Can I get the low-down on what we are good against and what we are bad against? It's been a while since I've played my Merfolk deck and I'm wanting to get back into it.
There's some data for all of these, but this is my estimate on how these have gone in my experience.
Good
Abzan - it's the slower flavor of BGX, we can overcome their 1-for-1 heavy approach (especially post-board with Kira/Monastery Siege/Spellskite, and we can ignore its blockers.
Azorius Control - it doesn't run enough spot removal to deal with our early game pressure, and Æther Vial helps us recover from Supreme Verdict quickly.
Burn - We don't damage ourselves, and a resolved Master of Waves pretty much ends the game. Even better post-board.
Emeria Control - Too slow, not enough removal, and it can't use its blockers against us. One of our better matchups IMO.
Grixis Control - This is basically the "heavy" version of Grixis Delver, and while the increased removal package makes it a bit tougher, I still think we're favored.
Grixis Delver - This deck damages itself, which gives us advantage in the race, and it often can't block us, which is an even bigger advantage. Delve creatures also hate bounce effects.
Jund - it's faster than Abzan, but many of the same BGX weaknesses apply, plus it can't do much about a resolved Master of Waves U Tron - Gets going too slowly, has problems with creature swarms, and Spreading Seas hurts it a lot.
Twin (all varieties) - We can disrupt their combo pretty easily, and race them once they're there. Again, they have islands
Zoo - As close to a mirror as any other deck gets in this meta, but our creatures are (potentially) bigger and more disruptive. Messing with their mana also hurts them badly.
50/50
Ad Nauseam - Their combo is a bit slow compared to our beatdown plan, but Angel's Grace or Phyrexian Unlife can buy them a critical turn, so try to catch those coming in. Bring in all of the counterspells you have to combat it.
Amulet Bloom - It's basically a race. We're a bit slower than their nut hands, but we can disrupt them a bit with counters and bounce. Tidebinder Mage and bounce effects can disrupt their Primeval Titan plan, and counterspells keep Hive Mind in check.
Grishoalbrand - A very fast and nasty combo kill. Keep counterspells or bounce up at all times.
Infect - Put simply, a race. Counterspells and bounce/removal are key to coming out on top.
Jeskai Control - Tons of removal and sweepers. We can win, but it's a long, grindy slog of a game. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Monastery Siege, and/or Spellskite come highly recommended.
Living End - their ability to sweep you and end up with a board state can be very problematic, but an Æther Vial and some judicious play can keep you in it. Chalice of the Void at x=0 and graveyard hate such as Relic of Progenitus will shut them down hard.
Scapeshift - We can race them pretty effectively, unless they land a sweeper while your creatures are X/2s or less. Be judicious about how much you commit to the board. RG Tron - Easy to race and disrupt (Spreading Seas ftw), but their sweepers can be a problem. Hold up some countermagic to address that.
Fair enough, gents. So I'm thinking Spell Pierce and Spell Snare will be the ones I opt for in the first version, and keep Mana Leak and Remand in reserve.
You're kidding, right? The deck is a mainstay in T16s and T8s across events. We just put 2 in the T16 at the SCG IQ in Atlanta. Just because we hit a bit of a dip in overall representation as compared to before doesn't mean the deck is fading fast. I think the WU version is pretty demonstrably weaker than the mono-U, and the popularity waning a tad is only a symptom of lots of Affinity going around and people opting to shelve their Fish as opposed to sleeving up Chalice of the Void and Hurkyl's Recall and going toe to toe with it (which is what I do). Merfolk is doing fine, and far better than it ever did since I had been playing Modern. I say stay the course.
Oooh, I like that "sideboard in 15 every time" trick. That's clever.
And I'm starting to see why the consensus regarding Grixis Delver has formed. The Dark Confidant-based deck really does struggle mightily against disruption, particularly the proactive kind that BGX likes so much. I can beat brews and some of the weaker named decks, but tiered decks handle it fairly consistently. The deck folds to sweepers, beefy blockers (seriously, its lack of evasion apart from Delver of Secrets just keeps coming up), Darkblast, Snapcaster Mage + Lightning Bolt... just no resiliency.
I'm beginning to look longingly at Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and Kolaghan's Command. I think I still like Disrupting Shoal, though, so I'm torn on whether I should split the difference or stick to my guns on one version or the other. I'm thinking I'll try splitting the difference (so run the big guys with Shoal), because I'll have a fuller curve to discard to Shoal (which really is a weakness of the Dark Confidant-fueled version). Now the only question is whether to push for 18 or 20 land...
Why is there so much WU Merfolk flying around of late in this thread? I tested that version extensively, and I found it to be categorically weaker than the mono-U one. That's pretty well supported by the fact that they are virtually absent from high-level tournament results of late. Are these just metagame calls?
