I'm a little shocked how well it's been doing, I always saw this as a tier 2 barely clinging to that.
It's good, but it hasn't yelled, "ban this deck!" to me despite it's results
It makes sense when you consider what has been banned it makes perfect sense. Slower more resilient combo is good against the kind of decks that are currently popular such as eldrazi. Ad Nauseam is weak to interaction plus a clock such as dsa, jeskai copycat,and delver varients.
Basically it is good because if you are relying on tks as your only meaningful interaction you will not have a good time.
Remember when some players had fits about Dredge and Infect eating bans and now decks like Ad Naseum, Living End and Skred Red can perform well in tournaments? Interesting
Ad Nauseam is what I would consider the appropriate level for a combo deck. It is only slower side while still punishing punishing things like tron and decks that do not want to interact.
real issue is half the people here/wotc/pros can't evaluate cards correctly. We have people all over the place already over in the voting thread. Wotc needs a team that actually looks at these treads tests things and gives feedback/discussion with the community. A collective group that just wants to give real feedback and not just a crazy opinion based on how people see games going in their heads.
Actually, banning cards is rather easy. Just ban every card that has the ability to keep getting better as more stuff is printed and you basically fix the format. There were just so many mechanics printed in the past where designers of the time just didn't account for the machinations of todays designs. Eye of Ugin was a ticking time bomb, fetchlands were seemingly harmless when printed since the only real contender of abuse was Tarmogoyf, but now we have Dredge, Delirium, Revolt, and all sorts of mechanics that take advantage of the free sacrifice outlet. Birthing Pod is an even better example of a card design that would break eventually as it let you toolbox out any creature with an ETB. Right now I think that Paradox Engine, Saheeli Rai, and Panharmonicon are going to be future issues along with potentially Aetherworks Marvel if players really start brewing with energy and another card like it is printed.
But that brings up the other point that it isn't always the right time to ban a card. Tarmo is getting close to the point of being ban worthy, but should we just ban every potentially game breaking card in standard from modern pre-emptively? And then the opposite direction of unbanning a card: Is it okay to unban a card because it isn't broken now, just to ban it later when an idiot designer makes a mistake card? What makes modern annoying to get into is that players buy into a very expensive set of cards and having a ban happen can rapidly devalue the cards unless they see eternal play.
This is true. I have been a part of many gaming communities tbat are very competitive and read posts and articlds on game design and many game developers have stated that nerfs and bans are much easier to do and predict. The problem with magic is that you cannot edit a card you just have to axe the card entirely which causes financial backlash to players. I see why they ban more than jnban but with that said if better checks and balances were kn par with how degenerate the proactive cards are then maybe some loose cannons can be left alone even if they are unfair.
Yeah, what people are going to find I predict, is that without a board state already applying pressure, unless the Control player is already firmly in command somehow, Jace is going to do nothing if cast early in the game.
Nahiri works better when you are already pressuring, at which point, its a 'how do I want to lose the game, via beats, snap bolts, or Emy in 2 turns?'
Jace may be good, but I really really dont think its anything but a powerful card that gives U a finisher card. Its not an instant win, its not even a fast win, so unless you are already in a state of losing the game, I dont see Jace as what swings the match.
the thing is, what makes blue better in "this meta" thats where blue needs help. and if cards as powerful as jace arent enough, maybe this meta is the problem? maybe reactive control cannot be good in such a place as modern.
Its not good in other eternal formats either. Every sucessful control deck in vintage or legacy has some element of an unfair wincon or unfair lock. You just need to do something powerful that can steal games in eternal formats. Bgx has that with thoughtseize into goyf and deaths shadow which nesh well with discard. Countermagic and removal decks prefer combos or locks to mesh well with their form of disruption.
His argument that midrange will just adapt by playing Dreadbore or holding back burn shows his dishonest intentions. Any smart player would immediately fate seal to get Jace outside of Lightning Bolt range and combined usages of fate seal and brainstorm make it difficult for the opposing midrange player to find answers while they find protection.
