I guess that's not enough of a tempo boost (since they don't have to spend mana again), and it doesn't have the utility of saving our own creatures from removal. That said, I have considered testing Downpour in the sideboard to break open board stalls, because of that budget Merfolk deck that placed well at a recent event (the details escape me, but we did discuss it on the thread).
From what I gather (quick reads) you are already on 4 snag 4 harbinger plan. Why not just add sea's claim instead of downpour? It wont help you survive an attack, but the island breaks board stalls for your side (islandwalk) and works well with the bounce plan. I only run a few snags and harbingers, but I do run full spreading seas + 3 sea's claim and have had lots of times where I bounce a creature and nab the land that would be able to cast it. 7 island-rain effects has worked great to shut down opposing 3 color decks, and sometimes can even keep 2 color decks off of double-colored spells.
The Conjurer's Bauble worked well in grindy games with lots of counters and (post-board artifact) removal. A bauble was just a way to recycle wurmcoil / bskull / belcher whenever needed. The deck runs so many shuffle effects from land searching that putting a card on the bottom meant it never stayed there.
Keep in mind, right now you're running 35 colored items that whiff ancient stirrings...
So, I haven't seen much discussion on it, has anyone been playing Gitaxian Probe in this deck? I think it would be incredibly helpful, increase consistency somewhat, and give us much more info before going off.
Also, what merit is there to making Oblivion Sower into Thought-Knot Seer? Much easier to cast, and gives us some disruption that also beats down, that also walls up.
All those in some number, mostly dropping the birds for it (IIRC). The metagame was just overly hostile to Belcher at the time so I never really got far. It was crazy consistent at finding its belcher though sometimes it drew too many cards without much else going on.
I'd probably run a bunch of discard, ensnaring bridges, and bitterblossom. Some decks fold to BB all by itself. If the game drags then sword foundry keeps you alive and grinding. 1/1 faeries and thopters flying under the bridges. Academy ruins, tez, maybe welding jar.
I imagine you would run ThopterSword over BB in every case.
@Epsilonson
While I appreciate your input, when you qualify everything you said with "in X type of deck" it discounts a fair amount of the points you are actually making.
I specifically mentioned the counter spells when I mentioned ethersworn canonist to begin with, and I also specifically mentioned it as a "piece" of a lock, and is in herself a soft-lock to some decks.
I think some of your assessments are not quite spot on.
Twin - Ethersworn Canonist shuts down Snapcaster Mage as anything but an ambush viper. You can't even Snap target bolt and bolt on the turn I cast canonist... You also keep them from being able to combo off while you hold mana up (assuming you have either removal or counter in your hand) without them first attempting to remove the canonist.
Burn - This deck relies heavily on using ALL of their mana EVERY turn to do what it does. If you disrupt that, the deck starts to fall apart at its seams...
Tron - Definently at its worst here, as its another artifact-based deck.
Jund - Another deck that relies fairly heavily on casting multiple spells in a turn, especially when its under any sort of duress from its opponent. Sure if your opponent does NOTHING at all you go discard, goyf, liliana and never cast anything again. This is pretty atypical though.
Affinity - Again as an artifact deck canonist is less useful here, but a 2/2 blocks... the entirety of their deck straight up.
Bloom - Bloom is in the business of pact + titan, bloom + titan, when the deck can't perform the way its designed it again falls apart at the seams.
So while we agree on some parts, we disagree on others... and thats fine you aren't looking at it in the same light that I am. Taken singularly you can pick apart ANY cards effectiveness in any matchup!
ex :
Why run bolt? doesnt kill :
exarch,
or goyf (95% of the time),
or ravager (on anything but the worst draw),
or wurmcoil engine,
or liliana tick up,
or karn tick up,
or any titan.
I feel like if I were to explore Tezz again it would be Esper base. Pia and Kiran are very nice, but unless you're blood mooning (which takes a lot of signets/talismans) red doesn't offer a soft lock for tezz as a control deck.