Where are the Harbinger of the Tides? That card put us over the top into Tier 1. 4 Spellskite also strikes me as a bit much, especially when Kira's already in your mainboard - I'd rather have 2 Kites and 2 Chalice of the Void.
I've been reading through the last couple of pages on this thread, and I'm very interested in testing out Sea's Claim in my sideboard. However, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I just trim for it. This is my deck:
The mainboard has been performing excellently, so I'm not really feeling the need to make a change, as are Chalice of the Void and Hurkyl's Recall. I'll listen to any suggestions you all may have, though.
On the first look, 2 Spellskite and 2 Kiras overlap quite a bit here, maybe one Tidebinder and a Cursecatcher in the Main. 4 Slots that you can make free here i think. You can also try to cut a Harbinger :).
But then again, i'm not a huge fan of 8 seas. This version proofed to be somewhat unconsistent in the draws for me.
Thanks for the reply. Spellskite and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner sometimes feel redundant, but the combination of both shines against the likes of Grixis Control and B/G/X, though I might not need them because I feel favored against both. If I have to pick one, I'd probably pick Spellskite over Kira, because Spellskite has game against Bogles, which I like. Given your hesitance to endorse 4 Sea's Claim, how does 2 Kira for 2 Claim sound?
I'm not a fan of 2 seas claim. I strongly feel that Seas Claim is an ALL or NOTHING card.
Yes, the Combo of Kira and Skite is good, but in a game you can achieve that, you are already winning anyway. The question is, how much do you water down your threats to get there. Because Kira gets really strong with additional counterspells in hand ;).
Its pretty much: Kira+Threat (needs 3 removals) vs. Kira+Spellskite(needs 4 removals, but doesn't do any damage) vs. Kira + Counter in hand but you need open mana (4 removals again or three in a single turn) but i can see an arguement for both.
My reason for not running Spellskite is simple. Decks that get destroyed by it, are prepared for it. I don't like that at all. Against those decks a Skite is only a speedbump. Abrupt decays are an argument for Spellskites though.
It comes down to preference i guess...
If you want to run 4 Claims in the Sideboard, then i would cut the 2 Skites, a Tidebinder and a Cursecatcher(1 Kira into Main), which should be possible since you run with 20 lands.
You could also keep a Cursecatcher and go down a land to 19.
BUT, i don't think a 8 seas version is better than what you play right now
That's fair. 4 Sea's Claim is probably a bit much for my sideboard, so I think I'll toss that idea on the back burner for the time being.
I feel like Chalice of the Void, much like Hurkyl's Recall, should either be played as at least a 3-of or not at all. It has to be in your opening hand to be at its strongest. Because of this, I tend to run either Chalice or Hurkyl's Recall, as with 3 Tec Edge (should be mandatory for each sideboard) + 3 Chalice + 3 Hurkyl's Recall, there is not enough room in the sideboard (plus recall and chalice overlap in some matchups).
I love Chalice because it is such an incredibly broad card. I side it in against:
Also against GRtron on the play and against some versions of UWr (x=1). And note this is only the decks mtgs lists as tier 1 or tier 2 decks, it also helps against a lot of less popular decks and random yank.
I agree with the sentiment (which is that Chalice of the Void is best early, and that a lot of decks get shut down by a x=0 or an x=1 activation), but 4 Chalices is a bit much if you ask me. I run 2 in my board, and that seems to be plenty.
You know, that discussion on Remand is making me consider whether I should make room for the card in my Grixis Delver shell. I'm in the market for a CMC2 blue spell to chuck to Disrupting Shoal, and buying a turn or two against B/G/X at card parity could be interesting. I also have to consider Spell Pierce, though that may be more of a sideboard card.
I've been reading through the last couple of pages on this thread, and I'm very interested in testing out Sea's Claim in my sideboard. However, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I just trim for it. This is my deck:
The mainboard has been performing excellently, so I'm not really feeling the need to make a change, as are Chalice of the Void and Hurkyl's Recall. I'll listen to any suggestions you all may have, though.
On the first look, 2 Spellskite and 2 Kiras overlap quite a bit here, maybe one Tidebinder and a Cursecatcher in the Main. 4 Slots that you can make free here i think. You can also try to cut a Harbinger :).
But then again, i'm not a huge fan of 8 seas. This version proofed to be somewhat unconsistent in the draws for me.
Thanks for the reply. Spellskite and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner sometimes feel redundant, but the combination of both shines against the likes of Grixis Control and B/G/X, though I might not need them because I feel favored against both. If I have to pick one, I'd probably pick Spellskite over Kira, because Spellskite has game against Bogles, which I like. Given your hesitance to endorse 4 Sea's Claim, how does 2 Kira for 2 Claim sound?
