger overall.
Out of all the save-the-dragons spells/lands I think Sundial of the Infinite, Tel-Jilad Stylus and Conjurer's Closet are the playable ones. The first two because of their low mana cost and last one to trigger our dragons' enter the battlefield abilities over and over again.
In my opinion all the other options demand too many resources (card slots, time, mana) to be effective.
Avaricious Dragon and Dream Pillager definitely became permanent additions to my deck. Whenever I played them they provided small but constant card advantage.
I can't help but notice nobody mentioned the wondrous combination of Zirilan of the Claw + Sneak Attack + Dragon Mask + all the red dragons forever. Just resolve Dragon Mask first.
Maybe I missed a post.
Definitely another way of preserving dragons from Zirilan's exile trigger.
Bonus points for the flavourful Dragon Mask!
Staff of Nin really works for me.
People sometimes forget the ability that it can deal one damage so they block my dragon with a creature that has one more toughness than the dragon's power.
The look on their face is awesome when I ping their creature to death afterwards.
I added the flavour section as promised a while ago.
I am looking forward for your flavour suggestions!
Might take the dive into Zirilian since I just dismantled Feldon and have most of these cards lying around. Any chance at some list from those of you that have been tuning this for a while?
Guys, this type of deck is a flavor home run. Post your lists ASAP kthxbye
Hi there!
I have been playing Zirilan for a long time and have really tuned my list: decklist
I got rid of almost all "save the dragons" spells/lands and am having quite success with this build.
My deck is a multi player list though. Judging from the comments in this thread I think the creator plays Zirilan more in a 1vs1 environment.
For example paying life never worked for me (Treasonous Ogre, Moltensteel Dragon) and the Worldgorger Dragon triggers got messed with too often so I took him out of the deck.
I had not many chances to play the deck a lot recently but I will have to test these changes before I move on.
I got to play Marchesa more often and more confidently.
Although he is dripping with flavour for this deck I have been constantly dissatisfied with Sarkhan.
Both versions have either been doing not enough or were destroyed very soon (I think I have never had more than two activations).
Instead I will test more card draw which I found a bit lacking.
Concerning Basal Sliver: of course I read in your comment in the tribal thread that this Sliver should be especially good but I have two questions: what to do with so much black mana in this deck? And: in all the games I played the deck Marchesa just did not live long enough to give my Slivers +1/+1 counters.
So basically I cannot sacrifice my Slivers and get them back most of the time.
Which brings me to: today I wished I still had Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death in the deck. Many board wipes were cast and though I could recover well by a good amount of card draw many important Slivers (e.g. Syphon Sliver) ended up in the graveyard. The only way to get them back was by using Volrath's Stronghold.
You already proposed Oversold Cemetery and maybe additionally I should try Phyrexian Reclamation?
About Telekinetic Sliver: I always play the deck as an aggro deck. Sure that Sliver's effect is nice but I think I would rather attack with them.
I wanted to include Psionic Sliver in the inital build of the deck and the only reason not to do it was its high cmc. Maybe I should rethink that. It becomes even better with more ways to get Slivers back from the grave.
I read Soulrune's deck and that gave me a good idea of which cards are played by default in a Marchesa deck. Now I am a bit torn: if I play too many non-Slivers in this deck because they are just great with Marchesa then I will lose the synergy with the rest of the Sliver tribe.
Another thing: Torpor Orb is a real powerhouse which I want to keep playing. As a result I would like to use as few creatures with ETB effects as possible - contrary to the default Marchesa build...
I think I will have to play the deck more often to decide what to do.
The mana rocks are a necessary evil I think. Having four mana on turn three is nice not only for playing Marchesa but maybe for playing two Slivers. No? Is it imperative to play Marchesa as soon as possible? Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm are good tips and I should test them.
So, a lot of things to test and try - I think the hardest part will be to decide which cards to take out.
Thanks again man for your explanations! I really appreciate them.
Finally got the fetchlands.
I found that I lacked coloured mana producing lands too often. I know that there are thins like Crosis's Catacombs or Crumbling Necropolis but they are a tempo loss which is really bad here. I generally try to avoid lands that enter the battelfield tapped in this deck. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is mainly in for the triple black costs of Necropotence.
