he had a series of them... I only watched Version 1.. where he won games only because of deathrite a lot of the time... I believe this version is junk but it was BG only originally.
Deathrite allows you to use the lands you dump in the grave for mana and take the creature from salvage and still ramp.
Thanks. I knew of Conley Woods deck, he wrote an article on it, but I never watched the videos.
After watching :
I'm definitely sold on Jarad. Once you have a few fatties (nemesis, howler, or a buffed troll), hes a game ender right there. He can come back from the GY at any time, and then you sac your dudes for lethal. I'm getting a playset ASAP.
Also, deadbridge chant to the sideboard asap. Its another game winner.
after watching the videos, I see how deathrite shaman is good. Its like a mini planeswalker, 3 abilities in one card. Get mana, deal damage, gain life. All are useful. The card IS pricey, tho, so if I can get this deck to work without it, I'd be happy
To be fair, this sounds more like a personal pet peeve and not something that would bother the average player so much.
Secondly, if a person's deck teching bothers you this much, you ought to be saying something to them (rather than *****ing on a forum).
Often, players get so much joy from these little combos/interactions that they feel compelled to share. And it tends to be positively reinforced by other players. Johnny/Melvin mentalities and whatnot.
That said, there's nothing wrong with politely trying to steer the conversation in a different direction, or simply telling them (nicely) that you're not interested.
It may be a pet peeve, but seriously, in what scenario is it acceptable to start a 15 minute monologue with a total stranger? Be it MTG or any other subject, when you meet someone for the first time, I think you'd want to have an actual conversation. However most people I met that play MTG have this attitude of only talking about their cards, their deck, their combo. Its like they only want to talk about themselve and just want to give every new player a complete lecture.
At this point, there's no steering the conversation. It isn't a conversation if the dialogue is only one way. Its like listening to a broken record.
Again, what makes me sad is that the majority of MTG players that I met are like that. I'd love to meet new players to play with, but frankly its HARD to find someone that can have a normal conversation.
For me, players that i've met at my LGS all have a blatant lack of social skills. Add body odor, or stupid stuff like wearing a long-coat to play indoor ( you know, matrix style? That actually happened)
For me, the worst is when someone ONLY talks about Magic, and wont shut up. When I play with friends, we'll chat about random stuff while we play. Thats cool. I played with this guy the other day, he wouldnt shut up about his cards and this AWESOME interaction, and this SWEEEET combo, etc etc. Newsflash : I dont care. I dont even understand half the cards you are mentioning. I also wont understand even if you explain it, I need to read to understand something.
I remember the first time I went to my LGS. I was looking for some cards and the LGS was out. So this guy got up and told me he had some, and was willing to sell them. At that moment, I genuinely thought "wow, this LGS is nice. Its great. I love this place. Its only my first time here but this guy is so helpful!" but that quickly faded, when he decided I was his new bestfriend for the day. So, he decided to give me a speech on the interaction of pretty much all his decks. "this card does this, its strong, dont you think?" "Wait till you see the next step, I also have THIS CARD!!! Amazing, right?" "BUT WAIT, THERES MORE!!11one" Non stop. For a good 15 minutes. At that point I was still browsing cards, annoyed, and only replied in "hm hm", trying to be polite.
Seriously, what the hell? Thats not how you make friends. After that incident, I left and decided that I'd avoid those guys like the plague.
Thanks for the replies! I don't really need this deck to win the pro-tour, but I definitely want to improve it.
With what you guys said about "playing to your strengths" (with a budget deck), it'd be best to stick with a strategy that plans to win the game relatively fast. So, we can rule out the [CARD]read the bones
[/CARD] idea.
I played some games yesterday, and right now the deck feels pretty cool, albeit "gimicky". Everything hinges on commune with the god / Grisly salvage. IF I get lucky, then I can get a very early nemesis of mortal, or a fat nighthowler. In one game I bestowed a nighthowler on the troll (I had a very fat GY because of 2 "lucky" grisly salvages that i did previously), and it became a very huge threat, very quickly, winning me the game.
A card that did better than expected was Reaper of the wilds. Scry is great. Hexproof is great. And deathtouch is nice too. Theres so much value in this creature! I underestimated it, but now I really like that card.
On the other hand, I had high hopes in deadbridge goliath, but I was a bit disappointed. 4 mana for a 5/5 is fine ( nemesis of mortals is still cheaper most of the time, for same P/T), but I found that I never had enough mana for scavenging. Thats 6 mana for scavenge, which gives +5/+5. Again it seemed easier to get nemesis of mortals monstrous instead, for the same +5/+5.
