Got time to play against Bant Eldrazi today with Delver's Shadow/Grixis Shadow. Won the game 2-1, after losing the first game.
The deck is awesome. We're using Death's Shadow in a fair way. I have to say that the deck is very hard to play. Sideboarding with this new deck is rough too. You can see that in Overturf's build, his sideboard is basically (mostly) cards that were in his original Delver list. So I assume that G1, against an unknown deck, he plays normally and adjust his game according to what he's facing. G2, if it's a deck that any Delver deck can beat, he takes Shadow/Thoughseize package out and plays with the normal Delver list. The thing about this is I wonder if it is better just to leave DS in no matter what and consider that it's part of our game.
Having Delver, Thoughtseize and Death's Shadow in your starting hand is tough too. I believe the right play should always be Delver T1, no matter what (I might be wrong).
Death's Shadow is an insane top deck too.
Problem I have with this is I just think that it's better off just playing Jund Shadow if you're going to play DS. The deck is much better and consistent. You play this because you love blue, which I do.
i think the merit of having DS in the deck is to have another layer of attack. A huge shadow can force decks that go wide into chump blocking (Ryan mentioned this as well) and a faster clock against ramp and combo decks. Burn was also great according to him (60% win rate). In contrast to Shadow Jund which goes all in to the suicide plan, this deck can still play tempo and grind hard. DS is actually not a new tech for grixis delver, it was discussed in this thread and played as a 3 of in some SB a few years back since the burn matchup is pretty horrible.
Hi, the primer is outdated so forgive me if my concerns we're already answered. I'm interested with the deck as I already own most of the staples (except Misty and Vial) since I play Jund/Abzan and Jeskai/Grixis. I'm a sucker for midrange/control decks especially U, which is why I built my decks even though they share the same bad matchups which are big mana and ramp decks. This decks looks fun to play because Goyfs, Snaps and Cryptics is where I want to be, but the absence of hard removal (Terminate, Path, Push) is concerning. How does the deck fares in the current meta? Unortunately mine have lots of Tron, Eldrazi and even Amulet Titan. Needless to say, I get my ass kicked every now and then but the love for the archetype in general keeps me going.
If Harbinger is truly a flash in the pan as claimed by some people, or was never really good to begin with, what would be the ideal deck to transition into (assuming we want to retain UWx or URx)? Will it be Esper, Grixis or shift into Jeskai Draw-go?
How did it go with 2 Cryptics and 1 Verdict in the main? That is 8 cards with CMC 4 or more which is a bit heavy for 23 lands. How was the matchup against Grixis Control?
I'm not sure if Anger of the Gods is really where you want to be with the main deck currently. The reason I say that is
When I look at the top 8 decks on mtggoldfish here's what I see:
So how many decks is Anger of the Godsreally that good against? 2? maybe 3? While some of these decks do have some small creatures, Tarmogoyf and Eldrazi creatures are everywhere. I think with the way the meta currently is, we should be looking at cards like Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict, maybe even a main deck Elspeth, Sun's Champion to help clean up and win these grindy creature matchups. These cards come in from the sideboard and basically free up space for Geist of Saint Traft which I think we are going to want vs control and combo. I still love Electrolyze as a card and that it keeps the cards flowing, but I'm not sure that card would be very good right now either. Oh, and I think it's probably safe to cut the Vendilion Clique from the main as well.
Appreciate the inputs. I'm replacing Anger with Verdict in the main. With all the ramp decks, I'm also thinking of bringing back Spreading Seas in the SB like Jim Davis' list. Seas is also great against the 3-color midrange/control decks and can be a pseudo-removal for manlands. Why do you think Clique is safe to remove from the main? It's not so good versus CoCo decks but provides tremendous versatility versus combo, as ambush viper, or a faster clock.
I'll experiment with this list on my next FNM. A bit light on graveyard hate with only 1 RIP, so I may add another replacing SS or Dispel if there is a lot of Dredge running around.
