....So unless I'm missing something, we now have access to unconditional black removal that triggers off of our fetchlands and cantrips. This is a pretty big power spike for us. I like this.
Thoughts?
Fatal push is amazing. It is huge for us. It hits manlands and misses our smashers! I will probably run 4 path's and 2 of these main deck. It will help us out against aggro decks.
I've been silently lurking this thread for a while since I'm building BW Processors as a modern side project. Thanks for your insights btw!
What do you think about the Mardu Eldrazi deck from Corbin Hosler?
It basically trades Lingering souls with Kolaghan's command. Of course, it is almost a 4 color deck now... I think, he started from the BR version and added white for Eldrazi Displacer.
It is a very interesting deck and I enjoyed watching the videos a few days ago. However, adding red really strains the mana base but you do get one of the ideal sweepers we need (3 damage for 3 mana anger of the gods), bolt, and kolaghan's command. Those three cards are the most compelling reasons to splash red. After looking at this deck and evaluating the 2-drop slot for us, I think that we should just cut our 2-drop creatures entirely in favor of Liliana, the last hope (this card has everything we need and is a good top-deck in the late game if we are careful with our relics), Eldrazi displacer (this card has proven to be amazing and very useful in a lot of situations), and additional kill spells.
Well I've been getting stomped lately by a lot of linear fast aggro strategies, feeling like the deck is not so well positioned right now (like midrange in general). I have a couple slots in the side for Dredge but there is none at my LGS so I will probably up the removal count. I have also been considering dropping the discard for removal instead.
1-3 the last two events I attended, with my sole win last night being a bye. Ugh. Drawing a TON of one-land hands too, for some reason.
Not so sure Warping Wail is too great against Blood Moon, since it only does what we want it to if we have 1C open when they cast the Moon, and then it only buys us one creature. Personally I'd far rather get a Wastes off GQ or Path in such a case. Though of course Wail has other uses that make it attractive as a toolbox choice.
Yeah fast aggro is a HUGE problem and I have been trying to deal with it for a long time. When I play against zoo there are some hands that I just cannot beat. If I make it to turn 4, however, I usually win the game. The best cards that I have found are iok, path, and blessed alliance. Boros charm is the main reason that I run languish over damnation. I'm glad that you kicked butt in the GPT! I placed 3rd in a local GPT with a similar number of players.
LURKER HERE - QUESTIONS:
1: How well does the incursion of Ghost Quarters help in the bad MU's of Tron, Valakut, and co?
2: How often do you find opponents failing to find when you Path or Quarter?
3: If there is a reliance on Qhost Quarters in those Matchups, why not Grim Discovery?
4: Across the varied builds here, what would each of you consider being the 'crux card' of the deck? What card wins you the swing matchups and why?
5: With the 'rise' of Infect and Burn, do you think this deck is well positioned in the Meta?
Still vulturing around this build, I really adore it and I think it can go places.
Concerning the stereotypically bad matchups, I feel like Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter could really help demolish in tandem with both Path and Quarter, and I feel like most of their win-cons are reliant on some form of tutoring.
6: Why then aren't these cards auto-adds?
GLORY TO YOU
Welcome! Here are some answers to your questions:
1. They don't. Tron is very resilient around loosing 1 land, that we have to get somewhat lucky to have our ghost quarters slow them down more than 1 turn. Scapeshift it has hardly any effect. Any scapeshift player worth their salt will fetch 6 mountains to make sure that valakut will still kill us if we ghost quarter a mountain. These matchups are so horrible for us, that I don't dedicate much sideboard hate because I would have to dedicate so many cards that my other matchup percentages would suffer.
2. Totally depends on the deck. The majority of modern decks run 3ish basics but there are decks that do not run any (such as the death shadows deck).
3. Grim Discovery is interesting, but crucible of worlds is just better if you want to ghost quarter-lock them.
4. The crux cards are: thought-knot seer, path of exile, relic of progenitus, reality smasher, lingering souls, and wasteland strangler. I am always on the fence of just cutting my relics to go straight midrange, but relics are currently very well positioned.
5. Even though we have great cards against infect the deck is so good it is annoying. I have around a 30% win rate against infect but the matchups are always really close. A quick summary of my previous four games against infect I: lost on turn 3 twice, lost on turn 4 after using thoughtseize and a path, lost on turn 6 after they top-deck a become immense where I was going to win the next turn.
6. If you want to add these cards, I would suggest just going eldrazi and taxes. They have a much better tron matchup. Every deck has their good and bad matchups. I like to run lingering souls and make jund players cry, which I why I play this deck.
It is not surprising to see the new liliana in the deck. It was talked about a few pages ago starting here but nobody has reported on it. I think that it is an amazing fit for our deck but I am waiting until it gets much cheaper to pick a few up.
The more surprising thing, to me, is running 3x blight herder and ZERO discard! I have always been hesitant to cut discard from this deck, but maybe I should give it a try.
What surprises me is the amount of double black on 3 cards in the maindeck with that manabase, as well as sculler with that manabase. It seems way lighter on B/W lands than previous sculler versions I've seen. The discard maybe makes sense when you factor in T2 sculler taking cards away from the opponent. I'm down to 3 discard maindeck myself (with no scullers). It is strange to see 6 5-drops, haven't had many lists with that high of a curve for months now.
I can understand the fulminator in the main, I've felt for a while that my weakest matchups are to decks running tron lands, eldrazi temple, and valakut. Also it can be re-cast through bringing it out of the yard with Lili, which would shut down tron quite a bit. Also 2x thoughtseize in the side rather than main is an interesting take.