Whip of erebos : pretty cool but does it really help with the midrange strategy? Also, exiling stuff away from my GY weakens my nighthowler and nemesis
I'm still thinking about deathrite shaman. Its a great card, thats for sure, but does he really fit in the deck? I'm looking to summon big dudes fast, to end the game right there. I think he'd be better in long games, where the 2 damages can really "add up" to something significant. I have the budget for it, but I dont want to "force" it into my deck just because I can.
December / christmas is always super busy at work, so I didnt have much time for magic. Now that its over, I finally assembled the deck.
The good news is that with all that overtime I clocked at work, I decided I could budget 150$ more into this deck.
First thing I'm doing is replacing the slivers with sylvan caryatid, and also adding overgrown tomb. This should give me a solid mana-base to work on.
Now, I could jam in "money cards" like deathrite shaman but frankly I'm not sure it would really fit in.
Someone suggested drown in filth, to replace putrefy / doomblade. I kinda like the idea, but it sounds very random to me. I'll have to try it, what do you guys think?
I'm also thinking about jarad (seems he would synergise very well with the deck. I think its a no-brainer) or trying to add card draws ( 1-2 read the bones ? it would certainly fuel the troll even more)
This is a deck I plan on using soon.. (still need some cards but all in all it's already built)
please provide feedback. Thank you
Essentially, I build up troops using Phalanx Leader via Hidden Strings lock a few creatures on the way with Wavecrash Triton
Transfer accumulated +1/+1 counters to either save a dying creature or if up for destruction, salvage the counters
And end up with a scary looking Fabled Hero
any thoughts on what to add/remove/improve?
I would really appreciate feedback
In my opinion you need a more reliable way for your creatures to deal damage to players. In theory someone could chump block and prevent your hidden string from proccing.
How is the wavecrash triton doing, in that regard? Is he doing a good job of "clearing the way" for your other dudes? If not, you might need more heroic enablers (I would personally think about removing the keyrune, first). OR, look into cards like aqueous form // aerial maneuver
Could run a couple removal spells. Two Detention Spheres by chance? Swift Justice is also another cheap single-target trigger.
If you feel like you're wasting spells, or want longer lasting effects, you could run Eidolons and EtherEal Armors or Auras in general. Detention Spheres would add removal/boost Ethereal as well. I would advise not going full aura and keep some tricky instants.
Good idea. I'm definitely getting 2 detention spheres. Its probly going to be
-4 Dauntless onslaught
+2 Detention spheres
+2 Aerial maneuver (good synergy with hidden strings, IMO. Or maybe just add +1 aqueous form and +1 hidden strings.)
I dont really feel like I'm wasting spells. I usually play very defensively, and hold all instants almost exclusively to respond to removal / incoming damage. Feels great to negate a card AND get a +1/+1.
Bioshift could work. if you lose a body the counters on that body is usually the important bit and saving them helps maintaining pressure alot. You can also use it to pump the critter beeing targeted with shocks/pit fight-esque things etc.
And you get to move around the counters from any heroic triggers the card might trip.
Thats interesting. I could see it used in a deck thats more aggressive.
Interesting. Its not something I had noticed, but now that you mention it...Dauntless onslaught is certainly the card in my deck that sees the less play. It usually sits in my hand for 3/4 of the game, because there's always something better, or I need to keep mana for Mizzium skin / Gods willing. I'll try to figure something out. Either take it out (for more hidden strings / ordeals) or replace it ( battlewise valor or aerial maneuver)
About the hopeful eidolon / ethereal armor thing... I like it, but... i dont know what else I'd remove to include it in my deck.
This is very "defensive" and you have lots of instants to protect your creatures against direct damage // spot removal. I feel like the weakness of heroic is that if you "spend" a lot of card to give +1/+1 counters to something, then you are kinda screwed if the opponent kills it (or return to your hand, etc).
So, the goal is to slowly get creatures that are bigger and bigger (ajani, hidden strings, etc) while keeping them alive with gods willing / mizzium skin / triton tactics. Eventually you can just overwhelm your opponent.
The idea of "and sits there useless for the rest of the game" is an incorrect notion except in a deck that could have searched for them. A card that gets ditched by grisly salvage or commune should not be viewed as a useless or lost card but rather one that you never would have drawn anyway. It is under the same logic that getting hit by tome scour is nothing like losing 5 permanents or losing 5 cards in hand. In fact, the cards are in the graveyard because you wanted them to be there. Sometimes cards that you'd have rather drawn will go to the graveyard but that's part of life. It isn't always perfect. Even if it was the next card, you had no way to know (barring a scry case but then you wouldn't have done it, would you?)