I definitely wanted to have another removal spell and I found out that life is a well-manageable resource in this deck. Chrome Mox's card disadvantage and the lack of another possible cut led to my descision to swap it.
As mentioned in my last post I wanted to remove Vampiric Sliver. For now I replaced it with Toxin Sliver but I still consider this a flex spot to test other Slivers.
After some games I found Magma Sliver too awkward to use because it is most effective if I attack with only one Sliver which is rarely the case. I think another tutor ability in the form of Homing Sliver fits better.
Lord of Tresserhorn was tons of fun to play and it had all the Zombie-related cards you could think of. I really liked this deck. Unfortunately the power level in my meta is very high and I just had no chance against my opponent's decks.
This is why I created Balthor the Defiled. I could pull off some wins with the deck but unfortunately it got so boring after a while. It was basically: get loads of Zombies in your graveyard and when seven mana are available cast Balthor the Defiled and win. So I retired the deck for now.
If budget is a factor for you then play Grimgrin, Corpse-Born for you can get the occasional combo-win. But if you want to experience the true Zombie-feeling I would go for Lord of Tresserhorn.
If you are interested I can send you my old Lord of Tresserhorn list.
In addition to nurse.jason's suggestions (Stranglehold, Price of Glory, War's Toll) I always wanted to try Null Brooch - I am in top deck mode most of the time anyhow.
Perfectly reasonable!
Including combos is nothing bad - they can be a good means to end a stalled game.
It just did not work for me often enough to justify the card slots they needed.
I still run one single combo in my deck: infinite attack steps with Hellkite Charger/Aggravated Assault + Sword of Feast and Famine. The reason as I explained in my Zirilan thread is that all combo pieces are usefull on their own.
Aside from that if you want to have some combos in your Zirilan deck with spending minimal card slots I recommend:
- Worldgorger Dragon: in the late game after fetching a lot of Mountains Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and/or Akoum Hellkite and/or Scourge of Valkas can do some good damage to someone's head.
- Worldgorger Dragon can also justify the inclusion of Jokulhaups and the like (Obliterate, Devastation, etc.). Also Jokulhaups and its brethren can be good on their own if you have one or more mana doublers in play: draw all mana into your mana pool, cast Jokulhaups and after it resolves cast some dragons with the remaining mana.
- Mycosynth Lattice: this one was really hard for me to let go because it enables cute things . With Hellkite Tyrant you can take one player out of the game. Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Vandalblast and Shattering Spree can also do some serious damage with the Lattice (also good option to remove enchantments). A Hellkite Igniter can get huge with the Lattice.
My greates memory with Mycosynth Lattice is the scenario: I had Zirilan and the Lattice in play. Played an overloaded Vandalblast. Two players gone - the third was sitting there with a Sliver Hivelord asking: how are you going to deal with this? Me: fetching Hellkite Tyrant wiht Zirilan and attack!
Let's get the rituals and their ilk together.
Inner Fire
Mana Geyser
Infernal Plunge
Rite of Flame
Desperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Seething Song
After flashing in some dragons with Sneak Attack:
Battle Hymn
If you can pay the life:
Treasonous Ogre
If you can reliably get the initial huge card draw it might work.
Another thing that comes to my mind with all the rituals: Dragonstorm!
Flashy and fun - definitely!
I was also wondering how many Rituals do we have in mono red to make your first option viable?
Out of all the save-the-dragons spells/lands I think Sundial of the Infinite, Tel-Jilad Stylus and Conjurer's Closet are the playable ones. The first two because of their low mana cost and last one to trigger our dragons' enter the battlefield abilities over and over again.
In my opinion all the other options demand too many resources (card slots, time, mana) to be effective.
Avaricious Dragon and Dream Pillager definitely became permanent additions to my deck. Whenever I played them they provided small but constant card advantage.
Definitely another way of preserving dragons from Zirilan's exile trigger.
Bonus points for the flavourful Dragon Mask!
Staff of Nin really works for me.
