Your claim only "proves" that grindclock is better than ashiok. But this is not the same as saying it is the best win con. If 1) you think ashiok is #1 and 2) you buy into your claims (which seem reasonable to me) then yes, clock is #1. But i still prefer PLA/tasigur/silumgar/ugin as win cons. Here is my thinking:
Right, sorry; I have been posting from my phone, so my arguments haven't been as cohesive and straight-forward as possible. Many of the lists here are rocking 4 Ashiok + 1-3 other win-conditions (and so I deem anything that can win the game, not necessarily those that do not have other purposes). Thus, my argument is that Grindclock should replace Ashiok at the very least, and perhaps lets them remove the other cards as well.
I played 2 PLA as my only win conditions before and I did fine; I'm just looking for an adaptation that will prove advantageous now that the meta is settling down and more mirrors are happening.
There are several main archetypes right now, and we can limit our discussion to these. Namely, UB(g) control, Abzan control, Abzan aggro, Whip decks, RW aggro, and traditional aggro (XW heroic and R aggro).
Against UB(g) control, Grindclock is the best (among GC, PLA, Tas, Sil) since it leaves HDF's stranded in their hand and you can race PLA by bouncing it.
Against Abzan control, Grindclock is the best in this same set.
Against Abzan aggro, Ashiok may be better than Grindclock here, and Silumgar may be reasonable also. Although, if they don't draw Rakshasha Deathdealer, it's a free roll anyway.
Against Whip decks, obviously Grindclock is the best.
Against RW aggro, Silumgar, Ashiok, and Grindclock are all fine. I'm not sure which is best.
Against traditional aggro, everything sucks, but at least Grindclock can get us to Dig earlier to try to salvage the match.
From this list, it seems like Grindclock and Silumgar are fine, with Ashiok a little behind. I don't like tapping 7 mana mainphase for Silumgar, so obviously he's out. PLA is the cleanest choice, but when every deck in the format has 4-7 dead cards that become obscene tempo plays against PLA, I'm not as interest in him... *shrug*, whatchu' think?
PLA is a flash blocker that blocks mostly anything, dies to mostly nothing, and gains life/scry by bouncing lands. It so happens to eventually beat down your opponent: defensive, resilient, quick clock. I give it an A.
Silumgar is a blocker sometimes, a wrath on a stick other times. Also, super resilient. But since his defensive powers are less than PLA, so I prefer PLA.
Tasigur is also a blocker, but gains card advantage that can help you defend vs any threat they throw at you. Of course, the quality of the cards you get through Tasigur is not always top notch. Also, unless one Tasi gets another, not very resilient in matchups involving downfall/silence.
Ugin is a wrath/Sphinx revelation for 7 that eventually will burn your opponent. But, as with the others, not quite very resilient vs certain opponents.
What, grindclock is the last thing you would want vs aggro. Card does nothing..
Right, but none of our win conditions do, so there's no argument to be had here. If anything, clock can turn Dig on earlier to try to save ourselves.
Grindclock only comes in vs the mirror. It's terrible vs aggro.
Yeah, it is terrible against aggro, but it's strictly better than any other potential win con.[/quote]
Are you actually suggesting that people should use Grindclock against Aggro to mill themselves in order to DTT?
No, my argument is that Grindclock is the best win condition against control; midrange is very easy no matter what win condition we use; and all of our win conditions suck against aggro, but at least the clock can get us earlier DTTs.
How about Grindclock as our win condition? It's like Ashiok, but lets us cast two spells per turn faster and can evade countermagic in the mirror.
It's good in the mirror, but it's not where I'd want to be against any other deck.
I think clock is better than Ashiok in the mirror and against Aggro. Against midrange, downing Ashiok is awesome, of course, but if they aren't in a position to kill Ashiok does it matter what th wincondition you have online is?
Um, ok. Please cite some statistics or win percentages.
Says the person who claimed Grindclock dies to removal and Ashiok's more survivable.
It was an opinion and I can lay it out more clearly perhaps.
Grindclock is #1 win condition in the mirror. It evades all removal (even most counterspells due to its speed).
None of our win conditions help against aggro, but at least clock makes T4 Dig marginally more reliable.
Against midrange, if we're ahead then it doesn't matter what win condition we have online. If we're behind, then Ashiok's going to be mill 3 gain 5 life or mill 3 target opponent discards a hero's downfall. Maybe the first mode is enough to stabilize and Ashiok could be better here. But maybe getting a clock that can't be attacked going is just as good.