Thats just a small list, I know theres more for all the colors, but white already leads fairly well into what a lot of the artifacts are doing, and sometimes work directly in conjunction (see Canonist).
I can attempt to finish the thoughts later, but its an idea for people to toy around with. I had previous lists that I thoroughly enjoyed and played well that would just need some tuning to really see their viability.
Ok to continue my thoughts here... after playing grixis control lately I have found that having some piece(s) of lock is very important for a control deck. I was looking around for one in red (for grixis) and really found nothing that was very appealing or didnt force my deck to be different (ie : Blood Moon manabase... now I cant turn 1 Serum Visions, turn 2 Terminate, turn 3 Blood Moon).
I really like white for this in Tezz, particularly ethersworn canonist... she comes down early, she makes counter wars obsolete, you can't dig for an answer to her effectively. We play spellskite on many occasions anyway so she is easy to protect, artifacts (and U/W) already have ways to get her back if she dies (Ojutai's Command, Conjurer's Bauble, Academy Ruins) so in many cases the "just died to bolt" (which is a horrible argument anyway) doesn't make much of a difference. She is only a soft-lock piece so some other way of locking down a game would be required (the G/W beatdown doesnt care if they only cast 1 KotR per turn) to really be efficient, but its doable for sure.
Tezz is also nice in that it can allow free-wins on some draws and opponent fetch-shocking only helps that. Waiting on B&R of course to explore what deck to make for MTGO, but this is something I definently want to explore.
I feel like if I were to explore Tezz again it would be Esper base. Pia and Kiran are very nice, but unless you're blood mooning (which takes a lot of signets/talismans) red doesn't offer a soft lock for tezz as a control deck.
Thats just a small list, I know theres more for all the colors, but white already leads fairly well into what a lot of the artifacts are doing, and sometimes work directly in conjunction (see Canonist).
I can attempt to finish the thoughts later, but its an idea for people to toy around with. I had previous lists that I thoroughly enjoyed and played well that would just need some tuning to really see their viability.
It's the versatility of Warping Wail that's great.
-removal
Relevant against Twin creatures, infect creatures, affinity
-sorcery counter
Relevant against combo: Scapeshift, Living End, discard, Lingering Souls, unburial rites, goryo's vengeance, summer bloom, crumble to dust, etc.
-creature
Relevant for surprise chump blocker or T2 ramp into Tezz. Sacrifice source vs liliana.
All for 1<>? Sign me up!
As removal :
If you're holding up 2 mana and twin goes for it... they should expect to not win. So while it works there, its not earth shattering. Lots of things answer the twin combo
Infect creatures should never die to this, if they do they would die to anything "damage based".
Works against affinity before a ravager gets out... no different than any other removal.
As counter :
Its 2 CMC, which drops it into spell snare range, its also instant to be a dispel target and spell pierce. There are far better counters for 2 (or less) mana in modern
As a creature :
Outside of EXTREME fringe cases, this mode will never be used.
Dimir Charm seems far better... does everything you list except the last mode is more relevant.
Yes, if they let you untap after casting hive mind. As a sorcery you get hosed with pulse. Even if maelstrom pulse were an instant they just cast a pact and you get hosed. The key is to stop hive mind from resolving at all, or maybe trickbind then kill it.
Yeah the pulse wasn't mentioned really as an answer for hive mind, more of a response to the "want another EE and more abrupt decays". Since pulse can be both in 1 essentially.
I would start with 1 Maelstrom Pulse before a third abrupt decay. Maybe in place of the 2nd Slaughter Pact for starters (essentially boil down to the same mana cost).
Borderposts are not where you want to be in a field that contains Abrupt Decay and/or counterspells. When you pay 1, return a land and have a borderpost remanded you'll understand the pain.
We had a discussion about how many islands you need somewhere. The 15 you're rolling isnt enough for sure.
