Screw the Siren, we just got Opt to play with!
I like this a lot. Oh how often I wished to be able to flashback SV at instant speed. Not sure if I will end up trying out a 4x SV 2x Opt or a 3x/2x split, but this is pretty sweet to have!
Ladies and Gentleman, Opt just got spoiled!!
Not sure if linking stuff is allowed here, but in case people don't believe me: Here at around 4:05 or here for just the image
I run 20 lands in my current list but only because of the 1x Traverse the Ulvenwald. I think of it as something similar to a manland. You hit your landdrops early (but costs one, so it's basically a land that enters tapped) but enables serious value chains or sometimes toolboxing later (I usually end up going for the former most often, but there are definitely situations where simply fetching a Scooze, Clique or SB stuff like Staticaster or Colossus is great).
So 21 lands is adequate and lets you squeeze in a manland, 20 is definetely on the greedy side and in my opinion only possible if you have a low curve (3x Cryptics as the only 4-drops, few 3-drops) and a good amount of cheap card draw.
I like my 20.5 land version with Traverse a lot. There are certainly downsides to treating Traverse as a land (taps only for one colour, 'enters tapped', can be countered/discarded, if you use it early it's not 'CA' like a manland would be, Leonin Arbiter, awkward to play if your only green source is a Flooded Grove) but in my opinion that downside is being made up for with the huge potential upside this card has (search for E-Wit, play again, search for Snap, play again, search for Clique/Scooze/Goyf/ whatever you need is nothing uncommon in grindy MUs and usually wins me the game).
Well it hits most things you care about, in a sense it's like a wonky spellskite on a 1/1 flying body.
Also unlike spell queller which needs to rot in your hand until you get the right opportunity, this innocuous little guy gets to go straight to work pinging your opponent down slowly. That three or so damage could make a difference in quite a few games, maybe.
Anyway I like the card. Seems decent. The question is, what gets dropped to accommodate it?
In my list with a 15 creature/ 21 spell ratio that has been proven quite solid, it would probably replace a spell and a creature in the flex slots for testing purposes. You wanna put at least 2x in for testing so you actually get to see the card often enough, then you can still cut it down to one.
Which means right now probably a Spell Pierce and either a Scooze or the Kitchen Finks.
On paper I'm still not really convinced about the Siren though.
The card looks quite nice, I'm not as hyped as Purklefluff seems to be though. It simply doesn't address any of the deck's weaknesses.
But let's examine a little more thoroughly what relevant stuff this hits:
-spot removal (solid for the tempo gameplan)
-K-Command unless they choose to destroy our Vial and get a creature back
-targeted discard (not bad, but usually too late being online turn 2 the earliest)
-LotV -2
-ONE Valakut trigger (that can buy us another turn against Scapeshift, but isn't really backbreaking)
-Burn spells
-Lightning Storm through Pact of Negation (this is really good)
-TKS trigger
-Shaman of the Pack trigger
-Nihil Spellbomb (that's neat, but they still get to draw a card)
-Nahiri's -2
-Gifts Ungiven
There's probably more but that all I could think about right now, please expand the list if you can think of more relevant stuff.
Overall I think we have to keep in mind that the window to Vial something in is only 1 turn, so in most cases our opponent will know that we have the Siren on the field, which reduces blowout potential a lot. It will rarely be dead, which is pretty good, but like I said, I don't see it improving bad MUs. I will test it, but have the feeling that for now Spell Pierce is more effective in more scenarios.
Yep, still run the singleton Traverse. Opportunity cost is low (I think I can count the times where I was stuck on land but had a Traverse that I couldn't cast on one hand...and I play that card for a while now) while the potential upside is high. Traverse value chains have definetely won me quite some games.
Are you refering to maindeck or SB Lavamancer?
Haven't played it with Collar yet, no. I think I can only see it main actually. Graveyard Hate is played in pretty much every SB right now and playing Lavamancer turn 1 against their turn 1 Relic of Progenitus feels pretty bad.
After having had some suckess with GB rock I have been wanting to experiment with the deck. The deck I ran had both dark confidant, tierless tracker and eternal witness. (4, 3 and 2 respectivly.) I enjoyed the card draw in a very strong deck. I wanted to utelice aether vial for speed.
Anyway, instead of going to town with cryptic command I was thinking Kolaghan's Command could be utelised as a soft lock. Instead of bouncing it could return eternal witness to hand. Instead of countering or tapping it could discard the opnents hand instant speed.