People sometimes forget the ability that it can deal one damage so they block my dragon with a creature that has one more toughness than the dragon's power.
The look on their face is awesome when I ping their creature to death afterwards.
I added the flavour section as promised a while ago.
I am looking forward for your flavour suggestions!
Hi there!
I have been playing Zirilan for a long time and have really tuned my list: decklist
I got rid of almost all "save the dragons" spells/lands and am having quite success with this build.
My deck is a multi player list though. Judging from the comments in this thread I think the creator plays Zirilan more in a 1vs1 environment.
For example paying life never worked for me (Treasonous Ogre, Moltensteel Dragon) and the Worldgorger Dragon triggers got messed with too often so I took him out of the deck.
But still this is my favourite deck! Go Zirilan!
- Coldsteel Heart
- Star Compass
- Diffusion Sliver
- Arcane Denial
- Counterspell
- Hinder
- Spell Crumple
- Dissipate
The counterspells did go except for Muddle the Mixture because I mainly use it for tutoring.
This is what is now in:
+ Mana Crypt
+ Shapesharer
+ Taurean Mauler
+ Dack's Duplicate
+ Phyrexian Reclamation
+ Oversold Cemetery
+ Unspeakable Symbol
+ Rite of Replication
I had not many chances to play the deck a lot recently but I will have to test these changes before I move on.
I got to play Marchesa more often and more confidently.
Although he is dripping with flavour for this deck I have been constantly dissatisfied with Sarkhan.
Both versions have either been doing not enough or were destroyed very soon (I think I have never had more than two activations).
Instead I will test more card draw which I found a bit lacking.
So the changes are:
- Sarkhan Vol
- Sarkhan the Mad
+ Hunter's Insight
+ Underworld Connections
Why? Because I play these two decks and they are a lot of fun!
Check out my signature for deck lists!
Played the deck again today. It did not win but still was a lot of fun.
Clone effects - oh yeah! Never thought of them and I will definitely try Taurean Mauler, Shapesharer and Dack's Duplicate. Already changed Toxin Sliver for Sakashima the Impostor.
Having more pump Slivers is just awesome!
Blade of Selves and Rite of Replication seem also very good and need to be tested.
Concerning Basal Sliver: of course I read in your comment in the tribal thread that this Sliver should be especially good but I have two questions: what to do with so much black mana in this deck? And: in all the games I played the deck Marchesa just did not live long enough to give my Slivers +1/+1 counters.
So basically I cannot sacrifice my Slivers and get them back most of the time.
Which brings me to: today I wished I still had Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death in the deck. Many board wipes were cast and though I could recover well by a good amount of card draw many important Slivers (e.g. Syphon Sliver) ended up in the graveyard. The only way to get them back was by using Volrath's Stronghold.
You already proposed Oversold Cemetery and maybe additionally I should try Phyrexian Reclamation?
About Telekinetic Sliver: I always play the deck as an aggro deck. Sure that Sliver's effect is nice but I think I would rather attack with them.
I wanted to include Psionic Sliver in the inital build of the deck and the only reason not to do it was its high cmc. Maybe I should rethink that. It becomes even better with more ways to get Slivers back from the grave.
I read Soulrune's deck and that gave me a good idea of which cards are played by default in a Marchesa deck. Now I am a bit torn: if I play too many non-Slivers in this deck because they are just great with Marchesa then I will lose the synergy with the rest of the Sliver tribe.
Another thing: Torpor Orb is a real powerhouse which I want to keep playing. As a result I would like to use as few creatures with ETB effects as possible - contrary to the default Marchesa build...
I think I will have to play the deck more often to decide what to do.
The mana rocks are a necessary evil I think. Having four mana on turn three is nice not only for playing Marchesa but maybe for playing two Slivers. No? Is it imperative to play Marchesa as soon as possible?
Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm are good tips and I should test them.
So, a lot of things to test and try - I think the hardest part will be to decide which cards to take out.
Thanks again man for your explanations! I really appreciate them.