I heavily, heavily advise against slitherhead. The single counter is so little while costing you power on nighthowler, the count for nemesis and being a not so amazing card on the board. If you want some spare options, try dreg mangler.
I understand what you are saying, maybe my wording wasn't perfect. What I meant is : if I know that I'm going to be throwing a bunch of stuff directly to the GY, shouldn't I try to include cards that at least provide *something* while in there (on top of nighthowler / nemesis). Deadbridge goliath comes to mind. Hes pretty cool.
But you are probably right on the slitherhead. +1/+1 is very little. Decisions, decisions. What about removing it completely? I think I'd see better results with +1 whip, +1 nighthowler, +1 sliver.
Its fun, and getting a nemesis out on T3 is pretty cool. However.. that doesn't happen very often. Other than that, i dont think the deck is really strong.
I think the main problem is that lots of cards that get discarded by commune / grisly salvage just go straight to the GY, and sit there useless for the rest of the game.
So, first thing would be to ditch bow of nylea in favor of whip of erebos. If stuff like a reaper gets discarded (sometimes a grisly salvage can reveal 2, and you can only keep one...), then at least I get to use it for one turn.
Other than that, I think that having more cards with scavenge (thanks for the slitherhead suggestion earlier) would make grisly/commune better options. Its definitely going to replace the wasteland viper.
I'd buy Abrupt Decays since you're midrange anyway but that's just me. The tombs are more likely to retain value but IMO it's a little too early to think about rotation :))
Could you explain why abrupt decay would be better for "midrange?"
Yeah it cannot be countered... but I think putrefy is actually much better since it can deal with any creature (and not only 3cmc)
I think i'll do that, 3 reapers and 2 nighthowlers.
I realize this is the budget forum, and I didnt state a budget in my OP. Buying this deck would be ~30$ish (I have a few cards already), so I guess I'd be willing to spend ~20$ more.
For that price I could get 2 overgrown tomb (to prevent mana screw up even more. Or are they even needed? Especially since I'll have the slivers to provide mana of any color), or exchange the howlers for 2 satyrs. I kinda like the howlers, seems like they could really pack a punch in the "late-game".
Thanks everyone for all the help, this is really appreciated
I think that more removal is actually not so good in the deck since you're digging with commune and salvage. The higher your creature density, the higher chance you'll be able to whip out a turn 3 nemesis or whatever. It gives you more to work with. If you wanted more removal, I'd think the way to do it would actually be changing the split of commune and grisly salvage to 3/3 and cut something for an extra bow. There's more than one way to achieve removal. One is to kill it directly. Another is to force them to block unfavorably. But the reapers also let you dig. If you're just not wanting to spend the 2 dollars per reaper, then take them out and put in a bow and a creature of some sort.
The deck is pretty cheap right now, so I really dont mind the cost of the reapers. They just strike me as "out of place" since they dont interact with the graveyard (no scavenge, and I dont think I would discard it either). But I understand your point about creature density.
That gives you 27 creatures, 6 spells to pitch cards to the graveyard instead of 4, and allows you to run 22 lands instead of 24. The 3 extra mana dorks and the fact that grisly salvage can grab a land help you get more creatures in grave while helping you avoid getting mana screwed. There's admittedly a little less removal and tech but it'll get you for fatties a lot faster in greater quantities.
Wow. Thanks a lot. I think this looks really better than what I had originally. I like the night howlers, they fit right in!
How about exchanging the 2 reapers for more removal?
Thanks. I knew of Conley Woods deck, he wrote an article on it, but I never watched the videos.
After watching :
I'm definitely sold on Jarad. Once you have a few fatties (nemesis, howler, or a buffed troll), hes a game ender right there. He can come back from the GY at any time, and then you sac your dudes for lethal. I'm getting a playset ASAP.
Do you guys think I should remove reaper of the wilds or deadbridge goliath, to make room? I'm leaning toward removing the goliath.