While the people on this forum probably have little experience with playing rock, what do you think about something like this?
I am trading away the planewalkers, something that could potensial be a mistake.
Gotta agree with what Cody said, E-Wit+Kommand is not a softlock. Riding the commonly known Snap+Kommand value train seems stronger than to go with E-Wit.
With that many 3 drops I think it would be a lot better to go with some mana dorks instead of Vial. You don't even play blue so there's no need to hold up counterspells and you're also not hoping to set up a soft lock by turn 4.
Also most of the players here you treid out BUG EC (me included) are of the opinion that targeted discard+Vial don't mash well. You're playing 10 cards that are dead in the lategame in a deck that wants to get exactly there.
Some SB experiences from me: Chameleon Colossus has been great against Grixis DS so far. It's a narrow SB card (something I usually don't like) but I've won every game I've drawn it so far. Basilisk Collar has been pretty sweet too. Comes in against Burn and any deck with bigger creatures but not much removal (mainly Eldrazi Tron, but also stuff like Eldrazi&Taxes or Knightfall). Turns all our value Snaps and E-Wits into serious problems. And a lifelinking Goyf is pretty much game over for Burn unless they have a Revelry handy.
I agree, definitely appreciate the discussion and playstyle preferences are a valid point to play BUG.
Entrancing Melody sadly is not an instant. At instant I would have tried one in the main and one in the side (being able to keep counters up and steal manlands would give the card a huuuge boost). As a sorcery, I think it still deserves some testing in the side, but Goyf is pretty much at an all time low and Chameleon Colossus has been pretty good against Grixis Shadow, the MU where EM would likely come in most often.
The card I'm waiting for that also seems most likely to actually see print would be a solid one or two drop creature. Something that helps us draw through our deck faster (thereby helping to bridge the deckbuilding restrictions of Vial vs. Snapcaster Mage) but better than Coiling Oracle. For RUG a solid 2cmc creature with deathtouch seems like the closest thing we'll get to a killspell. A UG Baleful Strix without flying would be sweet sweet synergy in the deck. A blue one drop with a solid ETB could make running Familiar's Ruse a lot better. There's tons of possibilities if you ask me, but Wizards hasn't really shown much love for UG in Modern so far.
How are you guys approaching the UW Control MU? I tended to try to tempo them out but a timely Path or a resolved Gideon take away so much from our tempo game that I always ended up grinding them out, pick away at them with Snaps and E-Wits. So I started siding out my Goyfs and leaving in only value creatures and answers and so far that has worked out surprisingly well (been 5-0 against the deck since then). I don't know if it's because my opponents don't play the deck optimally (the guys at my LGS are solid players, but playing that deck optimally is hard) or if Vial actually just makes the MU that much better. They can't counter the value of Snaps/E-Wits while it allows us to not overextend into Verdict as much and it helps a lot in answering resolved planeswalkers.
What are your opinions/experiences against the deck?
I don't know if it's been posted here yet, but this line out of their article regarding the leak (source) caught my attention: and we've got some amazing commons and uncommons coming your way—including some fantastic reprints you probably didn't see coming.
(I don't really want to believe it but...) Counterspell hype?!
Supreme Will and Concdescend are indeed interesting choices. Let me know when you tested them to more extend. Mana base seems fine. Maybe switch a Watery Grave for the 2nd Breeding Pool? You'll rarely end up fetching for a second Grave, while Pool is more reasonable (getting GG for E-Wit or just more green for Scooze).
Can't really tell on the Tasigur, but between 4x Goyfs, 2x Cliques and Flayer you should have enough beaters to shave one if you want. Maybe add an additional removal spell that can deal with Delve creatures/Eldrazi instead? Murderous Cut?
Because it doesn't have Bolt, BUG is definitely worse at the tempo game than RUG. Which makes it less suitable to exploit the tempo abilities that Vial offers.
RUG usually uses the softlock to 'get there' (because the lock itself is darn fragile) and, again, RUG is better at getting there than BUG because of Bolt. It uses the lock to keep big opposing creatures at bay, something the deck usually struggles with. BUG struggles a lot less against opposing creatures, you got all the removal spells in the world. You're less likely to end up in situations where it's Cryptic lock or bust. That makes the whole lock less necessary.
In RUG, the other deckbuilding option you have for a tempo/midrange deck is mainly to build around Blood Moon, ditching the lock package. A very powerful card but with very high variance depending on your MU. I prefer the EC build for numerous reasons.
