I don't think it is chance. The measurements we just came up with tell a similar story, even though the rules were different. That the deck is better with Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting is not supported by testing. .
Yeah, and it's troubling me, since I win more with the LED's than with TT.
New round of testing, since I think it might be in our goldfish method. We tested speed, but not resilience. I think we need some testing method that involves our opponent playing T1 deathrite, then having the option of holding up deathrite or playing Tarmogoyf. I get lost on what to do from there, though.
...that looks a little funky though. One of the strengths of Tireless Tribe is having an extra body to Dread Return more quickly, but your list isn't running Dread Return at all. It's running Faithless Looting instead, which might be fine, but Looting is definitely a card that favors LED builds.
I think a fairer comparison would be between DR Tireless Dredge and the Quadlazer.
It's obvious what cards are in the Quadlazer, but there's diversity on what should be in a Tireless Tribe build. This might not be the most representative one, but it's the spiciest one IMHO:
Nick Davis, 3rd place, SCG IQ on 8.28.2011 (well before Faithless Looting was printed)
If I were playing this today, I'd probably just switch in the Darkblast for a Golgari Thug, cut Chalice of the Void for Leyline of the Void, and add a Ray of Revelation. I tested the list out with just such a configuration this evening... and I don't know... it's pretty fast... Dread Return --> Iona is a threat most decks have to respect. Quadlazer is usually working on a 3rd or 4th zombie by that point.
...
If anyone wants to take some measurements for a Quadlazer list, that would be convenient. I'm going to start collecting stats on the above list. The rules are:
Pure goldfish, ignore hate, blockers, etc; MD only
Terminate the goldfish either at 20 damage or a reanimated Iona
On the play
Round One testing stats:
T2 kills: 6 (all due to Iona)
T3 kills: 5 (3 FKZ 2 Iona)
T4 kills:11 (6 Ichorid 2 Iona 3 combination)
T5 kills: 5 (2 Ichorid 1 Iona 2 Reanimated Grave-Troll)
Mulls to oblivion: 2
That's Bloodghast dredge, though. Not the same deck as TT LEDless. The reason I don't have DR in there is that I don't like maindecking DR targets in LEDless because you already have some issues getting going with your draw cards. 12/12 Grave trolls on turn 3 aren't good enough right now, so just having 2 DR in there as value like we used to do doesn't make the cut.
T2: 0 (technically possible with a god hand and god dredges, just didn't happen for me in this testing)
T3:14 (12 of these were the good old T1 LED>breakthrough>crack LED for red in response>faithless looting flashback)
T4: 17
T5:3
Mull to oblivion:1
Ok, not bad, about what I expect out of quadlaser.
T1: 3 (LED's into breakthrough into faithless into DR FKZ)
T2: 7 (same as above)
T3: 9
T4: 10
T5: 0
Mull to oblivion: 6
There were a lot of places this deck would have been screwed against Deathrite shaman that didn't show up in testing. The addition of 4 cards for the DR package actually makes the deck significantly less consistent.
I have been playing both versions for about 18 months now, ever since I actually got my LED's. Allow me to post the two lists, so that newer dredgers understand what we are saying:
(FYI, after testing Wraith as suggested in Levin's article, I am totally and completely sold)
The main reason I lean towards LED dredge lists is that it is slightly more consistent and about a half turn faster. In UnLEDed dredge, my average kill is around 4.5, where my average kill in LED is around 4. Both get stuck about the same amount of the time against hate, though I will admit that unLEDed is marginally stronger against fair creature decks. I don't think that is a good comparison point, though, since we are already so favored against them just by virtue of being dredge. The main point comes against combo and control, where the increased consistency of quadlaser and the slight bump in speed make the matches much closer to even.
While I think it is a preference thing, metagames that are more combo-heavy are hostile toward Quadlaser, while creature-centric metas are easy prey for the quadlaser build.
Each dredge player will give you a different answer on DR targets, but:
Yeah, if you are already running Dread Return, Ashen rider is the way to go with your sideboard. You will probably need some other stuff, but that can change depending on your build.
