Add Suggestions:
-No Swarmyard in an Insect Tribal deck makes me a sad man.
-Brass Herald. Calling all bugs!
-Infested Roothold. Most players will be playing artifacts to make this worthwhile, maybe. Maybe.
-Alpha Status, though not a great option without Hexproof guys. Pennon Blade if you're going to have token swarms going on may be the more reliable option. Either option can help you beef up the Commander and fly for the throat of another player.
-Thriss, Nantuko Primus. Helps you fall back on the "make something real big" strategy.
-I don't like one-time use card draw like Altar's Reap. Honestly I'd substitute it for something repeatable like Carnage Altar.
- On a budget I'm a fan of the Diamonds, like Moss Diamond, as the second to the Signets. Also why not Gruul Signet?
Cut Suggestions:
-Mortician Beetle. Stuff that only exists to be a big dork I don't find to be worth it.
-Giant Solifuge. The Shroud helps, but... at the end of the day thanks to that Shroud it's really just a 4/1 bug which isn't a huge benefit in Commander. Especially since the deck seems to want to make swarms and then eat them.
-You have a lot of spot removal, and a lot of artifact and enchantment removal as well. I think you can afford to lose some of it. Maybe consider splashing in a board wipe like Black Sun's Zenith? It's close to your budget range.
Big Sea Creatures:
-Our boy Benthicore is an Elemental, but visually fits right in. Brine Elemental and Tidal Force also fit visually.
-Draining Whelk is an Illusion, but also visually fits in with the fishes, and can do some good in format. Jace's Mindseeker can also be fun and is a Fish Illusion.
-Fleet Swallower can swallow decks. Is big fish. Isleback Spawn can also be fun with him.
-Keiga, the Tide Star is a big dragon, but it's a big sea dragon, so, it could fit!
Not Big Creatures:
-Chasm Skulker makes Squids when you draw cards. Seems pretty fun. Not very synergistic with all the mass bounce though.
-Reef Worm, because there is always a bigger fish.
Cards I Would Cut:
-The non-Sea Monster creatures. As a Vorthos, I see this as the Kiora deck, and Kiora would not summon Verdant Sun's Avatar or Artisan of Kozilek.
-Guard Gomazoa seems meh to me.
-I'm not sold on the idea that 1 mana card draw is worth it in Commander, like Brainstorm or Ponder. If you don't get it first turn it rarely seems worthwhile in the long run. I feel early terms are better spent on ramp, especially artifacts like Sky Diamond and Moss Diamond that aren't being considered yet. If you like the Scry-ness of those cards, and your meta isn't just loaded with board wipes, I'd suggest repeatable and cheap options like Thassa, God of the Sea or the Scryfish himself Sigiled Starfish. Seer's Lantern doubles as mana ramp!
Cards I Would Not Cut:
-Kiora. She's THE Sea Monster Planeswalker! Come one man! She's not the Commander but this is her deck!
-Honestly, I would personally keep things like Elemental Bond over the one mana card draw, going back to my previous thoughts. The Bond in general seems like a safe deal to me, Enchantment removal seems pretty scarce in most Commander metas.
-Mass Bounce. Keep in mind that my local meta is overrun by mass removal. Basically someone wipes the board every other turn after turn 5. Come to think of it that kind of defines a lot of my suggestions, huh? Anyway I'd keep what you have. With more artifact and land ramp bouncing your own stuff won't set you back too bad, and lets you reuse your Coiling Oracle and the like. I'd actually, on that thought, run more etb ramp dudes too, over guys like Sakura Tribe Elder, to capitalize on this. Ondu Giant and Wild Wanderer come to mind. Yavimaya Granger too, but that echo cost is... eh...
This is what leads me to wonder if Tibalt may be involved since possession is within his abilities (his ultimate on his card is Insurrection), and he's an established character we already know.
I really want to see Tibalt laughing off in a corner while his enemies kill each other in the most torturous way. I missed that guy. :'(
But sadly the only clue that connects it to Tibalt is that whatever is "cast" on Avacyn looks like Insurrection. I wish we will see more clues of him, since it would be a great opportunity for him to show up. I know he would not want to miss it.
But sadly there is nothing certain Tibalt is involved in this madness yet. :/
Yeah nothing points to Tibs being the culprit, but he was popular so I'm sure he'll make an appearance in one way or another. I imagine he didn't start this madness, but he's more than happy to take advantage of it to cause some real chaos.