In BUG your other option is playing targeted discard, getting access to multiple manlands (especially Creeping Tar Pit), an overall better mana base and playing less counterspells. In my testing this option felt more powerful than the BUG EC builds I brewed up (there's a reason people are always complaining that we have Thoughtseize but no Counterspell in Modern).
I'm not saying that RUG is better than BUG, as far as I can tell that's meta and playstyle dependent. I'm saying it's a very common thing that you brew up something new, end up putting more and more powerful cards into it to make it better and don't realize that it ended up being a slightly worse version of something that already exists. (It happened to me. a lot. I spent a lot of time trying to make the Eternal Ruse version of this deck work (very similar to EC, but plays more Familiar's Ruse and Coiling Oracles instead of Goyfs...pretty darn bad)).
And that's my opinion on BUG EC vs. BUG Midrange.
You (or others) don't need to share it, but I wanted to arguments clear.
People need to stop comparing GSZ to Chord of Calling.
GSZ is one of the best things green can and could do on turn since pretty much forever: play a mana dork, while not having any of the downsides mana dorks usually have. It does not get worse as the game goes on. You shouldn't ask the question if desks playing tutors will replace them with GSZ, you need to ask if decks that play mana dorks have a reason not to replace them with GSZ.
And I'm not saying there aren't any reasons not to continue to play Noble Hierarchs and Birds. They also fix your mana, CoCO wants a high creature count, exalted is way to good for Indect to pass up on etc.
Reading the last page here just made me feel like people are hugely underselling GSZ. I would like to play with, but I don't think it's time yet. We have a really nice meta right now, several blue decks and strategies are finally viable again. Wizards won't put that on the line with a risky unban like GSZ (and I agree with them here). BBE and SM stay the most likely cards be unbanned and seeing how they have handled unbans in Modern until now, the chances are slim.
Thanks Raven!
Pierce is the real deal, I play 2x now and so far I am really happy with it!
I have actually managed to outgrind UW control (a buddy of mine plays it) multiple times. Traverse chains are real!
Valakut has been a very solid MU so far, establish a threat and just Remand, Snap, Cryptic them all day.
Regarding my comments on BUG...the deck plays a lot more on the midrange control spectrum than RUG does, which makes Vial's tempo abilities worse. Not playing targeted discard in a deck that also runs Goyf as follow up plays is a huge price to pay for the Vial+E-Wit+Cryptic package (running 4 Vials+5-6 Discard plays in one deck just doesn't work out). I think that price is too high and dropping the package for discard and some other interaction/haymakers is simply better. Maybe there is a good BUG is out there, last time I tried it was after Fatal Push was printed and for me it just didn't really work out.
On another note...what are your thoughts on Chameleon Colossus as SB hate against Grixis Death's Shadow? Once resolved they pretty much can't deal with it (besides the very rare Bolt/Snap/Bolt) it blocks their stuff all day and easily finishes them off once they hit 8 life or less (can only be blocked by Snap)? Seems also ok against other grindy MUs.
I would just like to have something in my board that helps me to increase the odds in the MU.
Settle the Wreckage2WW
Instant
Exile all attacking creatures target player controls. That player may search his or her library for that many basic land cards and put those on the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
This can't possibly be happening right? MASS Path to Exile? Isn't this hideously OP? I mean, if it's real it's going straight into my O-Kagachi vengeance deck but man... Angel of the Dire Hour is usually already a blowout, yes I'll have one at over 40% discount...
Has the card been confirmed somewhere or was this just posted because MTGS includes it in the spoilers now?
I agree on Flood Moon, but Restore the Wilds would slot right into RG Valakut and it's straight up better than any Rampant Growth variant I can think of right now and if I recall correctly they have even moved away from that card in Standard, no?
I like this a lot. Oh how often I wished to be able to flashback SV at instant speed. Not sure if I will end up trying out a 4x SV 2x Opt or a 3x/2x split, but this is pretty sweet to have!
Not sure if linking stuff is allowed here, but in case people don't believe me:
Here at around 4:05 or here for just the image
So 21 lands is adequate and lets you squeeze in a manland, 20 is definetely on the greedy side and in my opinion only possible if you have a low curve (3x Cryptics as the only 4-drops, few 3-drops) and a good amount of cheap card draw.