I am thinking of bringing at least two copies of Gest of Saint Traft for the mirror and as a quick clock for combo decks (Valakut, Ad Naus, Tron) but I'm not sure what to remove and if two copies is the correct number. Two copies of Stony Silence may be excessive since we already have a good Affinity matchup, but I find it useful against Ad Naus, Lantern and Tron as well. Appreciate any input, thanks!
Sleeved up Jeskai Harbinger for my next FNMs. List is very similar to Jim Davis. I could use some help with further tuning the deck. My meta has Tron, Dredge, Infect, Bant Eldrazi, BW Tokens, Esper Thopter, Affinity, Ad Naus, and Jund/Junk. I'm thinking of adding some St Trafts in the sideboard for a faster clock against ramp and combo decks. Also, how about some Runed Halos for Valakuts and Ad Nauseum?
In Corey's list, any thoughts on modifying the landbase into 3 Spirebluff Canal replacing one island and Sulfur Falls to lessen us shocking ourselves? Corey said he felt that the single Canal should be replaced by Bloodstained Mire or a Drowned Catacombs.
Probably worth experimenting with depending on your matchups. Personally, I'd be very leery of possibly speed-bumping myself short of 4 or 5 mana. That represents things like Cryptic Command, Snap-Terminate, Snap-K-Command, Snap-Squall, getting in with Tar Pit, etc.
Good points, thanks! I don't have Canals yet, and while it is very good early game, taplands can be really constricting later on when the deck is really mana-hungry with snap-cryptic/kcommand. When I play Jund with 7-8 taplands (4 Cleaves, 4 Manlands), it really does slow you down but it doesn't matter most of the time since with Jund, you are either tapping out on your turn or already topdecking.
In Corey's list, any thoughts on modifying the landbase into 3 Spirebluff Canal replacing one island and Sulfur Falls to lessen us shocking ourselves? Corey said he felt that the single Canal should be replaced by Bloodstained Mire or a Drowned Catacombs.
I prefer the Corey version of Grixis right now. The downside with playing discards is that Grixis lacks a quick beater like Goyf. Sure, Tasigur or Angler can comedown early but not nearly on the same consistency as any BGx decks. Esper and Mardu shards suffers the same setback. AV allows Grixis to trade 1 for 1 and get ahead once it resolves. By then Cryptic/Kolaghan-Snapcaster is online to turn the corner. With Fatal Push, I believe BUG has become the better shell now for Blue Jund. Postboard, they can even bring counters to shore up matches against combo decks.
The Snap-Kcommand/Cryptic engine is now the real allure of playing Grixis Control. If there is a shift into a slower meta, Grixis with Discards and JVP can be better positioned.
I play Jund/Abzan and Jeskai/Grixis but the printing of Fatal Push solves the efficient 1CMC removal that BUG/Sultai sorely needs. For those with experience piloting the deck, has anyone tried playing a more controlling version with permission spells and card draw/filtering rather than the midrangey with discards? I'm thinking of throwing good stuffs together into something like this:
This is just a rough draft. Lily seems lackluster without discards and is a nombo when you want to hold counterspells. 2 is probably the right number. A playset of Snaps feels excessive too and underwhelming without bolts. If I go the tempo route with Delver, Temur and Grixis is obviously superior.
Would confidant work in control?
Do you want them to know your upcoming counterspells?
Thanks for pointing that out, that was a big oversight. I guess Flayers then in a reactive shell. Reason I favor a more reactive form with permissionns and cantrips is because I feel that having discards makes the deck a weaker version of Grixis or Junk. They are lighter on threats but Tasigur can be a pseudo Goyf and they can grind harder due to the Snap-Kommand engine. Cryptic Command is also amazing late game. Although the Burn matchup is still not favorable, Collective Brutality and Spirebluffs helped improve it.
On the otherside, Abzan has also gotten a lot of tools as well with Blooming Marsh and Fatal Push. The manabase is not clunky anymore and Push now acts as a black bolt. Lingering Souls is still a total grindfest.
An efficient hard counter would greatly improve the BUG shell. Im hoping there would be a UU Counterspell Revolt. Something similar to Fatal Push. These are just my conjectures and theories as I have not played the deck long enough. I am confident though that we will come up with something solid for this shard.