What I don't get is the two caverns when running sculler and fulminator, which it can't make uncounterable, in a deck that is stressed for B/W lands. And lastly, no ratchet bomb, EE, or other sweepers before T4 in the side. Is the high curve and lack of sweeper indicative of the meta this deck was played in? Perhaps this deck did well because the tournament had few aggro decks and lots of midrange; I can see this build excelling in that meta.
Yeah, I was a bit confused by the mana also. Fetid heath and urborg help a lot, but you still need about 19 B or W sources to make it work. The cavern of souls seems really odd to me with the liliana in the main. However, the fuliminator mage + liliana looks like it makes up for the lack of ghost quarters. I agree that the meta that this deck played against was in was probably aggro-light.
2x thoughtseize in the side sounds more like a vintage (or legacy) sideboard and isn't too odd. I sometimes have additional discard spells in my side if I know I'll be playing against tron or control.
Here is a recent list that "top 8"-ed a small event - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/519698
Its interesting to see a Fulminator and 2x new Liliana in the maindeck.
It is not surprising to see the new liliana in the deck. It was talked about a few pages ago starting here but nobody has reported on it. I think that it is an amazing fit for our deck but I am waiting until it gets much cheaper to pick a few up.
The more surprising thing, to me, is running 3x blight herder and ZERO discard! I have always been hesitant to cut discard from this deck, but maybe I should give it a try.
Hey! I'm a long time lurker on this thread, as i'm building the deck on paper and soon will start my takes on local tournaments. Proxying it right now playing with friends and the deck is awesome! Not uber strong as some of the tiers, but I feel it is really really fun to play with so much strong cards as reality smasher, TKS, strangler, sorin in the same shell.
Right now i'm trying 2 thought seizes and 2 brutality, but feel like only 2 T1 discard is a little risky on the current meta. Also playing a split of 2 matter reshapers and 2 displacers, the latter as a threat removal more than a TKS blinker. reseting a Delver or tapping some troublesome creatures to land TKS blows is really good, because of lack of evasion.
Also thiking of dropping sea gate wreakage for a second vault or OGT oran-rif.
Yesterday I saw a list somewhere running 1-of Phyrexian metamorph. Do you think it could be a thing? as a 5th smasher/TKS?
Turn 1 discard is never risky. It helps us plan out our remaining turns and we can remove their best card from their hand. It is amazing if they mulligan and keep a shaky hand. Discard through thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek is one of the main reasons to run B.
Phyrexian metamorph is horrible when we don't have a board presence. I would rather play something else.
So here's my list and SB guide I ran at the FtF 3k open last week with 176 players. I'm interested in peoples thoughts on the SB guide. If they agree or disagree with choices. Any questions on my choices feel free to ask.
Edit: PtE = Path to exile, TS = thoughtsezie, IoK = inquisition of kozilek, RoP = relic of progenitus, CoBr = collective brutality, GtfT = Go for the throat, Dec = Declaration in Stone, BA = Blessed alliance
Thanks for the nice sideboard guide! I do have a few comments/questions:
Infect
You should board in warping wail rather than a sorcery speed removal (declaration in stone) and a card that cannot hit lands (ratchet bomb)
Affinity
Zealous persecution is great in this matchup. Looking at your decklist I would try something like this:
Out: relic x4, thoughtseize x2, iok x2, go for the throat
In: ratchet, disenchant, zealous, declaration, pithing, languish, stony x2, damnation x1
Soul sisters
Discard is not as great in this matchup. All of their creatures have such a low CMC that they just dump their hand in the first couple of turns. I would side out the relics before matter reshaper. Bring in that disenchant to take care of honor of the pure.
Why do you bring in warping wail for blue moon?
You should try out a worship in the side sometime. Some decks cannot beat it.
This card seems insane for us, as it doesn't kill our big dudes, and deals with selfless spirit
Sadly it is not for us. It would be good in a bw deadguy ale brew. I was hoping for a -3/-3 3CMC sweeper instead. That would be great against zoo decks.
The worst part about this card is that now we know damnation will not be reprinted.
Ok, so i've ran the deck to a 2-2 finish yesterday.
Round 1: BW Tokens
Match 1 he had a slow start and stripped my Sorin, Solemn Visitor.
I did Brutality and knew from there on that he had no Gas.
I drew into some Eldrazi and overwhelmed him. 1-0
Match 2 was literally teh same. He had Spectral Procession, but i traded favorably with Matter Reshaper
and finally overwhelmed him again. 2-0
Round 2: UWr Nahiri
I had to mull, but he was stuck on 2 Lands for a couple of turns. I couldn't handle Ancestral vision and he drew 3 Cards off it.
What to expect of 3 CArds? He drew into 3 Lands and finally couldn't keep up. 1-0
I had no board and was out of Cards. My opponent had quartered my sea gate wreckage.
He passed and i topdecked reality smasher ftw. 2-0
Round 3: Green Stompy
Here's where my luck ended.
Match 1 i was totally screwed. I mulled to 6 and was stucked on 2 Lands for a long time being.
I finally did TKS, but his leatherback baloth + aspect of hydra were enough to beat me finally.
0-1
Match 2 i was screwed too. I've mulled to 6 with a mediocre hand. He dropped threat after threat and i found 0 Removal.
0-2
I had no removal for TiTi and put out Spirit tokens and Strangler.
TiTi flipped and killed my with double mutagenic growth + Apostel's blessing.