I like my 20.5 land version with Traverse a lot. There are certainly downsides to treating Traverse as a land (taps only for one colour, 'enters tapped', can be countered/discarded, if you use it early it's not 'CA' like a manland would be, Leonin Arbiter, awkward to play if your only green source is a Flooded Grove) but in my opinion that downside is being made up for with the huge potential upside this card has (search for E-Wit, play again, search for Snap, play again, search for Clique/Scooze/Goyf/ whatever you need is nothing uncommon in grindy MUs and usually wins me the game).
In my list with a 15 creature/ 21 spell ratio that has been proven quite solid, it would probably replace a spell and a creature in the flex slots for testing purposes. You wanna put at least 2x in for testing so you actually get to see the card often enough, then you can still cut it down to one.
Which means right now probably a Spell Pierce and either a Scooze or the Kitchen Finks.
On paper I'm still not really convinced about the Siren though.
But let's examine a little more thoroughly what relevant stuff this hits:
-spot removal (solid for the tempo gameplan)
-K-Command unless they choose to destroy our Vial and get a creature back
-targeted discard (not bad, but usually too late being online turn 2 the earliest)
-LotV -2
-ONE Valakut trigger (that can buy us another turn against Scapeshift, but isn't really backbreaking)
-Burn spells
-Lightning Storm through Pact of Negation (this is really good)
-TKS trigger
-Shaman of the Pack trigger
-Nihil Spellbomb (that's neat, but they still get to draw a card)
-Nahiri's -2
-Gifts Ungiven
There's probably more but that all I could think about right now, please expand the list if you can think of more relevant stuff.
Overall I think we have to keep in mind that the window to Vial something in is only 1 turn, so in most cases our opponent will know that we have the Siren on the field, which reduces blowout potential a lot. It will rarely be dead, which is pretty good, but like I said, I don't see it improving bad MUs. I will test it, but have the feeling that for now Spell Pierce is more effective in more scenarios.
Are you refering to maindeck or SB Lavamancer?
Haven't played it with Collar yet, no. I think I can only see it main actually. Graveyard Hate is played in pretty much every SB right now and playing Lavamancer turn 1 against their turn 1 Relic of Progenitus feels pretty bad.
Gotta agree with what Cody said, E-Wit+Kommand is not a softlock. Riding the commonly known Snap+Kommand value train seems stronger than to go with E-Wit.
With that many 3 drops I think it would be a lot better to go with some mana dorks instead of Vial. You don't even play blue so there's no need to hold up counterspells and you're also not hoping to set up a soft lock by turn 4.
Also most of the players here you treid out BUG EC (me included) are of the opinion that targeted discard+Vial don't mash well. You're playing 10 cards that are dead in the lategame in a deck that wants to get exactly there.
Some SB experiences from me:
Chameleon Colossus has been great against Grixis DS so far. It's a narrow SB card (something I usually don't like) but I've won every game I've drawn it so far.
Basilisk Collar has been pretty sweet too. Comes in against Burn and any deck with bigger creatures but not much removal (mainly Eldrazi Tron, but also stuff like Eldrazi&Taxes or Knightfall). Turns all our value Snaps and E-Wits into serious problems. And a lifelinking Goyf is pretty much game over for Burn unless they have a Revelry handy.
Entrancing Melody sadly is not an instant. At instant I would have tried one in the main and one in the side (being able to keep counters up and steal manlands would give the card a huuuge boost). As a sorcery, I think it still deserves some testing in the side, but Goyf is pretty much at an all time low and Chameleon Colossus has been pretty good against Grixis Shadow, the MU where EM would likely come in most often.
The card I'm waiting for that also seems most likely to actually see print would be a solid one or two drop creature. Something that helps us draw through our deck faster (thereby helping to bridge the deckbuilding restrictions of Vial vs. Snapcaster Mage) but better than Coiling Oracle. For RUG a solid 2cmc creature with deathtouch seems like the closest thing we'll get to a killspell. A UG Baleful Strix without flying would be sweet sweet synergy in the deck. A blue one drop with a solid ETB could make running Familiar's Ruse a lot better. There's tons of possibilities if you ask me, but Wizards hasn't really shown much love for UG in Modern so far.
How are you guys approaching the UW Control MU? I tended to try to tempo them out but a timely Path or a resolved Gideon take away so much from our tempo game that I always ended up grinding them out, pick away at them with Snaps and E-Wits. So I started siding out my Goyfs and leaving in only value creatures and answers and so far that has worked out surprisingly well (been 5-0 against the deck since then). I don't know if it's because my opponents don't play the deck optimally (the guys at my LGS are solid players, but playing that deck optimally is hard) or if Vial actually just makes the MU that much better. They can't counter the value of Snaps/E-Wits while it allows us to not overextend into Verdict as much and it helps a lot in answering resolved planeswalkers.