I don't think the GBx midrange decks would especially care about Jace. He goes into decks that currently make up about 4% of the meta. Even if those decks surge in popularity, let's say up to 8%, they are already bad matchups for GBx, and Jace just makes them worse. Would GBx really go out of their way to warp their decks around a card played in 8% of decks in the meta that were already bad matchups anyway? Maybe they want to up their Dreadbores or Maelstrom Pulses, but I would guess they would be better served focusing on beating the aggro and combo decks than worrying about the 5% difference adding Jace to blue control decks does to that matchup.
Quote from Shaheen Soorani »
After the first few weeks of a Jace, the Mind Sculptor Modern, you would see it tossed into the sideboard of blue combo decks and Grixis Control as well as become the flagship win condition for people like me. The win percentage against combo/big mana decks will increase drastically, but still not make us a favorite. That eager G/B Tron player will still slam a turn 3 Karn Liberated against us and then follow up with an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. No planeswalker past, present, or future would save us from a fate like that.
It would give us a chance to win those games against weaker starts; help us overcome a prison lock from Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, or a collection of silly artifacts; or even provide us enough disruption fuel to get through a few Pact of Negations defending an Ad Nauseam on the stack. Would it make control dominate Modern? Absolutely not, but the unbanning would bring balance back to the metagame. This discussion has nothing to do with making control great again and everything to do with making Modern great for the first time. Control provides an essential check on linear aggressive decks, but it can't fulfill that role when having a 20% win rate against combo/big mana variants.
This was a part of Shaheen's article that caught my interest. If Jace does improve the big mana matchup, as some of us have theorized, then I think he's a good unban. Part of the problem with these decks is that their bad matchups are far too bad. I think that ideally we wouldn't want any matchups that are worse than 40/60 across the format, so whatever we can do to get closer to that is a good thing.
Jace only beats the hands that tron should have mulled. Even legacymiracles is a huge dog to big mana strats bjt it makes up for that for crushing midrange and aggro. I think jace will just solidfy blues good matchups which are just too close for them being its best match ups.
Why don't we just post a twitter*****storm asking Wizards to justify each card on the modern banned list? At least we could get a few good answers and no crappy announcement come Monday.
What makes you think that they care in the first place?
They already said they don't even test cards for the format, the support for the format is declining, the interest in the format is declining, everything is building up for the moment where they just create some new format and completely ditch Modern
Not sure why you would post blatant falsehoods?
Support? Modern Masters is support. As are GP's.
Interest? Its the most viewed format, in head to head with Standard, Modern pulls more viewers.
Ditch Modern? I guess if they dont like money.
I dont understand why people try and make misleading statements, we already have one token user who does it all the time, do we need 2?
I agree. The idea that modern is remotely dying right now is just not realistic. Hell even former big names that disliked the format seem to like it more now.
Tiers are a bit of an oddball subject as to get to tier 1 or 2 requires tournament results. To get results, the deck needs to be played. To be played the deck needs to be popular, but at the same time the tier of a deck drives it's popularity.
So even if a deck is good and can make results, it still may not be tier one.
The opposite can be true also. There were metagames when bgx were bad choices as many pros admittig to those decks being more popular than they should be. Jund and junk were tier 1 in some metas for loger than they should have been just due to popularity alone when better choices were in the sidelines. Even decks that were actively good in certain metas were underpresented. We seen this with twin when it massively dropped in numbers despite being a really good choice. Once twin was played again it started doing really well before its eventual ban.
I mean, yes, once again, blue needs the power level of its top cards improved, mainly in the departments that define the color.
BUT saying control doesn't exist in Modern is just false. It's delirium. Come on. Whoever said people are too weak-hearted, yes. Play and refine decks, jesus. This DS deck was invented by some random dude for no reason, he just created it out of nowhere, wasn't there before. I, myself, well, wasn't the original creation for the ages, but people laughed for some days at me playing Thing in the Ice in a Battle Rage deck, and then the deck was bordering tier 1 online for months.