I play Jund/Abzan and Jeskai/Grixis but the printing of Fatal Push solves the efficient 1CMC removal that BUG/Sultai sorely needs. For those with experience piloting the deck, has anyone tried playing a more controlling version with permission spells and card draw/filtering rather than the midrangey with discards? I'm thinking of throwing good stuffs together into something like this:
This is just a rough draft. Lily seems lackluster without discards and is a nombo when you want to hold counterspells. 2 is probably the right number. A playset of Snaps feels excessive too and underwhelming without bolts. If I go the tempo route with Delver, Temur and Grixis is obviously superior.
Thanks everyone! Buying Tarns is my biggest apprehension getting into URx, I am only getting it cheap (around 55 ea) from a fried that is why I'm biting the bullet. I refrain from buying Zen fetches to minimize my losses when it gets reprinted which we all know is only a matter of time. Thanks again and hoping this deck is here to stay!
I'll experiment with this list on my next FNM. A bit light on graveyard hate with only 1 RIP, so I may add another replacing SS or Dispel if there is a lot of Dredge running around.
2x Negate
1x Dispel
2x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Spreading Seas
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Wear // Tear
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Elspeth Sun's Champion
1x Izzet Staticaster
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
3x Spirebluff Canal
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Steam Vents
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
6 Creatures
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
3x Remand
3x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
1x Anger of the Gods
4x Nahiri, The Harbinger
15 Sideboard
2x Negate
1x Dispel
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Wear // Tear
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Vendillion Clique
I am thinking of bringing at least two copies of Gest of Saint Traft for the mirror and as a quick clock for combo decks (Valakut, Ad Naus, Tron) but I'm not sure what to remove and if two copies is the correct number. Two copies of Stony Silence may be excessive since we already have a good Affinity matchup, but I find it useful against Ad Naus, Lantern and Tron as well. Appreciate any input, thanks!
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
3x Celestial Colonnade
3x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
6 Creatures
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4x Nahiri, The Harbinger
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Serum Visions
1x Timely Reinforcements
19 Instants
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
15 Sideboard
1x Wear // Tear
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Good points, thanks! I don't have Canals yet, and while it is very good early game, taplands can be really constricting later on when the deck is really mana-hungry with snap-cryptic/kcommand. When I play Jund with 7-8 taplands (4 Cleaves, 4 Manlands), it really does slow you down but it doesn't matter most of the time since with Jund, you are either tapping out on your turn or already topdecking.
The Snap-Kcommand/Cryptic engine is now the real allure of playing Grixis Control. If there is a shift into a slower meta, Grixis with Discards and JVP can be better positioned.
Thanks for pointing that out, that was a big oversight. I guess Flayers then in a reactive shell. Reason I favor a more reactive form with permissionns and cantrips is because I feel that having discards makes the deck a weaker version of Grixis or Junk. They are lighter on threats but Tasigur can be a pseudo Goyf and they can grind harder due to the Snap-Kommand engine. Cryptic Command is also amazing late game. Although the Burn matchup is still not favorable, Collective Brutality and Spirebluffs helped improve it.
On the otherside, Abzan has also gotten a lot of tools as well with Blooming Marsh and Fatal Push. The manabase is not clunky anymore and Push now acts as a black bolt. Lingering Souls is still a total grindfest.
An efficient hard counter would greatly improve the BUG shell. Im hoping there would be a UU Counterspell Revolt. Something similar to Fatal Push. These are just my conjectures and theories as I have not played the deck long enough. I am confident though that we will come up with something solid for this shard.
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Dark Confidant
1x Vendillion Clique
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Fatal Push
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Spell Snare
2x Mana Leak
2x Remand
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Polluted Delta
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
2x Watery Grave
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest
2x Blooming Marsh
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tarpit
1x Ghostquarter
This is just a rough draft. Lily seems lackluster without discards and is a nombo when you want to hold counterspells. 2 is probably the right number. A playset of Snaps feels excessive too and underwhelming without bolts. If I go the tempo route with Delver, Temur and Grixis is obviously superior.