0-1
I was pretty damned sure he had no Blood Moon, as he told me a week ago.
Now he had and i wasn't prepared.
Match 2 i fetched Shrine and dropped Matter reshaper, which hits for 12 consecutive damage.
He dropped T3 Moon and i was overall screwed. He bolted Reshaper and i found another one off of my deck.
Then came Bedlam Reveler and Titi on his side, which closed teh game in like 2 Turns.
0-2
Thoughts:
After these Matches i instantly switched teh following:
- 1 (of 2) Brutality
- 1 Sorin
- 1 IoK
+ 2 thoughtseize
+ 1 timely reinforcements
As you can see - 2 Discard, + 2 Discard, - 2 Lifelink-Card, + 1 Lifelink-Card.
I had teh feeling i needed more B-Discard and IoK had been a bit underwhelming.
I'm really looking for something else instead of Reinforcements. Sorin was too low of an impact,
so i switched him to my sideboard. Isn't there any relevant 4-Drop for us, kind of Siege Rhino?
What is your decklist? Is it the one posted here? What is your current sideboard? I would like to comment more, but I need to know your decklist and sideboard first.
I got 3rd/4th in a small GPT on Sunday, going 3-1 in the Swiss and losing in the semifinals.
I played the same list I’ve been on for the past couple months with a small tweak to the SB to improve the match against Dredge and hopefully Valakut decks:
The Swiss: vs. Naya Burn: 2-0 (1-0)
I now feel that this match is pretty favorable overall, best of three. Brutality is an absolute house, and Strangler and Reshaper are both outstanding here as well. Lifegain from the side is also important, though I didn't need it this time. Notable plays: processed a Rift Bolt to kill a Swiftspear in G1; took zero damage from Eidolon over three turns in G2, landing Seer, Smasher, and then Sorin.
SIDE IN: Alliance x2, Timely x1, Bomb x2, Brutality x1, Wastes x1
SIDE OUT: Thoughtseixe x3, Unmaking x1, Relic x2, Cavern x1
vs. Mono-W Death & Taxes: 1-2 (1-1)
Awesome match with crazy game states. In G1 I removed his T2 Vial with my sole maindeck Unmaking before it could come online, which led me to feel pretty confident. I ended up stabilizing at 4 life with Spirit token blockers and a hand full of power, but he was able to slip past my Spirits by using Brave the Elements. In G2 he landed a T2 Arbiter while I had white mana up. I Pathed his Dryad Militant EOT (having Souls in hand) and then used a Ghost Quarter to get one of his lands. Over the next few turns we worked together to play a total of FIVE Ghost Quarters and THREE Paths (!) under that same Arbiter, before I removed it with Ratchet Bomb. After I killed his dude he was left mana-less as I drew lands to cast my hand full of Spirits and Eldrazi. In G3 I once again stabilized at low life with Spirit chumps, but lost to a topdecked Brave the Elements. Notable Plays: Using my own GQs to wreck his manabase (with no Vial in play) under his Arbiter.
SIDE IN: Needle x2, Bomb x2, Alliance x2, Unmaking x1, Brutality x1, Wastes x1
SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Thoughtseize x3, Cavern x1
vs. Sun and Moon: 2-0 (2-1)
I’d never played against this deck before, and I don’t usually track changes to the meta closely, so it was new to me. I wondered what he was up to after he mulled to 6, opened with a maindeck Leyline of Sanctity, and then passed without playing a spell for the first few turns (no Moon or Chalice). In G1 two Smashers were key in removing Chandra and Gideon, while Vent was essential in cleaning up walkers too, after they’d minused to remove the creature threats I was landing. In G2 I played around Moon by Pathing a Strangler in response to it, getting a Wastes. Two more Smashers closed that game out for me as well. Notable plays: Playing around Blood Moon using Path; Ghost Quarter can also do this when needed.
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Bomb x2, Needle x2, Extraction x2 (had nothing else good and hoped to possibly hit a walker), Wastes x1
SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Go for the Throat x1, Brutality x1, Cavern x1
vs. BR BridgelessRack brew: 2-1 (3-1)
This was a pretty easy match--because no Bridge--but also a weird one. In G1 I got 3x Lingering Souls in hand by like T4 and easily won with an army of flyers while he drew zero sweepers. In G2 I stupidly played right into a T3 Blood Moon that I should have seen coming, and ceded at 20 life after he landed a Kalitas and I had only Mountains on the field and in hand. Notable plays: In G3 I kept my Relic active and used it as I intended to save my own Smashers from his Surgical Extraction, which is a card that always features in Rack decks.
SIDE IN: Timely x1, Alliance x2, Bomb x2, Unmaking x1, Wastes x1 (in G3)
SIDE OUT: Thoughtseize x3, Brutality x1, Go for the Throat x1, Cavern x1 (in G3)
Top 8 vs. BR Rack: 2-0 (1-0)
Same guy, same story, easy win. However in G2 he sided in his entire board (!) but somehow managed to flood anyway in the late game. BUT he also managed to Extract all my Smashers, Slaughter Games all my Seers, and then look at my hand later in the game using Thoughtseize to take a Reshaper, leaving me with only all 4 Paths in hand (!) which he got with another Games on the next turn. Bizarre. Vent closed this one out for me as he failed to draw a Bolt.
vs. Grixis Delver: 1-2 (1-1 and eliminated)
Usually this match isn’t too bad if I can get rid of an early Delver. In G1 2x Lingering Souls plus TKS made it easy, but in both G2 and G3 I somehow managed to miss all my removal save one card (Path in G2 and Blessed Alliance in G3) in each game. It was a frustrating loss, as I have a gazillion ways to kill a Delver when I need to, but couldn’t find any of them in these games. I also drew all four Relics in BOTH of these games, cracking them to draw more lands, more Relics, and stuff like the easily-chumped Reshaper. Bummer. I think I should have sided differently in this match. Notable plays: In G2 I intentionally threw my only in-hand Path into a Mana Leak I’d seen earlier on his T3 EOT , in order to make way for my own T3 Seer. Turned out that Delver killed me. I also mis-sequenced in G3 and cast a Souls into a Spell Pierce I could have avoided by being smarter.