My point is that Grindclock is the best we can do against very fast and very slow decks, and side midrange is a BigDog to us, it really doesn't matter what we run against them. If this is true, then Grindclock should be our main win conditions with more suitable win conditions coming in against Aggro and midrange. It also makes the mirror rounds byes since we win game 1 often and don't get to finish any other games.
How about Grindclock as our win condition? It's like Ashiok, but lets us cast two spells per turn faster and can evade countermagic in the mirror.
It's good in the mirror, but it's not where I'd want to be against any other deck.
I think clock is better than Ashiok in the mirror and against Aggro. Against midrange, downing Ashiok is awesome, of course, but if they aren't in a position to kill Ashiok does it matter what th wincondition you have online is?
MMM, Grindclock as Ashiok 5+ is one thing (if you need it, I don't think you do). Grindclock instead of Ashiok isn't very reasonable, too easy to remove before it has a major effect.
Uhhh. Grindclock doesn't did to anything reasonable. That's the whole premise for its inclusion.
Crap. I added the Pain Seer just now (the slot had previously belonged to under-performing Fate Unravelers), and hadn't considered the non-bo with Delve. Treasure Cruise is too good to cut, so I guess the Seer has to go.
Not sure what to replace it with, though. I drain both players of resources very quickly and need some way to reload, but I'm not finding many creatures in Standard that fill that role.
Stop being narrow-minded. Grim Lavamancer has been played as a 3-of (and only as three since four would be drawn in multiples which compete with each other) in Legacy and Modern Burn alongside 4 Goblin Guide for a long time. They're both very good cards and "dies to removal" isn't an excuse to not run the card. If you're running burn, then it is essential that you have 2-3 Grim Lavamancer or 3-4 Treasure Cruise--it's simply a fact. Both cards help you gain virtual card advantage by drawing cards out of the graveyard, which is very relevant considering this deck is spell-based. If you only had 3-4 creatures total in the deck, then I would absolutely choose against Grim Lavamancer because then dying to removal is a fine argument; you want your dudes to do something if you know they're going to die. In a 8-19 creature deck (Taylor Swift, Guide, Vexing Devil, Eidiolon, Lavamancer), you're creature-dense enough that as long as the creature is efficient in the pre-midgame, then it doesn't matter if it dies to removal. Play some mirror matches where one deck has 3 Grim Lavamancer and the other deck has 3 not Treasure Cruises; the Lavamancer deck will win more games.
been testing alot against pod and delver , combusts help against pod, and twin
See, the ONLY problem with Cruise is the necessity to fit Shard Volleys in the list to increase its synergy. I like my split of Helixes and Blazes. (for reference, I run something very similar to this list http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/111605) With 3 Blazes and 3 Helixes, there is more than enough defense without sacrificing burn consistency. I'm also looking to include maybe 2 Clifftop Retreats. I think in the meta, focusing a bit more on life totals matters than it did in the past.
No, cruise does not mandate Shard Volley. It is ONLY beneficial to the next Cruise if cast on the same turn and it doesn't add any more cards to the graveyard than necessary for the current Cruise. If you're doing it on the previous EOT, you can have just cast any other bolt or 1-mana spell, then had the mana to use on the Cruise turn instead of it in the GY making the cruise cheaper.
Dol, what's the lowest ratio of fetchable lands to fetchland that you'd like? Also, I see zero land-destruction in the recent Modern tournaments. Why does everyone run 2 of each colored shockland? For turn 2, according to Frank Karsten's mana article, we only need 13 colore sources, and so 12 fetchlands +1 Sacred Foundry, Stomping Ground, or Steam Vents should be adequate. Maybe we want 14 for Bump in the Night, so 2 Blood Crypts (or 1 Blood Crypt and 13! fetchlands), but this seems to be fairly consistent across the board (at 2 of each splashed shockland).
Right, sorry; I have been posting from my phone, so my arguments haven't been as cohesive and straight-forward as possible. Many of the lists here are rocking 4 Ashiok + 1-3 other win-conditions (and so I deem anything that can win the game, not necessarily those that do not have other purposes). Thus, my argument is that Grindclock should replace Ashiok at the very least, and perhaps lets them remove the other cards as well.
I played 2 PLA as my only win conditions before and I did fine; I'm just looking for an adaptation that will prove advantageous now that the meta is settling down and more mirrors are happening.