What I mean is not everything is invented. And same as DS wasn't invented until some dude did, the best control list might still be unknown. I was talking to the guy that passed me the Uw list I used as core for this janky thing I'm playing, and he literally said "it's a moneymaker". He's crushing the leagues. But people will do like I used to do, see him posting a 5-0 and disregard it because well, bad decks post 5-0s all the time. Just like people disregarded the DS deck until a group of 3-4 guys took it seriously, started crushing with it and put Sam Black on it for all to see.
This is not your typical brewer's fantasy of thinking you can just create a marvel by playing with all kinds of jank. But decks just have to be refined, and at times they will fly under the radar for a long time.
I feel the same at times also. I currently have the nagging feeling that people arecsleeping on saheeli. People keep saying the deck is bad but from experience and watching others the deck seems like it has something going for it. An optimal list just needs to come up I feel.
The lack of draw go control is more glaring in modern because its the only archetype that is missing.
Jace is basically the only thing on the banlist that can help, if that is the problem you are trying to solve.
Preordain would not be used for control... It would be in allll the blue combo decks and then maybe some control decks.. it improves the combo decks more than it improves the control deck. It is a terrible idea to unban it.
Stoneforge, BBE and Twin are just upgrades for archetypes that still exist.
herp derp lightning bolt, the jace player will tick up if they think you might have bolt. Brainstorm gain three life is still great in any case.
Herp derp what if they don't have a fetch?.. They will be Jace decks... build around shuffling your own library just like it was the case in Cawblade.
I would worry the format would just speed up too much to try to get under jace and anything slow becomes a jace deck. Unless you have a low cost hero's downfall available to quickly reply to a jace.
Jace is still too strong on its own.
Stoneforge I don't think is too strong, if it weren't for Batterskull.
BBE I think is fine but has issues with cards now in the format like AV and K-command
Twin I don't think is too strong as much as creating a deck coming at you at so many angles. I personally enjoyed the challange but it was basically immune to meta changes.
Anything slow becoming a jace deck will never happen with karn and giant eldrazi creatures in modern.
It's an Uw list the kind that plays a few creatures (walls, finks, angel). The creature suite is not something I like too much, so I'm trying some other angles. But anyway the guy has amazing results, and most importantly, vs Control's traditional bad matchups. 3 Spreading Seas, 2 GQ, 2 Edge help there.
EDIT: this was a reply to the person who asked what kind of UW list I was talking about
I think a lot of it has to do with seas and tec edge. I have a positive matchup against those decks also with jeskai saheeli just because of the combination of land disruption and proactivity is good against the meta in general atm.
Oh, it's just you guys, you're not on Corys level, it's why you think blue's bad
"I never said Grixis was good"
So which one is it?
Grixis colors have been the only semi competitive blue control decks and you don't think it's good?
Well, Esper, Jeskai and Sultai aren't getting better, so then you need to agree blue is deeply flawed and poor on a competitive level, to the point it can't be ignored or delayed much longer.
Decks, and things in life, can be not bad without being good. I don't see the conflict. Hatebears is bad. Death's Shadow is good. There are lots of decks in between.
But in any case, I wasn't talking about Grixis. Grixis is firmly, actively bad. Garbage. It's just the one that pops to mind because a random pro plays that one and then that turns it into the most played control deck because a lot of people pick it up despite it sucking.
I wouldn't touch Grixis with a 10-feet pole for a tournament, ever, it has losing matchups vs half the top10 decks in Modern. Something that doesn't happen with, for example, UW Control. And I'm not making things up here, I have seen data on this.
I have seen, for example, real, reliable data from someone I know, that says he's favored vs Valakut decks, Eldrazi Tron and Bant Eldrazi with UW Control, and only slightly unfavored vs Tron. But this is a good player, with a perfectly tuned list he's been working on hard for some time. He doesn't spend any time crying. And if you are going to call BS, I will tell you I called BS publicly on him, on stream, made him analyze his game folder right there and post the winrates for all to see. And then I had to apologize to him.
