I am really confused at how to sideboard for this matchup. Some people side out thoughtseize while others do not. LSV brings in negates and dislikes last breath in the matchup. How good are dimir charms in sideboard games agai st monoblack should I take out thoughtsieze and bring in negate?
The reason a lot of winning decklists dropped aetherling was due to aggro matches. The thing about Elspeth is that she a wincon that also helps you stailize against creature decks while being ok against control.
Elixir is a great bullet for the deck. It makes sure the deck has time play its power cards to get you to a point in the game where you cannot lose. The other benefit to elixir is that after stabilizing with Verdict plus 5 life to get you out of burn range is better than spot removal because at that point you will die to reach not a creature. The insurance of not getting burned out also means that you can tapout for a wincon or Jace aot without fear of getting burned out. Its not too great against aggro but its not dead while also helping you fight thoughtseize decks and the mirror.
What do you guys think about the mono black match up? It seems favorable game 1, but very unfavorable games 2-3. I think Owen Turtenwald created a great strategy against the control decks by lowering his curve with lifebane zombie. And now he has the full 4 duress in the board (from Open this weekend). As more and more people adopt his strategy and decklist, I think UW is poorly positioned on mtgo.
I'm even playing 4 negates in my board and it's still a very rough match up. Is there anyway to improve it? I thought negate was the answer, but I still continually lose to mono black.
Against monoblack you want less reactive answers. In other words you want less counter spells and more removal/wincons to have more powerful topdecks. Pithing needle dsphere and Last Breath are the best cards in uw against them.
Sin collector can be great against b/g, snags their decay/charm and trades with mutavault. If your meta is low on aggro you can cut dissolves for divination or pilfered plans, don't play the discard game w/ them, they're just better at it. Dimir charm is nice in that it can protect you from mortars or thoughtseize before you fire of revelation as well as dig for an answer pretty deep as a top deck.
This. You want your top devks to beat them. Keep in as many haymakers as you can and as many 2 for 1s as possible. Divination is excellent against all the discard based midrange decks such as jund bg and minoblack.
Instead of sideboard suggestions I would like to further encourage running at least 2 Blood Barons main. It's only a bad card in match ups where we already have the advantage, and in any bad match up for Esper (black devotion, golgari, the mirror) the Baron does a ton of work.
That was true like a couple weeks ago. Now monoblack answers Blood Baron easier than anyone else and can sometimes race him. Baron is still good though since he is the best wincon against aggro.
The matchup is close but favorable. Our late game cards take over usually we just have to make sure to not let them get out lf hand early. Monoblack has this modern Jund or Fae feel where they just have thoughtseize plus a cheap threat that wins games and you take too long to topdeck an answer in time. In all cases except the one mentioned esper is favored.
Yup the mana cost kills this card since esper is base uw with black as support. I can see it being a 1 of in a world full of rakdos return. As of now I believe lLast Breath is better since its easier to cast and also exiles. Exiling is really good to deal with Chandra's Phoenix and prevent Gary from being whipped back into play.
So, I think this discussion is really interesting, in terms of bringing new ideas to the table to be discussed.
Shrivel actually surprised as I hadn't considered the card at all, and it may have it's uses, although I think it's a bit too narrow as most aggro decks also pack 1 and 2 cmc drops that have 2 resistance. Also, if you're packing SotP on the sideboard as well, you really don't want to rely on -1-1 to all creatures as sorcery removal, since it will also kill your own blockers. If it were an instant, it would be that much better, as it could complement SotP to remove creatures with up to 3 resistance. As it stands, I don't like it all that much.
SotP I think is a really really good card against aggro, and I've recently started using 3 in the SB. Initially I didn't really like him, and I still don't like him all that much against control as proposed by some players (I pack 3 in the SB and don't think I'll consider siding it in against control), but I've realized from testing that against aggro he's just that good. An opening hand with 1 or more almost effectively guarantees that you'll be able to stabilize the board.
I've been testing 2 fiendslayer paladins on the SB as well. They're extremely good against basically any aggro deck I can think of. They are a wall that stops most of their creatures, can't be dealt with as they usually only pack R spot removal and can also go on the aggressive, netting you life gain, if you've managed to clear the field before dropping him.
Yes it is narrow only deck it shuts down is white weenie since it kills almost all their creatures. I was suggesting it ove profit//loss since the effect is better turn 2 than turn 3 but I would not run neither.
Sotp is the best all around hyper aggro hate across the board and shuts down the hands that gives us the most problems which are rakdos cackler and burning tree starts. I like fiendslayer after a supreme verdict but blood baron does the same thing but better after verdict.
A card I have been really been liking against aggro as a 2 of is Sin Collector. He sets up Verdict nicely by ripping Boros Charm or a burn spells from non white aggro while saving you a few points of damage.
I've been running Profit // Loss in the SB to great effect, I like the ability to pump BBoV or Elspeth tokens occasionally and being able to cast at instant speed.
If Loss was 2cc this card would be amazing. I been running Shrivel in my sideboard for some time. It is amazing against Boros and good agaisnt sligh rdw and ok against rakdos. You really want the -1/-1 effect by turn two against must decks since aggros turn 3 attack is what puts you in the danger zone. The only time Shrivel has not performed is against cackler into burning tree emmissary hands but those are just nut hands that our deck just won't ever beat.
I think spheres, pithing needle, and counters spells are enough to stall their card advantage engines. The main focus should be on pushing blood baron through and not getting blown out by Devour Flesh.
This card is amazing but with the many variants of hyper aggro running around do you guys think it might be too slow? I seen many high level players cutting this card down to 1 in their lists.