So, You're suggesting that after boarding against control, to use Therapies and Unmasks to grind out your opponent's hand. Removing their control elements then 'go off' with your dredge for the win, rather than dredge for Iona and win that way?
-Yawg
Exactly. I have been using 3 in my board for a while now, and they are a really smooth, effective method of fighting back against decks that are difficult to race, such as Sneak and Show and Storm. Unmask also has the Gitaxian Probe effect of giving us deadly accurate therapies. If your opponent cannot play anything relevant, we don't need a 7/7 angel, 2 3/1s and some assorted 1/1's and 2/2's will get the job done.
Also, was wondering about Leyline of the Void... I've seen it in lots of decks, but didn't know if they were boarded in the same way as years ago. I used to board them in vs the mirror or against decks that purposefully ran creatures that sacrificed themselves (thus negating an opponents creature hitting the yard, removing all my Bridges). Are Leylines still used for that reason, or are there matchups that I'm missing that Leyline is good against?
Leyline is good vs decks like that, the main reason I keep my 3-4 in there is that the mirror is tough without one, and reanimator is nearly unwinnable otherwise. As a curiosity, it is very useful against Past in Flames decks.
Any thoughts on my build: standard lazer main. Need help with the side. What would be a good side going into a blind meta. I figure firestorm for drs/ooze decks, claim and vapor for anti-hate, and the dread returns/iona for the combo match ups.
I've said this before, but I really hate Iona in the combo matchups. I would prefer to just do my thing with more disruption than start warping my deck with a plan that could already be too slow. Since we can't run 8 therapy, I would suggest throwing in Unmask in those 3 slots.
LED's are totally worth it, because if you went into a street race with nitrous and didn't need it, isn't that better than not having the option and needing it to keep up? This is the argument for LED's that will stand as long as sneak and show, reanimator, and storm are viable decks. Also, LED is the trump card in the dredge mirror.
Yes, it can lead to blowouts, but careful, correct play makes them basically non-issues.
That is totally incorrect. We only go all-in when there is no other way to beat the opponent, or when the way is obviously clear. Otherwise, we should be acting like a disruptive, resilient aggro deck.
However, if you are going to go through all the hard work of triggering bloodghasts, take out bridges. They are fairly dead cards when you have no ichorids. Jam in 4 gemstone mine and hope that you can get there.
Honestly, probe is kind of a crutch. You don't really need it if you understand the legacy metagame. You can narrow what deck your opponent is playing down to 2-3 decks just by his or her first land drop. I tried tunison's dredge a fair bit, and it does work, but it seems tailored to a certain playstyle. I would totally suggest cutting 4 probes for 3 firestorm and 1 tarnished citadel.
Do you guys think 4 or 3 leylines is good? I kind of want to drop it for a third reanimator target or another firestorm.
If your meta is actually storm, then DR Griselbrand/FKZ is a good option. Delver is so easy, you just need to make sure you have outs to Grafdigger's Cage. Would recommend like so:
The big thing is to prioritize accurate hand disruption Vs storm Blind call Dark ritual most of the time, because it will kill you more often than any other card.
Went to legacy at my local store last night. Went 3-0, but very unimpressed with the way my deck was functioning. Making changes, mostly putting the Putrid Imps back in. Need them for ichorid food too much.
Between us: if the LED does not come in your hand on T1, you're basically playing "Dredge Manaless", and i love Tireless Tribe !
I really love tireless tribe, but the above statement isn't entirely accurate. I ran LEDless until faithless was printed, as before it really was a question of "All-in vs grind it out." Faithless, however, has made it so that in the majority of situations, there is no downside to LED vs Tribe. Also, not having LED in your opening hand does not make the deck manaless, it makes it LEDless. Tribe has to be in your opener to be useful as well.
That said, I still think LEDless is a valid strategy for MTGO and small events, but I don't want to play against good players in a large event (GP's, etc) without a trump card against combo, like LED.
I can def see where Breakthrough can be taken out in those long game matchups... I'm going to assume those matchups are the same ones you'd want Iona in for. Control decks that can neuter your 'one swing' win, and want to take your, now, crappy aggro reanimator deck into the long game. Am I right in that assessment?
With Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, are these the guys that Pithing Needle are boarded in for in the decks that run Needle? I was assuming these two and Engineered Explosives, Relic & the rest like that. Is it worth it to put Needle in vs those two creatures or even care about them, or is it better to just play around them?
I'm not a fan of Paradise either, but I've been looking to add a land or two to the standard 12... I've felt that the land consistancy is lacking a bit... What do you think would be a better land for that 1 or 2, Undiscovered Paradise or Tainted Citadel? On one hand, you lightning bolt yourself (which can add up with the other painlands) each use, which would be rotten if that's the only land in your opening 7; on the other hand, you have a land that will slow you up by having to replay it next turn...
-Yawg
Iona is normally there vs combo and control, though you never cut breakthrough vs combo. It's already a tough matchup for you, and you don't want to slow down. I cut breakthrough because these decks will generally be beaten best by just going DDD, grinding out the games with ichorid. They will have plenty of counters for your returns, so unless you can sneak one through somehow, you just want to run them out of resources. Narcomoeba does wonders as a 1/1 flyer in these matches. also, don't be afraid to just cast Golgari thugs if you get the chance.
Pithing needle has to be in your opener to be good. This is true of a lot of our SB cards, but most of them are higher impact. Needling a Crypt or Relic is just bad, because your opponent would need some number greater than 2 of these to beat you, so you should be able to beat their normal draw anyway. Deathrite is not even a threat to our plan as long as we don't give them 2+ turns of breathing room. Scavenging ooze is even slower to get going, though a fully armed and operational one (3+mana) is usually just game over. Firestorm deals with both of these cards, and everything else they have played so far, and is a discard outlet, and will deal 4-5 to the face.
If you really feel the need for 14-15 lands, make them Tarnished Citadel. There are exactly 2 matchups where the 3 damage matters: Burn and Goblins. As long as you aren't sitting at the 0-2 tables, you should be fine (kidding, but these are really fringe decks that are not so hot in the current metagame). Merfolk will take advantage of the damage to yourself maybe 1 game in 10. The way we normally lose is "wow, grafdigger's cage, tormod's crypt, AND double deathrite? Yeah, that might actually be enough." We don't lose to damage, we lose to disruption.
Yeah, and it's troubling me, since I win more with the LED's than with TT.
New round of testing, since I think it might be in our goldfish method. We tested speed, but not resilience. I think we need some testing method that involves our opponent playing T1 deathrite, then having the option of holding up deathrite or playing Tarmogoyf. I get lost on what to do from there, though.
That's Bloodghast dredge, though. Not the same deck as TT LEDless. The reason I don't have DR in there is that I don't like maindecking DR targets in LEDless because you already have some issues getting going with your draw cards. 12/12 Grave trolls on turn 3 aren't good enough right now, so just having 2 DR in there as value like we used to do doesn't make the cut.
I'll take you up on the goldfish testing.
Quadlaser:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
T2: 0 (technically possible with a god hand and god dredges, just didn't happen for me in this testing)
T3:14 (12 of these were the good old T1 LED>breakthrough>crack LED for red in response>faithless looting flashback)
T4: 17
T5:3
Mull to oblivion:1
Ok, not bad, about what I expect out of quadlaser.
LED DR Dredge:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
T1: 3 (LED's into breakthrough into faithless into DR FKZ)
T2: 7 (same as above)
T3: 9
T4: 10
T5: 0
Mull to oblivion: 6
There were a lot of places this deck would have been screwed against Deathrite shaman that didn't show up in testing. The addition of 4 cards for the DR package actually makes the deck significantly less consistent.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
DREDGERS
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
DREDGERS
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
(FYI, after testing Wraith as suggested in Levin's article, I am totally and completely sold)
The main reason I lean towards LED dredge lists is that it is slightly more consistent and about a half turn faster. In UnLEDed dredge, my average kill is around 4.5, where my average kill in LED is around 4. Both get stuck about the same amount of the time against hate, though I will admit that unLEDed is marginally stronger against fair creature decks. I don't think that is a good comparison point, though, since we are already so favored against them just by virtue of being dredge. The main point comes against combo and control, where the increased consistency of quadlaser and the slight bump in speed make the matches much closer to even.