In my opinion, Grixis isn't any better than Jeskai at all, and Esper is better. And then, UW is better than those others.
But then, talking about control as a whole, which is what I was doing, some players have success with it, even with the most crappy flavors of the lot.
Finally, I'm getting tired of the misrepresentations of what I say by some people here. There's no need for that. You can just copy/paste what I said, so you save me from having to explain that wasn't actually what I said.
I am curious to what this uw list looks like. Is it like the one from worlds 2015 or some other concotion? Is it a tapout control deck?
I guess for the latter two Mana Leak would be basically the same? V Bant Eldrazi it counters TKS/Smasher unless they have 7-8 mana meaning they are pretty flooded
Mana Leak might be "basically the same" against Dredge and Eldrazi, but a key point is that Mana Leak's mediocrity against a lot of other decks is why so many decks aren't running the full set; some decks only run 1 or 2. When you're running more copies you have a better shot at having the answer to the card that's being cast.
and vs Valakut/Scape it counters both relevant spells unless they have 7-9 mana in which case an active Valakut will start making all topdecks live draws.
What do you mean "unless they have 7-9 mana"? To combo off with Scapeshift, you have to have 7-9 mana, that's how the combo works, you get 7+ lands in play and then cast Scapeshift. The card is inherently invulnerable to Mana Leak. Primeval Titan is more vulnerable but again the deck has sufficient ramp to be able to cast even that through a Mana Leak. And again, as noted, Counterspell is better so you can play the full set whereas Mana Leak, being more narrow, isn't generally something to be played as a 4-of.
You mention an active Valakut will make topdecks live draws, but that ignores a number of things. That's a fairly slow way to go about beating someone but it's also worth noting that, Primeval Titan and Scapeshift aside, the deck runs zero tutors for Valakut so they have to just hope to draw enough of them naturally.
Heh, control decks are the epitome of "a fairly slow way to go about beating someone", making land drops + play ramp spells is basically what the deck does, if you get cheeky and try to counter too much ramp you might let a Titan or a Pact through. I guess you haven't played this MU too often if you've never died to Valakut + land drops.
You mentioned the "he has to hope and draw X" argument for both Valakut and Cavern of Souls (for Bant Eldrazi), I can also say "you have to hope and draw Counterspell".. Bant Eldrazi has Stirrings as a tutor for Cavern and Valakut spends the time thinning the deck with fetches and tutors so the likelyhood, if not higher, is at least the same.
You could always take a page out of the current best standard deck for that turn 4 way to close out games
What way does BG Constrictor have to win on turn 4?
I personally don't play Standard but still enjoy reading and occasionally watching tournaments, and from most of the recent articles it seems as though 4-c Saheeli is currently considered the top dog?
Edit: This whole Counterspell argument is completely unnecessary to be honest, since Ian Duke talked about counters recently (iirc in the pro tour broadcast) and basically said that 3cc is as low as they'll go with unconditional counters.
Most pros believe 4c sheeli is above the other decks in standard but the numbers do not show it yet.
I think modern is a similar place. Deaths shadow seems to be miles above everything like vehicles did in standard pt but the pt did not actually solve the format. I do not think modern is solved either and decks that are more complicated to find the right build or shell take time. Look at twin. It was first way more all in on the combo before it eventually evolved into a tempo/control deck with a combo finish. I think more decks will show up in the post probe troll ban modern if they do not ban or unban anything.
But seriously tell me, what do you blue reactive players even want?
I'd be fairly satisfied with a Counterspell reprint, personally.
A way to close out the game on turn 4, 5, or 6 at the latest. Do it an instant speed for bonus points.
You could always take a page out of the current best standard deck for that turn 4 way to close out games
Regarding Counterspell, I feel like this reprint would probably screw over midrange decks more than the actual problem decks blue is facing. Counter an Ulamog still get wrecked by the trigger (and they can start packing Kozilek/other for additional on cast triggers if really necessary), Dredge doesn't care, Bant Eldrazi with Cavern out doesn't care, Valakut/Scapeshift just makes its land drops and ramps. It certainly would improve other MUs though.