It is great in this type of deck I would even think of running 4. Junk has fatties to clog up the board against aggro. Thoughseize will allow your threats to stick against control as well.
Just because a card is good does not make it a 4 of in all decks with access to the card. Thoughtseize is the most powerful card in standard and will almost be a 4 of all black midrange decks but not control decks.
The reason thoughtseize isonly a 2 of or sideboard card in control decks is because its a proactive card. It does safe you from taking damage or timewalks your opponents like removal or counters do eslecially against linear decks. What thoughtseize does do is break up syrgenies and answers answers. The reason why thoughtseize was such a house in fae is the fact they had very powerful cheap threats that just say I win like bitterblosom. Thoughtseize turn 1 into bitterblosom was a good play because you made sure blossom will get through next turn.
Take a look at another deck that had access to black mana at that time but rarely ran thoughtseize or just ran 2 was 5 color control. Why was this deck that had acces to black not playing this powerful card? Its due to the fact that it did not do what control wants which is to undo an opponents turn or gain card advantage. Only time you would want thoughtseize in 5cc was when you wanted to push your cruel ultimatum or broodmate dragon through answers.
Thoughtseize is a really proactive card which makes decks with cheap threats or engines such as bitterblossom, goyf, underworld connections, and bob go uncontested for a few turns leading to a win. In control you never want thoughtseize early most times and should be used when you finally do become proactive like wanting to cast aetherling. Thkughtseize is like kicking someone in the testicles which is a great move but should be followed up with a haymaker to the face.
There can be merit to being more draw go but I feel it will be missing the I stant speed draw early game. 4. Supreme Verdict will be necessary even in a draw go style deck imo. Personally if I would go this route the first things I would cut are some wincons for more reactive cards or draw spells. The next thing to cut would be dspheres for some more instant speed answers. The answers to add would most likely be things such as extra downfalls and or syncopate which act similarly to dsphere as being almost a catch all. Inspiation might be a consideration though its weak it makes your counters much stronger by allowing you have the option to draw if nothing needs to be answered that turn.
I like draw go its my favorite type of deck. Unfortunately it just seems like the tapout options just seem more versitile and mana effecient at the moment. If we can make draw go work I will be riding that train all day.
Elixir is a great bullet for the deck. It makes sure the deck has time play its power cards to get you to a point in the game where you cannot lose. The other benefit to elixir is that after stabilizing with Verdict plus 5 life to get you out of burn range is better than spot removal because at that point you will die to reach not a creature. The insurance of not getting burned out also means that you can tapout for a wincon or Jace aot without fear of getting burned out. Its not too great against aggro but its not dead while also helping you fight thoughtseize decks and the mirror.
Against monoblack you want less reactive answers. In other words you want less counter spells and more removal/wincons to have more powerful topdecks. Pithing needle dsphere and Last Breath are the best cards in uw against them.
This. You want your top devks to beat them. Keep in as many haymakers as you can and as many 2 for 1s as possible. Divination is excellent against all the discard based midrange decks such as jund bg and minoblack.
That was true like a couple weeks ago. Now monoblack answers Blood Baron easier than anyone else and can sometimes race him. Baron is still good though since he is the best wincon against aggro.
Yes it is narrow only deck it shuts down is white weenie since it kills almost all their creatures. I was suggesting it ove profit//loss since the effect is better turn 2 than turn 3 but I would not run neither.
Sotp is the best all around hyper aggro hate across the board and shuts down the hands that gives us the most problems which are rakdos cackler and burning tree starts. I like fiendslayer after a supreme verdict but blood baron does the same thing but better after verdict.
A card I have been really been liking against aggro as a 2 of is Sin Collector. He sets up Verdict nicely by ripping Boros Charm or a burn spells from non white aggro while saving you a few points of damage.
If Loss was 2cc this card would be amazing. I been running Shrivel in my sideboard for some time. It is amazing against Boros and good agaisnt sligh rdw and ok against rakdos. You really want the -1/-1 effect by turn two against must decks since aggros turn 3 attack is what puts you in the danger zone. The only time Shrivel has not performed is against cackler into burning tree emmissary hands but those are just nut hands that our deck just won't ever beat.
This card is amazing but with the many variants of hyper aggro running around do you guys think it might be too slow? I seen many high level players cutting this card down to 1 in their lists.
The reason thoughtseize isonly a 2 of or sideboard card in control decks is because its a proactive card. It does safe you from taking damage or timewalks your opponents like removal or counters do eslecially against linear decks. What thoughtseize does do is break up syrgenies and answers answers. The reason why thoughtseize was such a house in fae is the fact they had very powerful cheap threats that just say I win like bitterblosom. Thoughtseize turn 1 into bitterblosom was a good play because you made sure blossom will get through next turn.
Take a look at another deck that had access to black mana at that time but rarely ran thoughtseize or just ran 2 was 5 color control. Why was this deck that had acces to black not playing this powerful card? Its due to the fact that it did not do what control wants which is to undo an opponents turn or gain card advantage. Only time you would want thoughtseize in 5cc was when you wanted to push your cruel ultimatum or broodmate dragon through answers.
Thoughtseize is a really proactive card which makes decks with cheap threats or engines such as bitterblossom, goyf, underworld connections, and bob go uncontested for a few turns leading to a win. In control you never want thoughtseize early most times and should be used when you finally do become proactive like wanting to cast aetherling. Thkughtseize is like kicking someone in the testicles which is a great move but should be followed up with a haymaker to the face.
I like draw go its my favorite type of deck. Unfortunately it just seems like the tapout options just seem more versitile and mana effecient at the moment. If we can make draw go work I will be riding that train all day.