As for the toad... THAT IS THE COOLEST THING I AM 100% BEHIND LEGENDARY MONSTER TOAD
I honestly don't see what the issue would be here... it's only one thread. From what it sounds like there would still be a "normal" spoiler thread. Only one clearly labeled special thread would require the special spoiler tags. So it's not like the entire Storyline Subforum would suddenly become policed for properly tagged spoilers.
I would like to add that I use MTGS almost entirely for this particular Vorthosi community, at this point more that I use it as a card spoiler website. Even if MTGS is a card spoiler site first and foremost, there is a good community here built around something besides the card spoilers: a love of the multiverse and its lore. I feel this will not lessen the dialogue on the "normal" thread at all, and will actually improve the community overall by giving those who are hesitant of massive ending spoilers a more apparent place they can be a part of the discussion. I imagine a lot of us will still just use the spoiler thread, but the option can only help. Really it'll impact you, Jay13x, the most by increasing your workload
Yes, of course. Point is anyone who says the writing and story are so much worse now than earlier are clearly omitting a few choice bad stories. I love how that article mentions Scourge, because that is a good example of how bananas the old stories could get. I mean, J. Robert King was a great writer, top notch, but I dare anyone try to read Scourge and reconcile it with literally every other Magic story written before and since. Really, just read all three of the Onslaught novels, they're all pretty crazy. You probably will be happy you did.
Planeswalkers, as beings partially touched by the Eternities, don't get anything that extreme, but they still can understand virtually all languages equally, as the Spark within them doesn't distinguish.
I already assumed something along these lines, that the Spark itself acts as a kind of intangible Babel Fish that does this sort of thing for them. Only, you know, with the added bonus of not being a gross alien thing that crawls into their ear. Language is actually not the thing that gets me about the Multiverse though. What I'm curious about is the off lack of variety in all these worlds...
With the exception of Lorwyn, they all have humans who are biologically indistinguishable from normal Dominarian humans (I assume even to this day Dominaria is the Multiversal standard). Most of them follow the same natural laws as the others (exception of course given to artificial worlds like Mirrodin, Rath, Serra's Realm, etc), such as reliable day-night cycles, the presence of seasons, climate, etc. Clearly all the ones we see have similar atmospheres and gravity, or it'd mess with the planeswalking visitors. Customs between races on different worlds is always pretty similar too. There's not a group of humans on any plane we've seen that are vastly different culturally from something that exists on Dominaria. With the exception, again, of Lorwyn, the same goes for Elves and Goblins. Most goblins, no matter where you are, are dumb and reckless. Most elves are fair and innately connected to the land.
Going off the rails into mostly entirely baseless speculation (just for a second I promise!), I think its because so many of these worlds were "seeded" by greater forces long before anything in recorded Multiverse history. Why do almost all dragons look like Dominarian dragons? Maybe its because the Elder Dragons are responsible for spreading them all over the multiverse (this, as far as I know, is actually probable given what we know of the Elder Dragons). As to who or what seeded so many planes, and why, is a big but that's my personal theory. Maybe that would even help with the language issue... every language spoken by every human society in the multiverse sounds similar because they all originated from the same core language! Okay I'm done now.
My favorite lore tidbit is an oldie but a goodie: Serra, creator of an entire plane, one of the most powerful oldwalkers we know of, and the oldwalker second only to the man Urza himself in terms of the number of cards named after her, died of a broken heart. Stabbed by a thief, and then refused to use her Godlike powers to save herself because Feroz was dead. The most mono-White of mono-White oldwalkers let herself die in a time where the Phyrexians were still a very real threat to everything and everyone, abandoned who knows how many faithful followers, because she was sad. I want you all to remember this the next time anyone thinks of complaining about how Elspeth died
When it comes down to it, Vorthoses aren't much different than Spikes. People have their preconceptions of what they want and conflate that with what is good.
1. People try to use the "Avengers" thing as an insult, even when WotC openly has referred to that themselves. The whole idea of the Origins 5 is driven by the fact that many people not as invested in the story wanted more connection between the arcs and have characters they could follow. Heavily invested players bemoan the fact that he follow the heroes (planeswalkers), but the first how many years of magic were following Urza and Co. around?
2. For whatever reason, everything about the plane of Zendikar that people loved from the first time around being destroyed by the Eldrazi is somehow invalidated if the Zendikari people achieve a Pyrrhic victory.