Each dredge player will give you a different answer on DR targets, but:
Ashen Rider
Flayer of the Hatebound
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Flame-Kin Zealot
Griselbrand
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Realm Razer
Are all possible options.
Yeah, if you are already running Dread Return, Ashen rider is the way to go with your sideboard. You will probably need some other stuff, but that can change depending on your build.
Exactly. I have been using 3 in my board for a while now, and they are a really smooth, effective method of fighting back against decks that are difficult to race, such as Sneak and Show and Storm. Unmask also has the Gitaxian Probe effect of giving us deadly accurate therapies. If your opponent cannot play anything relevant, we don't need a 7/7 angel, 2 3/1s and some assorted 1/1's and 2/2's will get the job done.
Leyline is good vs decks like that, the main reason I keep my 3-4 in there is that the mirror is tough without one, and reanimator is nearly unwinnable otherwise. As a curiosity, it is very useful against Past in Flames decks.
I've said this before, but I really hate Iona in the combo matchups. I would prefer to just do my thing with more disruption than start warping my deck with a plan that could already be too slow. Since we can't run 8 therapy, I would suggest throwing in Unmask in those 3 slots.
Yes, it can lead to blowouts, but careful, correct play makes them basically non-issues.
That is totally incorrect. We only go all-in when there is no other way to beat the opponent, or when the way is obviously clear. Otherwise, we should be acting like a disruptive, resilient aggro deck.
However, if you are going to go through all the hard work of triggering bloodghasts, take out bridges. They are fairly dead cards when you have no ichorids. Jam in 4 gemstone mine and hope that you can get there.
If your meta is actually storm, then DR Griselbrand/FKZ is a good option. Delver is so easy, you just need to make sure you have outs to Grafdigger's Cage. Would recommend like so:
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Firestorm
The big thing is to prioritize accurate hand disruption Vs storm Blind call Dark ritual most of the time, because it will kill you more often than any other card.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
1 Griselbrand
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I really love tireless tribe, but the above statement isn't entirely accurate. I ran LEDless until faithless was printed, as before it really was a question of "All-in vs grind it out." Faithless, however, has made it so that in the majority of situations, there is no downside to LED vs Tribe. Also, not having LED in your opening hand does not make the deck manaless, it makes it LEDless. Tribe has to be in your opener to be useful as well.
That said, I still think LEDless is a valid strategy for MTGO and small events, but I don't want to play against good players in a large event (GP's, etc) without a trump card against combo, like LED.
Iona is normally there vs combo and control, though you never cut breakthrough vs combo. It's already a tough matchup for you, and you don't want to slow down. I cut breakthrough because these decks will generally be beaten best by just going DDD, grinding out the games with ichorid. They will have plenty of counters for your returns, so unless you can sneak one through somehow, you just want to run them out of resources. Narcomoeba does wonders as a 1/1 flyer in these matches. also, don't be afraid to just cast Golgari thugs if you get the chance.
Pithing needle has to be in your opener to be good. This is true of a lot of our SB cards, but most of them are higher impact. Needling a Crypt or Relic is just bad, because your opponent would need some number greater than 2 of these to beat you, so you should be able to beat their normal draw anyway. Deathrite is not even a threat to our plan as long as we don't give them 2+ turns of breathing room. Scavenging ooze is even slower to get going, though a fully armed and operational one (3+mana) is usually just game over. Firestorm deals with both of these cards, and everything else they have played so far, and is a discard outlet, and will deal 4-5 to the face.
If you really feel the need for 14-15 lands, make them Tarnished Citadel. There are exactly 2 matchups where the 3 damage matters: Burn and Goblins. As long as you aren't sitting at the 0-2 tables, you should be fine (kidding, but these are really fringe decks that are not so hot in the current metagame). Merfolk will take advantage of the damage to yourself maybe 1 game in 10. The way we normally lose is "wow, grafdigger's cage, tormod's crypt, AND double deathrite? Yeah, that might actually be enough." We don't lose to damage, we lose to disruption.