SIDE IN: Alliance x2, Bomb x2
SIDE OUT: Unmaking x1, Sorin x1, Brutality x1
Thoughts: Mind Stone proved its worth again today by getting me to 4 mana when I would have been dead without it in G1 of round 4 in the Swiss. It is also part of the plan against Blood Moon and I view it as essential to the build.
I don’t worry about Blood Moon anymore, by the way; with three B/W fetches, four basics in all my “colors" post-board, three Ghost Quarters, four Paths, and two Stones, I can just about always find a hand that will allow me to get the mana I need. Thoughtseize (or Seer on the play, with Temple) can rip Moon out of hand, and Bomb can get it after it has landed. Unmaking can hit it as well, if the Swamp and Plains are in play, as they are a surprising amount of the time. Most decks with Moon are not very fast and leave me enough breathing room to pull these tricks off, as long as I am playing with this end in mind.
If I hadn’t misplayed (and gotten a little unlucky) in the semis, there is no reason I couldn’t have won the event, since Affinity was the other player in the finals. I feel the deck is pretty well-placed—as much as any midrange deck is right now anyway—and I still enjoy the many angles of attack, and the versatility, a great deal.
Just a few points because I don't have much time right now.
Wrath of god or damnation doesn't really matter since most of our sources are W and B. Damnation is cooler though (and sounds more metal).
I think that you should have both of your collective brutalities in your main when you play against grixis delver. They run so many instants and sorceries (so it is never dead) and it can also kill an unflipped delver.
What matchups do you bring in declaration in stone? I am still a fan of disenchant in the sideboard (it would of come in against, sun and moon, both 8-rack games, and grixis delver). Celestial purge is also very, very nice.
You side in wastes a lot and bring out cavern. Maybe you should just have wastes mainboard and put a different card in the side.
I feel like we have had this conversation before, but have you considered engineered explosives instead of ratchet bomb? Yes, for the most part engineered explosives can only hit CMC of 2 or less, but you run 2 anguished unmaking which can take care of higher cmc permanents. However, engineered can hit CMC 0 permants on turn 2 (same with ratchet bomb), hit CMC 1 on turn 2 or 3 (ratchet bomb is turn 3), hit CMC 2 on turn 3 or 4 (ratchet bomb is turn 4), and engineered is a much better top deck later in the game because you can cast and crack it on the same turn.
Good job though! I am back on the mind stone train! Blood moon is a thing of the past.
here are some initial thoughts on teh past couple of comments:
1st: Selfless Spirit
BW Eldrazi is a Midrange-Deck in it's purest form, so therefore it's mandatory to avoid situational Cards like Spirit.
One thing this deck should be build around is, that as many cards as possible must be good topdecks.
Spirit doesn't fit that bill. The thing that it does add to teh deck, it's that it prevent a huge supreme verdict blowout.
It does not prevent terminate or path in a reliable way - that's where Spellskite really shines (a card
i highly advise if you need a reliable 2-Drop). It even slows down valakut, the molten pinnacle.
If we are concerned 'bout Anger or Verdict, i expect it's better to not over-extend into it or strip those Cards wiht Discard-Spells.
I always board a burrenton forge-tender against decks with Anger. That's totally fine.
I don't know if selfless spirit is a good fit for the deck but I would like to correct a few things:
Selfless spirt stops terminate and doesn't cost 2 life (which is what spellskite would cost). However, it doesn't stop path to exile.
I would argue that spellskite is a more situational card than selfless spirit. Selfless spirit has evasion and can do damage to the opponent. Spellskite is a 0/4 wall that costs us 2 life to redirect a spell to it.
Think of selfless spirit as a 2/1 flying beater for 2 mana that can protect your creatures. This is a possible replacement for tidehollow sculler, if you run that kind of list. They fill very different roles but is a better late game top-deck than tidehollow sculler.
Good to see you back, herfs! You have consistently had some great ideas for these decks we play. I think you were the one who first gave Mind Stone a shot, weren't you? I am 100% sold on that card now in this high-curve build. As mentioned above I am not a fan of Lili, in this deck.
Thanks! I am pretty sure that was me. The bw eldrazi archtype needed a mana ramp source and it was between mind stone or a crappy talisman or keystone. I played a in a very small event last night and mind stone worked perfectly. I was able to consistently hit 3 mana and I could keep opening hands that contained 2 lands and a mind stone.
Regarding the oft-discussed 2-drop slot, I see it as a special case in this build and work around it by A) playing a T2 tapland plus 1 CMC card; B) Mind Stone, Go for the Throat (much better than Path against dorks) or Brutality; or C) Temple plus Reshaper or Strangler. As you know, T3 is the crucial turn for this deck and T1-2 are just setting up. I do have a lot of 2 -drops in the side as well, and most are there for the fast decks, so that helps.