Well, I got some testing in against Abzan last night, and I definitely felt the need to reload. Though draws were an issue at times (seriously, how does a deck with 18 lands draw 5+ of them by turn 5? And how does it happen more than once?), the attrition was a problem that was only exacerbated when I had the need to use [[Disrupting Shoal]], since that kind of plays into their gameplan (grind you out of cards). I also felt that 4 Terminate wasn't quite enough to answer all of those nasty critters. The question is, do I try to fix it using Day's Undoing or Snapcaster Mage?
I'm very much an Undoing skeptic since it's done poorly for me before when I tried it in Affinity and Burn (sorry, Jordan, but I'm not a fan), but the allure of drawing 7 persists, especially given that B/G/X typically can't cast all the goodies I'm giving them all at once, whereas I can. On the other hand, I really don't want to give them more chances to Abrupt Decay me into the dirt, and I don't have a really defined rotation for it - Vapor Snag has value against Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt and Terminate are obviously essential, and I don't think I want to trim the count for any of my counterspells or creatures for it. Snapcaster Mage is a bit expensive mana-wise and its 2/1 body is kind of meh, but being able to blow up Tarmogoyf and Siege Rhino with a recycled Terminate is something I definitely could have used. Maybe Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not sure, but for now I'll put Snapcaster Mage in my sideboard (probably bringing it in instead of Monastery Swiftspear, which is pretty useless once one of their big beaters hits the table) and see how it goes.
Yep, probably should have skimmed through the pages before I posted my first comment. My bad.
Regarding the rolling over and dying to aggro... It depends. From what I've seen, it matches up well against aggro decks that focus on riding one or two major threats to the promised land (such as Bogles and Infect), and less so against swarms that they can't 1-for-1 into submission (like Affinity, Burn, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo). I'm open to suggestions on how I can handle these guys without putting my own creatures at risk. My initial thoughts were to pack in the likes of Electrickery and Engineered Explosives, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'll listen.
I don't actually have the number of matches against B/G/X with the tempo variant to determine whether the matchup is any better or worse (I only recently took the plunge), so that's definitely something to consider for me. I'll try to test it and see. However, my experience with the matchup using the more midrange-oriented list wasn't exactly positive. I felt like I was playing a more aggressive version of their gameplan, but it usually didn't quite work out, because topdecking a Tarmogoyf after both sides have ground each other into the dirt tends to be a game-winner, and by my understanding, our manabase tends to be a bit more painful than theirs (plus G has access to lifegain if they truly want it).
I think that making Disrupting Shoal work in any version of the deck should be considered somewhat important, though. Sure, it's card disadvantage when cast in the "free" way, but trading cards for tempo is at the core of what this deck wants to accomplish, is it not? Any thoughts on why we don't see more of this?
There's some data for all of these, but this is my estimate on how these have gone in my experience.
Good
Abzan - it's the slower flavor of BGX, we can overcome their 1-for-1 heavy approach (especially post-board with Kira/Monastery Siege/Spellskite, and we can ignore its blockers.
Azorius Control - it doesn't run enough spot removal to deal with our early game pressure, and Æther Vial helps us recover from Supreme Verdict quickly.
Burn - We don't damage ourselves, and a resolved Master of Waves pretty much ends the game. Even better post-board.
Emeria Control - Too slow, not enough removal, and it can't use its blockers against us. One of our better matchups IMO.
Grixis Control - This is basically the "heavy" version of Grixis Delver, and while the increased removal package makes it a bit tougher, I still think we're favored.
Grixis Delver - This deck damages itself, which gives us advantage in the race, and it often can't block us, which is an even bigger advantage. Delve creatures also hate bounce effects.
Jund - it's faster than Abzan, but many of the same BGX weaknesses apply, plus it can't do much about a resolved Master of Waves
U Tron - Gets going too slowly, has problems with creature swarms, and Spreading Seas hurts it a lot.
Twin (all varieties) - We can disrupt their combo pretty easily, and race them once they're there. Again, they have islands
Zoo - As close to a mirror as any other deck gets in this meta, but our creatures are (potentially) bigger and more disruptive. Messing with their mana also hurts them badly.
50/50
Ad Nauseam - Their combo is a bit slow compared to our beatdown plan, but Angel's Grace or Phyrexian Unlife can buy them a critical turn, so try to catch those coming in. Bring in all of the counterspells you have to combat it.
Amulet Bloom - It's basically a race. We're a bit slower than their nut hands, but we can disrupt them a bit with counters and bounce. Tidebinder Mage and bounce effects can disrupt their Primeval Titan plan, and counterspells keep Hive Mind in check.