Also, deadbridge chant to the sideboard asap. Its another game winner.
after watching the videos, I see how deathrite shaman is good. Its like a mini planeswalker, 3 abilities in one card. Get mana, deal damage, gain life. All are useful. The card IS pricey, tho, so if I can get this deck to work without it, I'd be happy
edit : heres how it looks right now
4x Deadbridge Goliath
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Sylvan caryatid
4x Nemesis of Mortals
3x Nighthowler
3x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Grisly Salvage
2x Putrefy
3x Commune with the Gods
11x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
7x Swamp
It may be a pet peeve, but seriously, in what scenario is it acceptable to start a 15 minute monologue with a total stranger? Be it MTG or any other subject, when you meet someone for the first time, I think you'd want to have an actual conversation. However most people I met that play MTG have this attitude of only talking about their cards, their deck, their combo. Its like they only want to talk about themselve and just want to give every new player a complete lecture.
At this point, there's no steering the conversation. It isn't a conversation if the dialogue is only one way. Its like listening to a broken record.
Again, what makes me sad is that the majority of MTG players that I met are like that. I'd love to meet new players to play with, but frankly its HARD to find someone that can have a normal conversation.
For me, players that i've met at my LGS all have a blatant lack of social skills. Add body odor, or stupid stuff like wearing a long-coat to play indoor ( you know, matrix style? That actually happened)
For me, the worst is when someone ONLY talks about Magic, and wont shut up. When I play with friends, we'll chat about random stuff while we play. Thats cool. I played with this guy the other day, he wouldnt shut up about his cards and this AWESOME interaction, and this SWEEEET combo, etc etc. Newsflash : I dont care. I dont even understand half the cards you are mentioning. I also wont understand even if you explain it, I need to read to understand something.
I remember the first time I went to my LGS. I was looking for some cards and the LGS was out. So this guy got up and told me he had some, and was willing to sell them. At that moment, I genuinely thought "wow, this LGS is nice. Its great. I love this place. Its only my first time here but this guy is so helpful!" but that quickly faded, when he decided I was his new bestfriend for the day. So, he decided to give me a speech on the interaction of pretty much all his decks. "this card does this, its strong, dont you think?" "Wait till you see the next step, I also have THIS CARD!!! Amazing, right?" "BUT WAIT, THERES MORE!!11one" Non stop. For a good 15 minutes. At that point I was still browsing cards, annoyed, and only replied in "hm hm", trying to be polite.
Seriously, what the hell? Thats not how you make friends. After that incident, I left and decided that I'd avoid those guys like the plague.
With what you guys said about "playing to your strengths" (with a budget deck), it'd be best to stick with a strategy that plans to win the game relatively fast. So, we can rule out the [CARD]read the bones
[/CARD] idea.
I played some games yesterday, and right now the deck feels pretty cool, albeit "gimicky". Everything hinges on commune with the god / Grisly salvage. IF I get lucky, then I can get a very early nemesis of mortal, or a fat nighthowler. In one game I bestowed a nighthowler on the troll (I had a very fat GY because of 2 "lucky" grisly salvages that i did previously), and it became a very huge threat, very quickly, winning me the game.
A card that did better than expected was Reaper of the wilds. Scry is great. Hexproof is great. And deathtouch is nice too. Theres so much value in this creature! I underestimated it, but now I really like that card.
On the other hand, I had high hopes in deadbridge goliath, but I was a bit disappointed. 4 mana for a 5/5 is fine ( nemesis of mortals is still cheaper most of the time, for same P/T), but I found that I never had enough mana for scavenging. Thats 6 mana for scavenge, which gives +5/+5. Again it seemed easier to get nemesis of mortals monstrous instead, for the same +5/+5.
Whip of erebos : pretty cool but does it really help with the midrange strategy? Also, exiling stuff away from my GY weakens my nighthowler and nemesis
So, with that in mind
Jarad, golgari lich lord could really replace deadbridge goliath. I'm thinking about it
Golgari charm is going in the sideboard, for now.
I'm still thinking about deathrite shaman. Its a great card, thats for sure, but does he really fit in the deck? I'm looking to summon big dudes fast, to end the game right there. I think he'd be better in long games, where the 2 damages can really "add up" to something significant. I have the budget for it, but I dont want to "force" it into my deck just because I can.
Again, thanks for the replies!
December / christmas is always super busy at work, so I didnt have much time for magic. Now that its over, I finally assembled the deck.
The good news is that with all that overtime I clocked at work, I decided I could budget 150$ more into this deck.
First thing I'm doing is replacing the slivers with sylvan caryatid, and also adding overgrown tomb. This should give me a solid mana-base to work on.
Now, I could jam in "money cards" like deathrite shaman but frankly I'm not sure it would really fit in.
Someone suggested drown in filth, to replace putrefy / doomblade. I kinda like the idea, but it sounds very random to me. I'll have to try it, what do you guys think?