I still feel like the deck is lacking on the 2-drop slot. I ordered some selfless spirits to test out. My thought process on why these are decent for the deck are:
It has 2 power, evasion, is easy on the mana, and can apply pressure.
On a stalled board, we can play our sweepers and sac the spirit in response. This is a complete blowout but will not happen often.
People love killing thought-knot seer and reality smasher and we need our own spellskite-like creature to protect our more important creatures. It doesn't protect us against path but I would rather have a 2/1 flyer instead of spellskite.
It might help the tron matchup. Oblivion stones would be useless and we can go all out.
One downfall of selfless spirit is that it has 1 toughtness. It will die to anything.
Extraction is inherent card-disadvantage, it's true. However it can lead to some backbreaking (albeit sometimes difficult to execute) plays against decks that do have one key card, like combo or Valakut. And it can get Prized Amalgam at any time, which is a big deal.
Right now I am considering adding two SE's for Dredge, Ad Nauseam, and the RG Valakut decks, but I can't find room for it without nerfing the aggro hate I am finding so useful right now. Can't believe I'm saying it, but I'm thinking of taking out a Stony Silence, since SE could also come in against Tron, and Affinity is really pretty easy overall. One of my two Declarations is the other candidate. That would make my side look like this, with both Unmaking and Brutality as a 2-of split main/side:
HA! That is great. I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago about stony silence. Between my all of my sweepers in the board, lingering souls, and disenchant the matchup isn't too terrible.
I don't find the dredge matchup to be that difficult. It can be very explosive at times, but once we get our larger creatures out there prized amalgam is not a problem. I'm just not a fan of surgical because you need to be able to put the problematic card in their graveyard and the odds of that are somewhat low. Scapeshift (or rg breach) and tron are hard matchups that I have just given up on. Maybe we should just put a couple duress in the side. I haven't tried out declaration in stone and I don't know how it preforms.
How much work is Shambling Vent doing for you guys? Do you use the ability often? Does it impact the game? Is the getting into play tapped causing problems often or is the manland so good that it doesn't matter that much?
Shambling vent is a great utility card that is available to us. It helps us when there is a stalled board state and gains us a little life when we need it. It is a good 2-of in the deck but doesn't put in any serious work. Raging ravine is a much better manland, but shambling vent is what we have. Coming into play tapped can be a problem. However, it is usually in our opening hand or a top deck later in the game.
I finally have some more time to get back into MTG. Recently, the processor brew has been mediocre. My last 4 events I have either won it or went 2-2. This is a big change where I used to x-0 the majority of the local modern events and I believe that it is due to three things. First, the people around here know my deck pretty well now and have started adding specific sideboard cards for me (night of souls' betrayal really hurts). Second, mistakes on my part. This happens, I am a human. Third, the deck stalls out. This is probably due to me cutting mind stone in favor of liliana of the veil. Liliana is amazing, BUT I have lost a lot of games by only hitting 2 mana. Our deck needs to hit 3 (minimum) during a match to do decent.
I am cutting my liliana's in favor of mind stone. I have missed them. I talked about why I initially cut them here.
I have been back and forth on the tidehollow sculler train. The 2/2 body is underwhelming but do not underestimate the importance of looking at the opponents hand. I have had a love/hate relationship with the 'sculler and I rambled on a lot about the card here. However, I feel this deck needs some more card draw and I really don't like it when my creatures eat a removal spell. Therefore, I am going to cut tidehollow sculler in favor of selfless spirit. This will ease up the mana restrictions and I can give sea gate wreckage another chance.
Here is my decklist that I'll be trying out in the future (suggestions more than welcome!):
i'm new to this deck too, but not new to the format at all.
Tidehollow Sculler looks great on paper, but i ensure you, after some test matches i concluded that it is super-clunky and totally off-curve.
blight herder is inferior to reality smasher because Smasher closes Games much faster and forces 2-for-1's the same way Herder does. matter reshaper is a 3-of for me right now. He is alright, providing a clock, chumps and cantrips.
Here are my own findings with teh deck:
I've cutted vault of the archangel because i always died before i got time to use it.
For now i'm running 3 Quarter + 1 Wreckage.
Sideboarding is tough at times.
I recently lost bluntly to Affinity. Match 1 he dropped his hand Turn 1 and killed me Turn 3.
Match he spell pierce'd my Stony and killed me Turn 3 again.
Does anyone board surgical extraction against Bant Eldrazi?
I found this MU tough to board.
Another question:
Do we have something really great against Uwr Nahiri?
Another Planeswalker or something else?
Surgical extraction is just a bad card. Modern decks are resilient enough to usually survive and they don't rely on one win-con. It automatically puts you one card behind in your hand and it relys on another card to put whatever you want to extract in their graveyard. What decks are you bringing it in for?
thanks for the feedback. Yah, Ratchet Bomb is deserving of a spot in my SB. Is night of souls' betrayal too slow? I've a feeling it is.
It is not too slow. The problem is that it wrecks lingering souls and puts thought-knot seer within bolt range. It is the silver bullet against infect and it is a great sideboard card for Jund, but hurts us more than it benefits. We have access to zealous persecution which I highly recommend at least one of in your 75.
If you are having problems with decks that run wide, pack some more sweepers in the sideboard. Languish is pretty good since reality smasher will survive and it gets around regeneration that the elves deck have. Damnation and wrath of god are easily castable for our deck also. For elves I would probably sideboard out my iok, thoughtseize, and liliana only to replace them with pithing needle(s) and sweepers.