First cuts would be Blinkmoths and Godless Shrines. The baseline creature you want to steal is a goyf, which while normally is a 4/5 or so we have artifacts and planeswalkers so you'll want to hit 5 minimum power you're looking to be able to steal starting as soon as shackles lands. Im going to roughly guess thats like 18-20 islands
I think you made a brillant and critical point that alot of people here are dismissing.
Which point was that? (honest question of which part you are exonerating)
Also for a general idea of GP-wins :
Andrew Cuneo said the U/R tutelage deck was basically a pile of trash, it still won a GP. Theres a lot to be said for not knowing how to appropriately fight against a deck, and sometimes not knowing exactly how your cards work in a given matchup (particularly when you dont know how you are fighting the deck in the first place). Also for metagaming and bringing the right deck. If everyone is on grixis, jund, twin and merfolk then yes lantern is a good deck for that field. The deck is a grind... there is no alternative route (unlike the other decks that can just aggro you) so a field of grindy matchups is great.
But, if you're thinking "free" cantrips it does work. Each manamorphose recreates its mana, though you still need that 4 mana to start with.
From what I gather (quick reads) you are already on 4 snag 4 harbinger plan. Why not just add sea's claim instead of downpour? It wont help you survive an attack, but the island breaks board stalls for your side (islandwalk) and works well with the bounce plan. I only run a few snags and harbingers, but I do run full spreading seas + 3 sea's claim and have had lots of times where I bounce a creature and nab the land that would be able to cast it. 7 island-rain effects has worked great to shut down opposing 3 color decks, and sometimes can even keep 2 color decks off of double-colored spells.
Keep in mind, right now you're running 35 colored items that whiff ancient stirrings...
I had a VERY heavy drawing version I was toying with a while back :
Manamorphose
Gitaxian Probe
Conjurer's Bauble (recycles whatever card you need and can pull from Ancient Stirrings)
Mishra's Bauble (Ancient Stirrings target and free draw)
All those in some number, mostly dropping the birds for it (IIRC). The metagame was just overly hostile to Belcher at the time so I never really got far. It was crazy consistent at finding its belcher though sometimes it drew too many cards without much else going on.
I imagine you would run ThopterSword over BB in every case.
@Epsilonson
While I appreciate your input, when you qualify everything you said with "in X type of deck" it discounts a fair amount of the points you are actually making.
I specifically mentioned the counter spells when I mentioned ethersworn canonist to begin with, and I also specifically mentioned it as a "piece" of a lock, and is in herself a soft-lock to some decks.
I think some of your assessments are not quite spot on.
Twin - Ethersworn Canonist shuts down Snapcaster Mage as anything but an ambush viper. You can't even Snap target bolt and bolt on the turn I cast canonist... You also keep them from being able to combo off while you hold mana up (assuming you have either removal or counter in your hand) without them first attempting to remove the canonist.
Burn - This deck relies heavily on using ALL of their mana EVERY turn to do what it does. If you disrupt that, the deck starts to fall apart at its seams...
Tron - Definently at its worst here, as its another artifact-based deck.
Jund - Another deck that relies fairly heavily on casting multiple spells in a turn, especially when its under any sort of duress from its opponent. Sure if your opponent does NOTHING at all you go discard, goyf, liliana and never cast anything again. This is pretty atypical though.
Affinity - Again as an artifact deck canonist is less useful here, but a 2/2 blocks... the entirety of their deck straight up.
Bloom - Bloom is in the business of pact + titan, bloom + titan, when the deck can't perform the way its designed it again falls apart at the seams.
So while we agree on some parts, we disagree on others... and thats fine you aren't looking at it in the same light that I am. Taken singularly you can pick apart ANY cards effectiveness in any matchup!
ex :
Why run bolt? doesnt kill :
exarch,
or goyf (95% of the time),
or ravager (on anything but the worst draw),
or wurmcoil engine,
or liliana tick up,
or karn tick up,
or any titan.