Grishoalbrand - A very fast and nasty combo kill. Keep counterspells or bounce up at all times.
Infect - Put simply, a race. Counterspells and bounce/removal are key to coming out on top.
Jeskai Control - Tons of removal and sweepers. We can win, but it's a long, grindy slog of a game. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Monastery Siege, and/or Spellskite come highly recommended.
Living End - their ability to sweep you and end up with a board state can be very problematic, but an Æther Vial and some judicious play can keep you in it. Chalice of the Void at x=0 and graveyard hate such as Relic of Progenitus will shut them down hard.
Scapeshift - We can race them pretty effectively, unless they land a sweeper while your creatures are X/2s or less. Be judicious about how much you commit to the board.
RG Tron - Easy to race and disrupt (Spreading Seas ftw), but their sweepers can be a problem. Hold up some countermagic to address that.
Bad
Affinity - Probably our worst Game 1 matchup. Requires artifact hate (like Hurkyl's Recall) post-board. Chalice of the Void also helps.
Bogles - Very fast (though internally inconsistent), and difficult to interact with. Chalice of the Void, Hibernation, and Spellskite help out here.
Elves - Similar explosiveness to Affinity, though more reliant on ramp. Counterspells such as Spell Pierce and Unified Will are very weak against them. Chalice of the Void, Dismember, Hibernation, and Tidebinder Mage can all help you here.
Lantern Control - Requires artifact hate (like Hurkyl's Recall) post-board. Chalice of the Void also helps.
And I'm starting to see why the consensus regarding Grixis Delver has formed. The Dark Confidant-based deck really does struggle mightily against disruption, particularly the proactive kind that BGX likes so much. I can beat brews and some of the weaker named decks, but tiered decks handle it fairly consistently. The deck folds to sweepers, beefy blockers (seriously, its lack of evasion apart from Delver of Secrets just keeps coming up), Darkblast, Snapcaster Mage + Lightning Bolt... just no resiliency.
I'm beginning to look longingly at Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and Kolaghan's Command. I think I still like Disrupting Shoal, though, so I'm torn on whether I should split the difference or stick to my guns on one version or the other. I'm thinking I'll try splitting the difference (so run the big guys with Shoal), because I'll have a fuller curve to discard to Shoal (which really is a weakness of the Dark Confidant-fueled version). Now the only question is whether to push for 18 or 20 land...
That's fair. 4 Sea's Claim is probably a bit much for my sideboard, so I think I'll toss that idea on the back burner for the time being.
I agree with the sentiment (which is that Chalice of the Void is best early, and that a lot of decks get shut down by a x=0 or an x=1 activation), but 4 Chalices is a bit much if you ask me. I run 2 in my board, and that seems to be plenty.
Thanks for the reply. Spellskite and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner sometimes feel redundant, but the combination of both shines against the likes of Grixis Control and B/G/X, though I might not need them because I feel favored against both. If I have to pick one, I'd probably pick Spellskite over Kira, because Spellskite has game against Bogles, which I like. Given your hesitance to endorse 4 Sea's Claim, how does 2 Kira for 2 Claim sound?
I'm very much an Undoing skeptic since it's done poorly for me before when I tried it in Affinity and Burn (sorry, Jordan, but I'm not a fan), but the allure of drawing 7 persists, especially given that B/G/X typically can't cast all the goodies I'm giving them all at once, whereas I can. On the other hand, I really don't want to give them more chances to Abrupt Decay me into the dirt, and I don't have a really defined rotation for it - Vapor Snag has value against Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt and Terminate are obviously essential, and I don't think I want to trim the count for any of my counterspells or creatures for it. Snapcaster Mage is a bit expensive mana-wise and its 2/1 body is kind of meh, but being able to blow up Tarmogoyf and Siege Rhino with a recycled Terminate is something I definitely could have used. Maybe Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not sure, but for now I'll put Snapcaster Mage in my sideboard (probably bringing it in instead of Monastery Swiftspear, which is pretty useless once one of their big beaters hits the table) and see how it goes.
Regarding the rolling over and dying to aggro... It depends. From what I've seen, it matches up well against aggro decks that focus on riding one or two major threats to the promised land (such as Bogles and Infect), and less so against swarms that they can't 1-for-1 into submission (like Affinity, Burn, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo). I'm open to suggestions on how I can handle these guys without putting my own creatures at risk. My initial thoughts were to pack in the likes of Electrickery and Engineered Explosives, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'll listen.
I think that making Disrupting Shoal work in any version of the deck should be considered somewhat important, though. Sure, it's card disadvantage when cast in the "free" way, but trading cards for tempo is at the core of what this deck wants to accomplish, is it not? Any thoughts on why we don't see more of this?