This is great, I think that a lot of the eldrazi are annoying for opponents since they either need to be removed a specific way or are very efficient creatures.
Eternal scourge: Great against decks with spot removal, but not great against decks that run a lot of creatures. Good when paired with relic of progentius for the long game. Matter reshaper: Generates card advantage for us or eats a path to exile. The 3 power kills a lot of creatures in modern. Thought-knot seer: You get to grab their best card and have a 4/4 body. Reality smasher: This card is amazing. Such a good finisher.
I would cut blessed alliance,move it to the sideboard, and cut surgical extraction from the side. Surgical extraction is okay if you have a lot of combo in your meta, but the card is just card disadvantage. Yes, it can be amazing when paired with a ghost quarter against tron, but the odds of you getting those card in your hand for that to happen are pretty low.
Your list is also interesting since you are playing B but only running 2 discard spells. I usually like to run about 6, but maybe a more creature oriented deck is the right way to go.
In your list of cards under consideration, I would put in a couple of copies (or at least 1) of collective brutality.
Since you don't have any main deck ways to exile you might consider cutting eternal scourge and replacing it with matter reshaper. Matter reshaper is amazing. It applies a lot of pressure and trades with pretty much every creature in the format. It is also nice bait for an opponents path to exile which clears the way for a thought-knot seer or reality smasher. Your deck has a lot of CMC 3 or less drops that it can hit also.
For your sideboard, you should include some sweepers since decks that go really wide can be a problem. Languish is a good option as well as the typical damnation or wrath of god.
I like the aven mindcensor tech. I have a huge problem with scapeshift and tron and have found lost legacy to be underwhelming.
As you can see, my list is slightly different from the classic processor list. I'm playing Esper + colourless, a slightly more controlling list. Suggestions are welcome!
It is really hard to run a 4 color deck with no fetch-able C sources. Aether vial helps out with that plan, but there are plenty of games where you don't play it on turn 1. It looks like you are running blue solely for ashiok, delay, and detention sphere. I would just cut blue and run discard instead. You can always run oblivion ring instead of detention sphere, but others have found that card to either too slow or just a dead card in hand (some people talked a bit about it some pages back in this thread).
Your deck is very close to a bwc death and taxes build. You can find the forum here if you are interested. I tried the deck out for a while and I found the deck to be hit-or-miss depending on wether I drew aether vial or not. I really missed playing lingering souls, so I came back to bwc midrange.
This is my current list after yesterdays small tournament.
I originally had 2 Tidehollow Scullers and 1 more IoK in the list and cut them for 3 Matter Reshapers as I think Sculler is only good as a 3-4 of and in combination with Displacer and 4 IoK 2 Thoughtseize + TKS are too much hand disruption.
Blight Herder felt awesome in many matchups as the tokens were awesome blockers, are great with Sorin, you keep three bodies when they remove the Blight Herder and they also produce mana.
I'm not sure about the sideboard yet, but I know I want to buy at least 2 Wraths of God / Day of Judgement. (Also going to add 1-2 Mind Stones Mainboard as I have Blood Moon decks in my meta)
Lili and Marsh Flats are out of my price league at the moment, I'm waiting for a reprint and already got the 4 BW fastlands in my preorder for Kaladesh.
My current Sideboard changes were made accordingly to my local meta and the decks (players) that show up 100% of the time:
Skred Red, Norin Soul Sisters, 2x Infect, Affinity, Dredge, U/R Delver, Grixis Control and monoU Tron.
Other decks that I play against from time to time are: Thopter/Sword Combo, 8whack, GR Zoo, Jeskai Ascendancy Gifts, Scapeshift, RW Lockdown/Landdestruction, BW Tokens, Cheerios and Goblins.
I originally wanted to play 3 Doom Blades in the Sideboard as I hit nearly every creature in my meta with it, but only had 2 in my collection so the 2 Collective Brutalities will probably be replaced by them.
I'm open for any suggestions.
I would get a couple sweepers for sure. Even flaying tendrils would kill most of the creatures in your meta.
If there is a lot of blood moon in your meta, I would shift the wastes to the main board just in case you need to path your own creature to get a colorless source.
I would consider smother or darkblast instead of doom blade. Darkblast is great against affinity, infect, and okay against soul sisters.
Fatal push is amazing. It is huge for us. It hits manlands and misses our smashers! I will probably run 4 path's and 2 of these main deck. It will help us out against aggro decks.
It is a very interesting deck and I enjoyed watching the videos a few days ago. However, adding red really strains the mana base but you do get one of the ideal sweepers we need (3 damage for 3 mana anger of the gods), bolt, and kolaghan's command. Those three cards are the most compelling reasons to splash red. After looking at this deck and evaluating the 2-drop slot for us, I think that we should just cut our 2-drop creatures entirely in favor of Liliana, the last hope (this card has everything we need and is a good top-deck in the late game if we are careful with our relics), Eldrazi displacer (this card has proven to be amazing and very useful in a lot of situations), and additional kill spells.
Here is where I am at for a deck:
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mind Stone
Sorcery (10)
4 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Path to Exile
1 Smother
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana, the last hope
Yeah fast aggro is a HUGE problem and I have been trying to deal with it for a long time. When I play against zoo there are some hands that I just cannot beat. If I make it to turn 4, however, I usually win the game. The best cards that I have found are iok, path, and blessed alliance. Boros charm is the main reason that I run languish over damnation. I'm glad that you kicked butt in the GPT! I placed 3rd in a local GPT with a similar number of players.