3. Magic has really taken a steampunk sort of overall atmosphere for their writing, which is just a decision they've made. A number of people in this sub-forum seem to pine for the standard, yet mediocre medieval writing that most standard fantasy epics use. I personally side with Wizards on this one, but even if you don't, it just seems dumb to complain week after week about that aspect of it.
That's just me though. I think some of the BFZ URs have been pretty bad, but that's not because we're focusing on planeswalkers. It's because the present threat of Eldrazi is a lot less interesting than the looming threat of the Eldrazi is.
I super agree with point one and three in particular here... I'm not convinced Magic Avengers is a bad thing, and I've never complained about the change in writing atmosphere. A lot of people in this thread have talked about expectations and preference, and that really is what it comes down to. Most of the people on the forum just have different personal preferences as to what they believe constitutes a good story, and that's fine. Though, going back to the OP's original point, even I have to admit I've found myself wanting to comment less and less here due to the attitude of some of the people here.
I will admit that the writing hasn't been exactly great for every story in BFZ, but as for the story itself? I think it's fine, and I for one will be staying with it. I'd even say I'm eager to see where they're taking this, in terms of what it means to defeat the Eldrazi. I also like the idea of consistent characters and overarching narrative, I think it's more like the "good old days" than people give it credit for.
Yeah, I'm in the "Kamigawa was awesome and I'd love to see it again" camp, but this realistically doesn't mean anything. They give us Kamigawa fans little things in Supplemental products every now and then, and that's probably all this is.
Anya seems very Nordic, she even looks like a Valkyrie. Ezuri looks completely ridiculous, compare him to the original and you will see what I mean. Don't you think the feather on Anya's art looks like the feather floating in the shadows over innastrad teaser?
I could get behind a Valkyrie taking the spot of what should have been Feather. It looks like we'll get full stories, or at least flavor overviews, of these guys. It would be really cool if she gets to act as a kind of early glimpse of the Norse plane, which is on the "short list" of places to go someday. Kaldheim or Valla maybe?
Ezuri is silly looking, but I agree with Jay13x it's amazingly silly! As for him being GU instead of BG, maybe it was Jin that got him and experimented on him, turning him into this?
Jace is certainly involved as ONE of the main characters for the block, but not the only one. And he's wearing something besides his standard pajamas-and-cloak getup for the first time since he left Vryn, apparently. I think it's a good look for him.
I do have to admit, he does look pretty good. Though part of that is because I already really liked Innistrad aesthetics. The Gothic fashion is a good one. Though I'm also in the minority here that doesn't hate Jace.
Maybe they're actually weaving these stories for reals!
Jace is gonna be sent by Ugin to find Sorin after Oath to Gatewatch!
Maybe it's just SOI that Jace is gonna be in and Tamiyo is gonna be on the second set!
*puts any form of anticipation for this set to hibernation*
Puts on +2 rose goggles of naivete: "Maybe they're saving Tamiyo because they've decided to give Kamigawa another chance somewhere down the road!"
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
Very disappointed at the lack of Feather as the RW Angel this year. It wouldn't have even been hard to make that accommodation. At least there's a nod to Kamigawa! I will take any acknowledgement that Kamigawa still exists and hasn't been relegated forever to the sad dustbin of "unpopular" planes... (I'll never forget you, Mercadia...)
I certainly think it's fair to speculate that the moon has a secret and will be a major part of SOI's story. The trailer we've seen features it prominently in the background as the feather changes and the gravestone/monument of Avacyn's collar are warped. They also made it a point to specifically cover the moon and its relation to the plane in the Planeswalker's Guide last time we saw Innistrad, and generally creative doesn't spend that much time on something like a moon unless it is actually important. Also in the most recent art on the main page at Wizards of Jace and the ghostly face behind him, I can't help but wonder if that face is purposefully in the spot where the large, glowy moon would be. Not saying that face is the moon, but perhaps its supposed to be evocative of Innistrad's moon? If that choice was intentional, then maybe it does hint that there is something trapped on Innistrad's moon...
Of course, it's also possible I'm reading too much into it and the moon is only prominent in the trailer because it looks pretty and atmospheric and nothing more.
Hmmn, did Yeva ever feature in a UR? Because at least Krenko and Odric has, that could at least have some merit to a possible return for Odric in some capacity if ever.
Come to think of it I'm not sure she did... Odric, Krenko and Talrand all did but I can't remember the other two. And also I take back my previous claim, Krenko actually has been mentioned in Ravnica-based stories since his debut, he's in a Goblin mob war that Gideon has been dealing with. Which is good news for Odric! Odric 2.0 for Shadows Over Innistrad!