What are your opinions/experiences against the deck?
and we've got some amazing commons and uncommons coming your way—including some fantastic reprints you probably didn't see coming.
(I don't really want to believe it but...) Counterspell hype?!
Can't really tell on the Tasigur, but between 4x Goyfs, 2x Cliques and Flayer you should have enough beaters to shave one if you want. Maybe add an additional removal spell that can deal with Delve creatures/Eldrazi instead? Murderous Cut?
Because it doesn't have Bolt, BUG is definitely worse at the tempo game than RUG. Which makes it less suitable to exploit the tempo abilities that Vial offers.
RUG usually uses the softlock to 'get there' (because the lock itself is darn fragile) and, again, RUG is better at getting there than BUG because of Bolt. It uses the lock to keep big opposing creatures at bay, something the deck usually struggles with. BUG struggles a lot less against opposing creatures, you got all the removal spells in the world. You're less likely to end up in situations where it's Cryptic lock or bust. That makes the whole lock less necessary.
In RUG, the other deckbuilding option you have for a tempo/midrange deck is mainly to build around Blood Moon, ditching the lock package. A very powerful card but with very high variance depending on your MU. I prefer the EC build for numerous reasons.
In BUG your other option is playing targeted discard, getting access to multiple manlands (especially Creeping Tar Pit), an overall better mana base and playing less counterspells. In my testing this option felt more powerful than the BUG EC builds I brewed up (there's a reason people are always complaining that we have Thoughtseize but no Counterspell in Modern).
I'm not saying that RUG is better than BUG, as far as I can tell that's meta and playstyle dependent. I'm saying it's a very common thing that you brew up something new, end up putting more and more powerful cards into it to make it better and don't realize that it ended up being a slightly worse version of something that already exists. (It happened to me. a lot. I spent a lot of time trying to make the Eternal Ruse version of this deck work (very similar to EC, but plays more Familiar's Ruse and Coiling Oracles instead of Goyfs...pretty darn bad)).
And that's my opinion on BUG EC vs. BUG Midrange.
You (or others) don't need to share it, but I wanted to arguments clear.
GSZ is one of the best things green can and could do on turn since pretty much forever: play a mana dork, while not having any of the downsides mana dorks usually have. It does not get worse as the game goes on. You shouldn't ask the question if desks playing tutors will replace them with GSZ, you need to ask if decks that play mana dorks have a reason not to replace them with GSZ.
And I'm not saying there aren't any reasons not to continue to play Noble Hierarchs and Birds. They also fix your mana, CoCO wants a high creature count, exalted is way to good for Indect to pass up on etc.
Reading the last page here just made me feel like people are hugely underselling GSZ. I would like to play with, but I don't think it's time yet. We have a really nice meta right now, several blue decks and strategies are finally viable again. Wizards won't put that on the line with a risky unban like GSZ (and I agree with them here). BBE and SM stay the most likely cards be unbanned and seeing how they have handled unbans in Modern until now, the chances are slim.
Pierce is the real deal, I play 2x now and so far I am really happy with it!
I have actually managed to outgrind UW control (a buddy of mine plays it) multiple times. Traverse chains are real!
Valakut has been a very solid MU so far, establish a threat and just Remand, Snap, Cryptic them all day.
Regarding my comments on BUG...the deck plays a lot more on the midrange control spectrum than RUG does, which makes Vial's tempo abilities worse. Not playing targeted discard in a deck that also runs Goyf as follow up plays is a huge price to pay for the Vial+E-Wit+Cryptic package (running 4 Vials+5-6 Discard plays in one deck just doesn't work out). I think that price is too high and dropping the package for discard and some other interaction/haymakers is simply better. Maybe there is a good BUG is out there, last time I tried it was after Fatal Push was printed and for me it just didn't really work out.
On another note...what are your thoughts on Chameleon Colossus as SB hate against Grixis Death's Shadow? Once resolved they pretty much can't deal with it (besides the very rare Bolt/Snap/Bolt) it blocks their stuff all day and easily finishes them off once they hit 8 life or less (can only be blocked by Snap)? Seems also ok against other grindy MUs.
I would just like to have something in my board that helps me to increase the odds in the MU.
Has the card been confirmed somewhere or was this just posted because MTGS includes it in the spoilers now?
Do you have a source for that?