Welcome! Here are some answers to your questions:
1. They don't. Tron is very resilient around loosing 1 land, that we have to get somewhat lucky to have our ghost quarters slow them down more than 1 turn. Scapeshift it has hardly any effect. Any scapeshift player worth their salt will fetch 6 mountains to make sure that valakut will still kill us if we ghost quarter a mountain. These matchups are so horrible for us, that I don't dedicate much sideboard hate because I would have to dedicate so many cards that my other matchup percentages would suffer.
2. Totally depends on the deck. The majority of modern decks run 3ish basics but there are decks that do not run any (such as the death shadows deck).
3. Grim Discovery is interesting, but crucible of worlds is just better if you want to ghost quarter-lock them.
4. The crux cards are: thought-knot seer, path of exile, relic of progenitus, reality smasher, lingering souls, and wasteland strangler. I am always on the fence of just cutting my relics to go straight midrange, but relics are currently very well positioned.
5. Even though we have great cards against infect the deck is so good it is annoying. I have around a 30% win rate against infect but the matchups are always really close. A quick summary of my previous four games against infect I: lost on turn 3 twice, lost on turn 4 after using thoughtseize and a path, lost on turn 6 after they top-deck a become immense where I was going to win the next turn.
6. If you want to add these cards, I would suggest just going eldrazi and taxes. They have a much better tron matchup. Every deck has their good and bad matchups. I like to run lingering souls and make jund players cry, which I why I play this deck.
Yeah, I was a bit confused by the mana also. Fetid heath and urborg help a lot, but you still need about 19 B or W sources to make it work. The cavern of souls seems really odd to me with the liliana in the main. However, the fuliminator mage + liliana looks like it makes up for the lack of ghost quarters. I agree that the meta that this deck played against was in was probably aggro-light.
2x thoughtseize in the side sounds more like a vintage (or legacy) sideboard and isn't too odd. I sometimes have additional discard spells in my side if I know I'll be playing against tron or control.
It is not surprising to see the new liliana in the deck. It was talked about a few pages ago starting here but nobody has reported on it. I think that it is an amazing fit for our deck but I am waiting until it gets much cheaper to pick a few up.
The more surprising thing, to me, is running 3x blight herder and ZERO discard! I have always been hesitant to cut discard from this deck, but maybe I should give it a try.
Personally, I am just trying them out.
Some lists do not run that much discard and do not need them. If you run 5+ thoughtseize or iok, I would try them out to see if they work.
Turn 1 discard is never risky. It helps us plan out our remaining turns and we can remove their best card from their hand. It is amazing if they mulligan and keep a shaky hand. Discard through thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek is one of the main reasons to run B.
Phyrexian metamorph is horrible when we don't have a board presence. I would rather play something else.
Thanks for the nice sideboard guide! I do have a few comments/questions:
Infect
You should board in warping wail rather than a sorcery speed removal (declaration in stone) and a card that cannot hit lands (ratchet bomb)
Affinity
Zealous persecution is great in this matchup. Looking at your decklist I would try something like this:
Out: relic x4, thoughtseize x2, iok x2, go for the throat
In: ratchet, disenchant, zealous, declaration, pithing, languish, stony x2, damnation x1
Soul sisters
Discard is not as great in this matchup. All of their creatures have such a low CMC that they just dump their hand in the first couple of turns. I would side out the relics before matter reshaper. Bring in that disenchant to take care of honor of the pure.
Why do you bring in warping wail for blue moon?
You should try out a worship in the side sometime. Some decks cannot beat it.
Sadly it is not for us. It would be good in a bw deadguy ale brew. I was hoping for a -3/-3 3CMC sweeper instead. That would be great against zoo decks.
The worst part about this card is that now we know damnation will not be reprinted.
What is your decklist? Is it the one posted here? What is your current sideboard? I would like to comment more, but I need to know your decklist and sideboard first.
The relevant 4-drop for us is thought-knot seer and reality smasher (if you have eldrazi temple of mind stone on the battlefield). These two cards are a million times better than siege rhino.
Just a few points because I don't have much time right now.
Good job though! I am back on the mind stone train! Blood moon is a thing of the past.
I don't know if selfless spirit is a good fit for the deck but I would like to correct a few things:
Think of selfless spirit as a 2/1 flying beater for 2 mana that can protect your creatures. This is a possible replacement for tidehollow sculler, if you run that kind of list. They fill very different roles but is a better late game top-deck than tidehollow sculler.
Thanks! I am pretty sure that was me. The bw eldrazi archtype needed a mana ramp source and it was between mind stone or a crappy talisman or keystone. I played a in a very small event last night and mind stone worked perfectly. I was able to consistently hit 3 mana and I could keep opening hands that contained 2 lands and a mind stone.
I still feel like the deck is lacking on the 2-drop slot. I ordered some selfless spirits to test out. My thought process on why these are decent for the deck are:
- It has 2 power, evasion, is easy on the mana, and can apply pressure.
- On a stalled board, we can play our sweepers and sac the spirit in response. This is a complete blowout but will not happen often.
- People love killing thought-knot seer and reality smasher and we need our own spellskite-like creature to protect our more important creatures. It doesn't protect us against path but I would rather have a 2/1 flyer instead of spellskite.
- It might help the tron matchup. Oblivion stones would be useless and we can go all out.
One downfall of selfless spirit is that it has 1 toughtness. It will die to anything.HA! That is great. I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago about stony silence. Between my all of my sweepers in the board, lingering souls, and disenchant the matchup isn't too terrible.