It also doesn't seem possible that Avacyn could be merely a few hundred years old simply because of what we've seen of Innistrad's ecosystem. Without Avacyn humanity was on the road to extinction within a matter of months. There's no way Innistrad somehow went thousands of years without Avacyn to keep the balance.
Honestly its more likely that Sorin is secretly Avacyn.
This is my new favorite theory. You get an upvote, sir, for honestly making me laugh. Just the image of Sorin in drag trying to pass as a sexy angel... I probably find this more funny than I should...
-No Swarmyard in an Insect Tribal deck makes me a sad man.
-Brass Herald. Calling all bugs!
-Infested Roothold. Most players will be playing artifacts to make this worthwhile, maybe. Maybe.
-Alpha Status, though not a great option without Hexproof guys. Pennon Blade if you're going to have token swarms going on may be the more reliable option. Either option can help you beef up the Commander and fly for the throat of another player.
-Thriss, Nantuko Primus. Helps you fall back on the "make something real big" strategy.
-I don't like one-time use card draw like Altar's Reap. Honestly I'd substitute it for something repeatable like Carnage Altar.
- On a budget I'm a fan of the Diamonds, like Moss Diamond, as the second to the Signets. Also why not Gruul Signet?
Cut Suggestions:
-Mortician Beetle. Stuff that only exists to be a big dork I don't find to be worth it.
-Giant Solifuge. The Shroud helps, but... at the end of the day thanks to that Shroud it's really just a 4/1 bug which isn't a huge benefit in Commander. Especially since the deck seems to want to make swarms and then eat them.
-You have a lot of spot removal, and a lot of artifact and enchantment removal as well. I think you can afford to lose some of it. Maybe consider splashing in a board wipe like Black Sun's Zenith? It's close to your budget range.
Big Sea Creatures:
-Our boy Benthicore is an Elemental, but visually fits right in. Brine Elemental and Tidal Force also fit visually.
-Draining Whelk is an Illusion, but also visually fits in with the fishes, and can do some good in format. Jace's Mindseeker can also be fun and is a Fish Illusion.
-Fleet Swallower can swallow decks. Is big fish. Isleback Spawn can also be fun with him.
-Keiga, the Tide Star is a big dragon, but it's a big sea dragon, so, it could fit!
Not Big Creatures:
-Chasm Skulker makes Squids when you draw cards. Seems pretty fun. Not very synergistic with all the mass bounce though.
-Reef Worm, because there is always a bigger fish.
Ramp Stuff:
-Bounty of the Luxa. Flooding is good. Enchantments have more staying power than creatures.
-Kiora, Master of the Depths, because why not both Kioras?
Cards I Would Cut:
-The non-Sea Monster creatures. As a Vorthos, I see this as the Kiora deck, and Kiora would not summon Verdant Sun's Avatar or Artisan of Kozilek.
-Guard Gomazoa seems meh to me.
-I'm not sold on the idea that 1 mana card draw is worth it in Commander, like Brainstorm or Ponder. If you don't get it first turn it rarely seems worthwhile in the long run. I feel early terms are better spent on ramp, especially artifacts like Sky Diamond and Moss Diamond that aren't being considered yet. If you like the Scry-ness of those cards, and your meta isn't just loaded with board wipes, I'd suggest repeatable and cheap options like Thassa, God of the Sea or the Scryfish himself Sigiled Starfish. Seer's Lantern doubles as mana ramp!
Cards I Would Not Cut:
-Kiora. She's THE Sea Monster Planeswalker! Come one man! She's not the Commander but this is her deck!
-Honestly, I would personally keep things like Elemental Bond over the one mana card draw, going back to my previous thoughts. The Bond in general seems like a safe deal to me, Enchantment removal seems pretty scarce in most Commander metas.
-Mass Bounce. Keep in mind that my local meta is overrun by mass removal. Basically someone wipes the board every other turn after turn 5. Come to think of it that kind of defines a lot of my suggestions, huh?
Yeah nothing points to Tibs being the culprit, but he was popular so I'm sure he'll make an appearance in one way or another. I imagine he didn't start this madness, but he's more than happy to take advantage of it to cause some real chaos.