But its the #1 spell in modern!
I really like white for this in Tezz, particularly ethersworn canonist... she comes down early, she makes counter wars obsolete, you can't dig for an answer to her effectively. We play spellskite on many occasions anyway so she is easy to protect, artifacts (and U/W) already have ways to get her back if she dies (Ojutai's Command, Conjurer's Bauble, Academy Ruins) so in many cases the "just died to bolt" (which is a horrible argument anyway) doesn't make much of a difference. She is only a soft-lock piece so some other way of locking down a game would be required (the G/W beatdown doesnt care if they only cast 1 KotR per turn) to really be efficient, but its doable for sure.
Tezz is also nice in that it can allow free-wins on some draws and opponent fetch-shocking only helps that. Waiting on B&R of course to explore what deck to make for MTGO, but this is something I definently want to explore.
Artifacts already give you a decent start : (soft-lock pieces / random hate)
Chalice of the Void
Torpor Orb
Spellskite
Defense Grid
Thorn of Amethyst
Lodestone Golem
Relic of Progenitus
Crucible of Worlds (+ Ghost Quarter)
Ensnaring Bridge
White : (soft-lock / hate)
Ethersworn Canonist
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Vryn Wingmare
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindcensor
Ghostly Prison
Red : (soft-lock / hate)
Blood Moon
Shatter Storm
Boil
Thats just a small list, I know theres more for all the colors, but white already leads fairly well into what a lot of the artifacts are doing, and sometimes work directly in conjunction (see Canonist).
I can attempt to finish the thoughts later, but its an idea for people to toy around with. I had previous lists that I thoroughly enjoyed and played well that would just need some tuning to really see their viability.
As removal :
If you're holding up 2 mana and twin goes for it... they should expect to not win. So while it works there, its not earth shattering. Lots of things answer the twin combo
Infect creatures should never die to this, if they do they would die to anything "damage based".
Works against affinity before a ravager gets out... no different than any other removal.
As counter :
Its 2 CMC, which drops it into spell snare range, its also instant to be a dispel target and spell pierce. There are far better counters for 2 (or less) mana in modern
As a creature :
Outside of EXTREME fringe cases, this mode will never be used.
Dimir Charm seems far better... does everything you list except the last mode is more relevant.
Manamorphose?
Yeah the pulse wasn't mentioned really as an answer for hive mind, more of a response to the "want another EE and more abrupt decays". Since pulse can be both in 1 essentially.
I would start with 1 Maelstrom Pulse before a third abrupt decay. Maybe in place of the 2nd Slaughter Pact for starters (essentially boil down to the same mana cost).
Care to expand how "there is much room for improvement"?
/e : The list for those curious
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Phyrexia's Core
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
6 Swamp
Creatures
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Spellskite
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Reshape
2 Death Cloud
3 Damnation
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Dominance
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Trading Post
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Expedition Map
1 Spellskite
1 Torpor Orb
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Death Cloud
First cuts would be Blinkmoths and Godless Shrines. The baseline creature you want to steal is a goyf, which while normally is a 4/5 or so we have artifacts and planeswalkers so you'll want to hit 5 minimum power you're looking to be able to steal starting as soon as shackles lands. Im going to roughly guess thats like 18-20 islands
Which point was that? (honest question of which part you are exonerating)
Also for a general idea of GP-wins :
Andrew Cuneo said the U/R tutelage deck was basically a pile of trash, it still won a GP. Theres a lot to be said for not knowing how to appropriately fight against a deck, and sometimes not knowing exactly how your cards work in a given matchup (particularly when you dont know how you are fighting the deck in the first place). Also for metagaming and bringing the right deck. If everyone is on grixis, jund, twin and merfolk then yes lantern is a good deck for that field. The deck is a grind... there is no alternative route (unlike the other decks that can just aggro you) so a field of grindy matchups is great.