I'm also thinking about jarad (seems he would synergise very well with the deck. I think its a no-brainer) or trying to add card draws ( 1-2 read the bones ? it would certainly fuel the troll even more)
In my opinion you need a more reliable way for your creatures to deal damage to players. In theory someone could chump block and prevent your hidden string from proccing.
How is the wavecrash triton doing, in that regard? Is he doing a good job of "clearing the way" for your other dudes? If not, you might need more heroic enablers (I would personally think about removing the keyrune, first). OR, look into cards like aqueous form // aerial maneuver
Good idea. I'm definitely getting 2 detention spheres. Its probly going to be
-4 Dauntless onslaught
+2 Detention spheres
+2 Aerial maneuver (good synergy with hidden strings, IMO. Or maybe just add +1 aqueous form and +1 hidden strings.)
I dont really feel like I'm wasting spells. I usually play very defensively, and hold all instants almost exclusively to respond to removal / incoming damage. Feels great to negate a card AND get a +1/+1.
Thats interesting. I could see it used in a deck thats more aggressive.
About the hopeful eidolon / ethereal armor thing... I like it, but... i dont know what else I'd remove to include it in my deck.
3x Battlewise Hoplite
4x Fabled Hero
4x Favored Hoplite
4x Phalanx Leader
2x Triton Fortune Hunter
2x Hidden Strings
Instant (16)
4x Dauntless Onslaught
4x Gods Willing
4x Mizzium Skin
4x Triton Tactics
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Enchantment (4)
2x Aqueous Form
2x Ordeal of Thassa
Land (20)
4x Azorius Guildgate
7x Island
9x Plains
This is very "defensive" and you have lots of instants to protect your creatures against direct damage // spot removal. I feel like the weakness of heroic is that if you "spend" a lot of card to give +1/+1 counters to something, then you are kinda screwed if the opponent kills it (or return to your hand, etc).
So, the goal is to slowly get creatures that are bigger and bigger (ajani, hidden strings, etc) while keeping them alive with gods willing / mizzium skin / triton tactics. Eventually you can just overwhelm your opponent.
Suggestions?
I understand what you are saying, maybe my wording wasn't perfect. What I meant is : if I know that I'm going to be throwing a bunch of stuff directly to the GY, shouldn't I try to include cards that at least provide *something* while in there (on top of nighthowler / nemesis). Deadbridge goliath comes to mind. Hes pretty cool.
But you are probably right on the slitherhead. +1/+1 is very little. Decisions, decisions. What about removing it completely? I think I'd see better results with +1 whip, +1 nighthowler, +1 sliver.
Its fun, and getting a nemesis out on T3 is pretty cool. However.. that doesn't happen very often. Other than that, i dont think the deck is really strong.
I think the main problem is that lots of cards that get discarded by commune / grisly salvage just go straight to the GY, and sit there useless for the rest of the game.
So, first thing would be to ditch bow of nylea in favor of whip of erebos. If stuff like a reaper gets discarded (sometimes a grisly salvage can reveal 2, and you can only keep one...), then at least I get to use it for one turn.
Other than that, I think that having more cards with scavenge (thanks for the slitherhead suggestion earlier) would make grisly/commune better options. Its definitely going to replace the wasteland viper.
4x Deadbridge Goliath
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Lotleth Troll
3x Manaweft Sliver
4x Nemesis of Mortals
2x Nighthowler
3x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Slitherhead
4x Grisly Salvage
2x Putrefy
2x Commune with the Gods
10x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
8x Swamp
Could you explain why abrupt decay would be better for "midrange?"
Yeah it cannot be countered... but I think putrefy is actually much better since it can deal with any creature (and not only 3cmc)
I realize this is the budget forum, and I didnt state a budget in my OP. Buying this deck would be ~30$ish (I have a few cards already), so I guess I'd be willing to spend ~20$ more.
For that price I could get 2 overgrown tomb (to prevent mana screw up even more. Or are they even needed? Especially since I'll have the slivers to provide mana of any color), or exchange the howlers for 2 satyrs. I kinda like the howlers, seems like they could really pack a punch in the "late-game".
Thanks everyone for all the help, this is really appreciated
The deck is pretty cheap right now, so I really dont mind the cost of the reapers. They just strike me as "out of place" since they dont interact with the graveyard (no scavenge, and I dont think I would discard it either). But I understand your point about creature density.
It makes sense!
Wow. Thanks a lot. I think this looks really better than what I had originally. I like the night howlers, they fit right in!
How about exchanging the 2 reapers for more removal?