I don't find the dredge matchup to be that difficult. It can be very explosive at times, but once we get our larger creatures out there prized amalgam is not a problem. I'm just not a fan of surgical because you need to be able to put the problematic card in their graveyard and the odds of that are somewhat low. Scapeshift (or rg breach) and tron are hard matchups that I have just given up on. Maybe we should just put a couple duress in the side. I haven't tried out declaration in stone and I don't know how it preforms.
Shambling vent is a great utility card that is available to us. It helps us when there is a stalled board state and gains us a little life when we need it. It is a good 2-of in the deck but doesn't put in any serious work. Raging ravine is a much better manland, but shambling vent is what we have. Coming into play tapped can be a problem. However, it is usually in our opening hand or a top deck later in the game.
I am cutting my liliana's in favor of mind stone. I have missed them. I talked about why I initially cut them here.
I have been back and forth on the tidehollow sculler train. The 2/2 body is underwhelming but do not underestimate the importance of looking at the opponents hand. I have had a love/hate relationship with the 'sculler and I rambled on a lot about the card here. However, I feel this deck needs some more card draw and I really don't like it when my creatures eat a removal spell. Therefore, I am going to cut tidehollow sculler in favor of selfless spirit. This will ease up the mana restrictions and I can give sea gate wreckage another chance.
Here is my decklist that I'll be trying out in the future (suggestions more than welcome!):
3 Selfless Spirit
1 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
Artifacts (5)
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mind Stone
Sorcery (9)
4 Lingering Souls
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Path to Exile
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Land (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Concealed Courtyard
3 Marsh Flats
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Day of Judgment
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered explosives
1 Stony Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in peace
1 Zealous persecution
2 Pithing needle
1 Worship
1 Celestial Purge
1 Smother
Surgical extraction is just a bad card. Modern decks are resilient enough to usually survive and they don't rely on one win-con. It automatically puts you one card behind in your hand and it relys on another card to put whatever you want to extract in their graveyard. What decks are you bringing it in for?
Against UWR Nahiri I would bring in celestial purge. It hits a lot of problematic modern cards (liliana of the veil, nahiri, the harbinger, blood moon, kalitas, traitor of ghet, and many more) that I recommend it in your sideboard.
It is not too slow. The problem is that it wrecks lingering souls and puts thought-knot seer within bolt range. It is the silver bullet against infect and it is a great sideboard card for Jund, but hurts us more than it benefits. We have access to zealous persecution which I highly recommend at least one of in your 75.
If you are having problems with decks that run wide, pack some more sweepers in the sideboard. Languish is pretty good since reality smasher will survive and it gets around regeneration that the elves deck have. Damnation and wrath of god are easily castable for our deck also. For elves I would probably sideboard out my iok, thoughtseize, and liliana only to replace them with pithing needle(s) and sweepers.
This is great, I think that a lot of the eldrazi are annoying for opponents since they either need to be removed a specific way or are very efficient creatures.
Eternal scourge: Great against decks with spot removal, but not great against decks that run a lot of creatures. Good when paired with relic of progentius for the long game.
Matter reshaper: Generates card advantage for us or eats a path to exile. The 3 power kills a lot of creatures in modern.
Thought-knot seer: You get to grab their best card and have a 4/4 body.
Reality smasher: This card is amazing. Such a good finisher.
I would cut blessed alliance,move it to the sideboard, and cut surgical extraction from the side. Surgical extraction is okay if you have a lot of combo in your meta, but the card is just card disadvantage. Yes, it can be amazing when paired with a ghost quarter against tron, but the odds of you getting those card in your hand for that to happen are pretty low.
Your list is also interesting since you are playing B but only running 2 discard spells. I usually like to run about 6, but maybe a more creature oriented deck is the right way to go.
In your list of cards under consideration, I would put in a couple of copies (or at least 1) of collective brutality.
Since you don't have any main deck ways to exile you might consider cutting eternal scourge and replacing it with matter reshaper. Matter reshaper is amazing. It applies a lot of pressure and trades with pretty much every creature in the format. It is also nice bait for an opponents path to exile which clears the way for a thought-knot seer or reality smasher. Your deck has a lot of CMC 3 or less drops that it can hit also.
For your sideboard, you should include some sweepers since decks that go really wide can be a problem. Languish is a good option as well as the typical damnation or wrath of god.
I like the aven mindcensor tech. I have a huge problem with scapeshift and tron and have found lost legacy to be underwhelming.
It is really hard to run a 4 color deck with no fetch-able C sources. Aether vial helps out with that plan, but there are plenty of games where you don't play it on turn 1. It looks like you are running blue solely for ashiok, delay, and detention sphere. I would just cut blue and run discard instead. You can always run oblivion ring instead of detention sphere, but others have found that card to either too slow or just a dead card in hand (some people talked a bit about it some pages back in this thread).
Why are you running mastery of the unseen?
Your deck is very close to a bwc death and taxes build. You can find the forum here if you are interested. I tried the deck out for a while and I found the deck to be hit-or-miss depending on wether I drew aether vial or not. I really missed playing lingering souls, so I came back to bwc midrange.
I would get a couple sweepers for sure. Even flaying tendrils would kill most of the creatures in your meta.
If there is a lot of blood moon in your meta, I would shift the wastes to the main board just in case you need to path your own creature to get a colorless source.
I would consider smother or darkblast instead of doom blade. Darkblast is great against affinity, infect, and okay against soul sisters.
Has anybody done some real testing with liliana, the last hope? How does it compare to liliana of the veil?