Okay, here is the list:
1 Lord of Tresserhorn
LANDS
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Graven Cairns
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Underground River
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Mana Confluence
1 Command Tower
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Crosis's Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Academy Ruins
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Winding Canyons
1 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sol Ring
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Rooftop Storm
CREATURES
1 Gravecrawler
1 Festering Goblin
1 Shambling Goblin
1 Nightscape Familiar
1 Plaguebearer
1 Withered Wretch
1 Coffin Queen
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Unbreathing Horde
1 Gangrenous Zombies
1 Bone Dancer
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Death Baron
1 Lord of the Undead
1 Zombie Master
1 Diregraf Captain
1 Lich Lord of Unx
1 Fatestitcher
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Undead Warchief
1 Liliana's Reaver
1 Risen Executioner
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Noxious Ghoul
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Thraximundar
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Dreadbore
1 Chaos Warp
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Fire Covenant
1 Crosis's Charm
1 Grave Pact
1 Call to the Grave
1 Dictate of Erebos
TUTORS
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Muddle the Mixture
MISC
1 Torpor Orb
1 Bedlam
1 Berserkers' Onslaught
1 Patriarch's Bidding
1 Living Death
1 Zombie Apocalypse
1 Rise of the Dark Realms
One of the best cards in the deck was Torpor Orb - this smart little artifact can wreck whole decks. There was always a groaning when I played it.
For flavour reasons I ran Unscythe, Killer of Kings for a time. Additional style points...
The strongest effects in the deck were those that brought my Zombie horde back from the grave (Patriarch's Bidding, Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse, Rise of the Dark Realms) and that was what led me to building Balthor the Defiled because he has that effect tugged on him.
I think I got most Zombie-related cards only missing Army of the Damned because tokens cannot come back from the graveyard.
I just noticed that Havengul Lich is not in the list which he should be. He is crazy together with Rooftop Storm...
Made more changes:
Mana base:
- Evolving Wilds
- Terramorphic Expanse
- Myriad Landscape
- Grixis Panorama
- Mutavault
- Winding Canyons
- Swamp
+ Bloodstained Mire
+ Polluted Delta
+ Scalding Tarn
+ City of Brass
+ Mana Confluence
+ Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+ Island
Finally got the fetchlands.
I found that I lacked coloured mana producing lands too often. I know that there are thins like Crosis's Catacombs or Crumbling Necropolis but they are a tempo loss which is really bad here. I generally try to avoid lands that enter the battelfield tapped in this deck.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is mainly in for the triple black costs of Necropotence.
- Chromatic Lantern
+ Sword of the Animist
I think the sword will be much more usefull putting lands directly into play and giving a bit of colour fixing.
- Chrome Mox
+ Fire Covenant
I definitely wanted to have another removal spell and I found out that life is a well-manageable resource in this deck.
Chrome Mox's card disadvantage and the lack of another possible cut led to my descision to swap it.
- Vampiric Sliver
- Magma Sliver
+ Homing Sliver
+ Toxin Sliver
As mentioned in my last post I wanted to remove Vampiric Sliver. For now I replaced it with Toxin Sliver but I still consider this a flex spot to test other Slivers.
After some games I found Magma Sliver too awkward to use because it is most effective if I attack with only one Sliver which is rarely the case. I think another tutor ability in the form of Homing Sliver fits better.
I will soon test this new configuration.
I have played two Zombie tribal decks:
Lord of Tresserhorn and Balthor the Defiled.
Lord of Tresserhorn was tons of fun to play and it had all the Zombie-related cards you could think of. I really liked this deck. Unfortunately the power level in my meta is very high and I just had no chance against my opponent's decks.
This is why I created Balthor the Defiled. I could pull off some wins with the deck but unfortunately it got so boring after a while. It was basically: get loads of Zombies in your graveyard and when seven mana are available cast Balthor the Defiled and win. So I retired the deck for now.
If budget is a factor for you then play Grimgrin, Corpse-Born for you can get the occasional combo-win. But if you want to experience the true Zombie-feeling I would go for Lord of Tresserhorn.
If you are interested I can send you my old Lord of Tresserhorn list.
Generally cards with Tempting Offer: Tempt with Vengeance, Tempt with Discovery, Tempt with Reflections, Tempt with Immortality and Tempt with Glory.