It will vastly improve the valakut matchups if you have a reliable way to close the game or lock them out of valakut.
Do you give Bauble the target because of its enabling capability? I would just assume up front that a more powerful card would need banning, Shadow for instance.
DRS, Bloodbraid, SFM, and Jace are all fair cards, too.
Fair point. But all you need to do to play those cards is pay their mana cost. Traverse needs a degree of work for it to be really useful. I might be trivializing it, though.
You definitely are. Traverse in the best consistency tool that can go in a deck thats not tron. Knowing wotc they might think of banning it but I myself just ask why not unban preordain to help other decks consistency instead.
It makes sense when you consider what has been banned it makes perfect sense. Slower more resilient combo is good against the kind of decks that are currently popular such as eldrazi. Ad Nauseam is weak to interaction plus a clock such as dsa, jeskai copycat,and delver varients.
Basically it is good because if you are relying on tks as your only meaningful interaction you will not have a good time.
Ad Nauseam is what I would consider the appropriate level for a combo deck. It is only slower side while still punishing punishing things like tron and decks that do not want to interact.
This is true. I have been a part of many gaming communities tbat are very competitive and read posts and articlds on game design and many game developers have stated that nerfs and bans are much easier to do and predict. The problem with magic is that you cannot edit a card you just have to axe the card entirely which causes financial backlash to players. I see why they ban more than jnban but with that said if better checks and balances were kn par with how degenerate the proactive cards are then maybe some loose cannons can be left alone even if they are unfair.
Its not good in other eternal formats either. Every sucessful control deck in vintage or legacy has some element of an unfair wincon or unfair lock. You just need to do something powerful that can steal games in eternal formats. Bgx has that with thoughtseize into goyf and deaths shadow which nesh well with discard. Countermagic and removal decks prefer combos or locks to mesh well with their form of disruption.
Jace only beats the hands that tron should have mulled. Even legacymiracles is a huge dog to big mana strats bjt it makes up for that for crushing midrange and aggro. I think jace will just solidfy blues good matchups which are just too close for them being its best match ups.
I agree. The idea that modern is remotely dying right now is just not realistic. Hell even former big names that disliked the format seem to like it more now.
The opposite can be true also. There were metagames when bgx were bad choices as many pros admittig to those decks being more popular than they should be. Jund and junk were tier 1 in some metas for loger than they should have been just due to popularity alone when better choices were in the sidelines. Even decks that were actively good in certain metas were underpresented. We seen this with twin when it massively dropped in numbers despite being a really good choice. Once twin was played again it started doing really well before its eventual ban.
I feel the same at times also. I currently have the nagging feeling that people arecsleeping on saheeli. People keep saying the deck is bad but from experience and watching others the deck seems like it has something going for it. An optimal list just needs to come up I feel.
Anything slow becoming a jace deck will never happen with karn and giant eldrazi creatures in modern.
I think a lot of it has to do with seas and tec edge. I have a positive matchup against those decks also with jeskai saheeli just because of the combination of land disruption and proactivity is good against the meta in general atm.
I am curious to what this uw list looks like. Is it like the one from worlds 2015 or some other concotion? Is it a tapout control deck?
Most pros believe 4c sheeli is above the other decks in standard but the numbers do not show it yet.
I think modern is a similar place. Deaths shadow seems to be miles above everything like vehicles did in standard pt but the pt did not actually solve the format. I do not think modern is solved either and decks that are more complicated to find the right build or shell take time. Look at twin. It was first way more all in on the combo before it eventually evolved into a tempo/control deck with a combo finish. I think more decks will show up in the post probe troll ban modern if they do not ban or unban anything.
It will vastly improve the valakut matchups if you have a reliable way to close the game or lock them out of valakut.
Traverse in the strongest card in the deck.
You definitely are. Traverse in the best consistency tool that can go in a deck thats not tron. Knowing wotc they might think of banning it but I myself just ask why not unban preordain to help other decks consistency instead.