There are several main archetypes right now, and we can limit our discussion to these. Namely, UB(g) control, Abzan control, Abzan aggro, Whip decks, RW aggro, and traditional aggro (XW heroic and R aggro).
Against UB(g) control, Grindclock is the best (among GC, PLA, Tas, Sil) since it leaves HDF's stranded in their hand and you can race PLA by bouncing it.
Against Abzan control, Grindclock is the best in this same set.
Against Abzan aggro, Ashiok may be better than Grindclock here, and Silumgar may be reasonable also. Although, if they don't draw Rakshasha Deathdealer, it's a free roll anyway.
Against Whip decks, obviously Grindclock is the best.
Against RW aggro, Silumgar, Ashiok, and Grindclock are all fine. I'm not sure which is best.
Against traditional aggro, everything sucks, but at least Grindclock can get us to Dig earlier to try to salvage the match.
From this list, it seems like Grindclock and Silumgar are fine, with Ashiok a little behind. I don't like tapping 7 mana mainphase for Silumgar, so obviously he's out. PLA is the cleanest choice, but when every deck in the format has 4-7 dead cards that become obscene tempo plays against PLA, I'm not as interest in him... *shrug*, whatchu' think?
Right, but none of our win conditions do, so there's no argument to be had here. If anything, clock can turn Dig on earlier to try to save ourselves.
Yeah, it is terrible against aggro, but it's strictly better than any other potential win con.[/quote]
No, my argument is that Grindclock is the best win condition against control; midrange is very easy no matter what win condition we use; and all of our win conditions suck against aggro, but at least the clock can get us earlier DTTs.
Says the person who claimed Grindclock dies to removal and Ashiok's more survivable.
It was an opinion and I can lay it out more clearly perhaps.
Grindclock is #1 win condition in the mirror. It evades all removal (even most counterspells due to its speed).
None of our win conditions help against aggro, but at least clock makes T4 Dig marginally more reliable.
Against midrange, if we're ahead then it doesn't matter what win condition we have online. If we're behind, then Ashiok's going to be mill 3 gain 5 life or mill 3 target opponent discards a hero's downfall. Maybe the first mode is enough to stabilize and Ashiok could be better here. But maybe getting a clock that can't be attacked going is just as good.
My point is that Grindclock is the best we can do against very fast and very slow decks, and side midrange is a BigDog to us, it really doesn't matter what we run against them. If this is true, then Grindclock should be our main win conditions with more suitable win conditions coming in against Aggro and midrange. It also makes the mirror rounds byes since we win game 1 often and don't get to finish any other games.
*shrug*
I think clock is better than Ashiok in the mirror and against Aggro. Against midrange, downing Ashiok is awesome, of course, but if they aren't in a position to kill Ashiok does it matter what th wincondition you have online is?
Uhhh. Grindclock doesn't did to anything reasonable. That's the whole premise for its inclusion.
3 Crater's Claws
4 Mardu Scout
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Flamewake Phoenix
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Plains
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Obviously missing 4 Fanatic of Mogis, Lol. Add them in somehow?
Triglar or whatever could be fine.
Stop being narrow-minded. Grim Lavamancer has been played as a 3-of (and only as three since four would be drawn in multiples which compete with each other) in Legacy and Modern Burn alongside 4 Goblin Guide for a long time. They're both very good cards and "dies to removal" isn't an excuse to not run the card. If you're running burn, then it is essential that you have 2-3 Grim Lavamancer or 3-4 Treasure Cruise--it's simply a fact. Both cards help you gain virtual card advantage by drawing cards out of the graveyard, which is very relevant considering this deck is spell-based. If you only had 3-4 creatures total in the deck, then I would absolutely choose against Grim Lavamancer because then dying to removal is a fine argument; you want your dudes to do something if you know they're going to die. In a 8-19 creature deck (Taylor Swift, Guide, Vexing Devil, Eidiolon, Lavamancer), you're creature-dense enough that as long as the creature is efficient in the pre-midgame, then it doesn't matter if it dies to removal. Play some mirror matches where one deck has 3 Grim Lavamancer and the other deck has 3 not Treasure Cruises; the Lavamancer deck will win more games.
No, cruise does not mandate Shard Volley. It is ONLY beneficial to the next Cruise if cast on the same turn and it doesn't add any more cards to the graveyard than necessary for the current Cruise. If you're doing it on the previous EOT, you can have just cast any other bolt or 1-mana spell, then had the mana to use on the Cruise turn instead of it in the GY making the cruise cheaper.