As for the toad... THAT IS THE COOLEST THING I AM 100% BEHIND LEGENDARY MONSTER TOAD
I would like to add that I use MTGS almost entirely for this particular Vorthosi community, at this point more that I use it as a card spoiler website. Even if MTGS is a card spoiler site first and foremost, there is a good community here built around something besides the card spoilers: a love of the multiverse and its lore. I feel this will not lessen the dialogue on the "normal" thread at all, and will actually improve the community overall by giving those who are hesitant of massive ending spoilers a more apparent place they can be a part of the discussion. I imagine a lot of us will still just use the spoiler thread, but the option can only help. Really it'll impact you, Jay13x, the most by increasing your workload
Yes, of course. Point is anyone who says the writing and story are so much worse now than earlier are clearly omitting a few choice bad stories. I love how that article mentions Scourge, because that is a good example of how bananas the old stories could get. I mean, J. Robert King was a great writer, top notch, but I dare anyone try to read Scourge and reconcile it with literally every other Magic story written before and since. Really, just read all three of the Onslaught novels, they're all pretty crazy. You probably will be happy you did.
I already assumed something along these lines, that the Spark itself acts as a kind of intangible Babel Fish that does this sort of thing for them. Only, you know, with the added bonus of not being a gross alien thing that crawls into their ear. Language is actually not the thing that gets me about the Multiverse though. What I'm curious about is the off lack of variety in all these worlds...
With the exception of Lorwyn, they all have humans who are biologically indistinguishable from normal Dominarian humans (I assume even to this day Dominaria is the Multiversal standard). Most of them follow the same natural laws as the others (exception of course given to artificial worlds like Mirrodin, Rath, Serra's Realm, etc), such as reliable day-night cycles, the presence of seasons, climate, etc. Clearly all the ones we see have similar atmospheres and gravity, or it'd mess with the planeswalking visitors. Customs between races on different worlds is always pretty similar too. There's not a group of humans on any plane we've seen that are vastly different culturally from something that exists on Dominaria. With the exception, again, of Lorwyn, the same goes for Elves and Goblins. Most goblins, no matter where you are, are dumb and reckless. Most elves are fair and innately connected to the land.
Going off the rails into mostly entirely baseless speculation (just for a second I promise!), I think its because so many of these worlds were "seeded" by greater forces long before anything in recorded Multiverse history. Why do almost all dragons look like Dominarian dragons? Maybe its because the Elder Dragons are responsible for spreading them all over the multiverse (this, as far as I know, is actually probable given what we know of the Elder Dragons). As to who or what seeded so many planes, and why, is a big
I super agree with point one and three in particular here... I'm not convinced Magic Avengers is a bad thing, and I've never complained about the change in writing atmosphere. A lot of people in this thread have talked about expectations and preference, and that really is what it comes down to. Most of the people on the forum just have different personal preferences as to what they believe constitutes a good story, and that's fine. Though, going back to the OP's original point, even I have to admit I've found myself wanting to comment less and less here due to the attitude of some of the people here.
I will admit that the writing hasn't been exactly great for every story in BFZ, but as for the story itself? I think it's fine, and I for one will be staying with it. I'd even say I'm eager to see where they're taking this, in terms of what it means to defeat the Eldrazi. I also like the idea of consistent characters and overarching narrative, I think it's more like the "good old days" than people give it credit for.
I could get behind a Valkyrie taking the spot of what should have been Feather. It looks like we'll get full stories, or at least flavor overviews, of these guys. It would be really cool if she gets to act as a kind of early glimpse of the Norse plane, which is on the "short list" of places to go someday. Kaldheim or Valla maybe?
Ezuri is silly looking, but I agree with Jay13x it's amazingly silly! As for him being GU instead of BG, maybe it was Jin that got him and experimented on him, turning him into this?
I do have to admit, he does look pretty good. Though part of that is because I already really liked Innistrad aesthetics. The Gothic fashion is a good one. Though I'm also in the minority here that doesn't hate Jace.
Puts on +2 rose goggles of naivete: "Maybe they're saving Tamiyo because they've decided to give Kamigawa another chance somewhere down the road!"
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
Of course, it's also possible I'm reading too much into it and the moon is only prominent in the trailer because it looks pretty and atmospheric and nothing more.
Come to think of it I'm not sure she did... Odric, Krenko and Talrand all did but I can't remember the other two. And also I take back my previous claim, Krenko actually has been mentioned in Ravnica-based stories since his debut, he's in a Goblin mob war that Gideon has been dealing with. Which is good news for Odric! Odric 2.0 for Shadows Over Innistrad!
This is my new favorite theory. You get an upvote, sir, for honestly making me laugh. Just the image of Sorin in drag trying to pass as a sexy angel... I probably find this more funny than I should...