So I've been super intrigued by this archetype ever since I stumbled across SaffronOlive's rally vampire list a few weeks ago. It seems really fun to play and pretty competitive. I messed with his original list and ended up with this:
I removed the vampire theme and cut down on the combo a bit. Instead, we now splash green for Abzan Ascendancy and have a bit more of an aggro feel. I really like leaning this way because sometimes just saccing for the kill left us coming up short. Now we are constantly putting pressure on their life total and can seal the deal with saccing out but we can often get there with the ol' beat down.
A couple of quick notes on some of the card choices: Abzan Ascendancy is so good it's worth the splash. It helps us beat removal, doubles our guys when trying to sac out, pumps our team, and is just a better lingering souls for us. Gravecrawler is amazing here. He starts chipping away at the life total early and he is an awesome repeat sac option. Tidehollow Sculler is a bit questionable. I have it in there because we want something vs combo and it has the upside of being another zombie for gravecrawler shenanigans. This slot might make more sense as Voice of Resurgence but that might require tweeking the mana more.
After testing the aggro list some, I noticed Saffron's new list with the infinite combo. Again, I tweeked a few things and came up with this:
I swapped Anafenza for Melira like everyone was suggesting and went with Teysa and Doomed Traveler as a way of generating flyers. After playing a few games with it, I am not sure if I like this version. I do love having an infinite combo in the deck, but it feels like I spend my turns durdling too often. There really isn't a plan B with this version and that means we lose if we only find 3 out of our 4 pieces (which happens more frequently than I'd like) or if our opponent has decent pressure. I guess I just don't like that most of our creatures suck at attacking and our only hope of winning is assembling a 4 piece combo.
So, what do you guys think? Which version do you think is better? How could the decks be improved? Are there any obvious cards I'm missing for the aggro build or for the full on combo build?
So how is the Tron match up supposed to go for us? I had a hard time with it in 2 separate rounds last night though admittedly I did have some rough mulligans in both games. I thought we are pretty favored because we are faster, but my opponents had Tron assembled by turn 3-4 consistently and then things got really bad for me from there. I sided in nature's claims to hit their maps and hopefully buy myself a turn or 2. Is anything else helpful vs Tron? I'm pretty new to the deck so I'm not sure to sideboard best for a bunch of matchups.
I've been having some success in testing lately with the following list. Just a solid, streamlined G/U build which can produce relatively frequent turn 3 kills. Not sure if I'm allowed to talk about budget here, but I'd replace the Yavimaya Coasts with Misty Rainforests, the Ichorclaw Myrs with Noble Heirarchs, and Giant Growths with Groundswells if I could afford to. This is the 'budget' list that I've tested thus far though. I'm pretty new to Infect, and to Modern, but I'm loving it so far. Super fun deck to play!
I'm a budget player as well, just starting on the deck and modern. It is a fun and decently competitive deck. I've picked up a couple of wooded foothills and windswept Heaths to use instead of Yavimaya Coasts. It's been really helpful for the mana and those cards where easy enough for me to trade for with them being in the current set.
I do have a budget question for people here though. I've been running arbor elf as a substitute for Noble Heirarch. I know the main draw of Heirarch is Exalted but I've found the Elf to be good to ramp into 2CMC infect creature plus protection on Turn 2. Is that worth it or should I swap them out for more pump spells?
Also, being new to the deck, can anyone give me sideboard advise? I've got the 4 Nature's Claims for affinity, boggles, and anything boarding Spellskite, some Dispels for burn and blue based control, Sylvan Scrying for Junk/Jund, and a couple of dismembers for random creatures that I might need to kill. It's always hard to know what t board out though because everything seems so vital to the deck. Here's my current list for reference:
Oh, and to top the cake off, we get a naturally occuring Denial of Service attack on the Wizards website. They've done something so retarded that sheer number of people coming to hear their "reasoning" and confirm the decision have brought down their website. Rolleyes
What the what?! Can someone explain to a modern newb like me why Birthing Pod gets the banhammer? It's not that broken is it? Also, why did Dig get banned? It's a totally different card than Cruise.
Holy clones, Batman! Clever Impostor is awesome! My inner blue mage just peed his pants. I had to double check to make sure that it would actually let me copy my opponents cards. So obviously it'll be an EDH staple, but what do you guys think about it's standard viability? You can Chord for it in a RUG midrange shell so it seems like it should see play, right?
Also, dat Utter End promo. I have never wanted to win gameday so bad before.
Alright, so since this thread has become Night of the Living Modern Players(TM), I'm going to attempt to inject some Standard-Player-Opining into the throng.
Are these going to be at all useful in Standard? Our known fixin's is: Scrylands, Trilands, (enemy) Painlands, and now (allied) Fetchlands; is it worth running basics in a 3-color deck just to get some value out of the Fetches? If you're running a dedicated-to-a-clan deck (as KTK wants you to do) you have:
6-12 Scrylands
8 Painlands
4 Trilands
Do you add basics and Fetches just to fetch? Or are these just for the Modern Masters 2: Electric Hypetrain Boogaloo crowd?
As a mainly standard player myself, I think you are right. The wedge colored midrange/control decks probably won't play fetches because of the reasons you mentioned. I do see fetches playing a role in more aggro 2 color decks like U/W heroic (if that actually becomes a thing).
However, I'm still stoked about this because I think this is what will finally help me make the jump into modern. Thanks wizards!
I like visiting more worlds and I'm fine with the core sets going away, but I am a bit skeptical about the 18 month rotation thing. I agree that standard can get stale and this might solve that but I don't like what faster rotation will do as far as prices go. I think this might be the final thing that gets me to make the jump into modern. The idea of a larger card pool and many more viable decks was already appealing but now (more) stable card prices is also a thing.
How does this deck play in comparison to something like a proactive Esper Deck? How are it's match ups? I'm assuming it eats most midrange for lunch. How does it do against blitz decks like mono R and more traditional control like U/W/x? What's its mono B devotion matchup like?
With M15 out now, I feel like Nissa is an auto-include in these kinds of lists. Untapping lands and making 4/4s is good. I'm not sure what advantages BUG walkers has of the Jund walkers list though. Kiora over Xenagos as well as Jace, Memory Adept for control. Ashiok is a beating against the right decks, too. Blue over red also gives you card draw and counters if you need them.
The strength of Floch's list lies in it's simplicity. It's is super consistent because of all the card draw (4 quicken, 4 charm, 3 divination in addition to Sphinx's Revelation). You always hit lands on time and can dig into verdict (or whatever else you need) quickly. Also, the Elixir/Sphinx's Revelation loop gives you better inevitability than Elspeth or even Aetherling. Also, by only playing 1 or 2 win conditions (Jace ult. or Elixir/Rev loop) you can afford to have more answers in your main deck, thus insuring your survival into the late game.
In short, Floch's list is the most controlling control deck and it is really consistent. I would argue that Esper's strength lies in its black spells. I think they give it a better edge on the aggro and midrange decks out there. I think it all comes down to play style. Do you want to completely grind them out or do you want to stick a threat and ride it to victory after you grind out their initial surge?
-The green splash really only gives you Kiora, The Crashing Wave unless you go for a more midrange list with Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, but that version just folds to straight U/W or Esper. Not worth it in my opinion.
The splash is usually best for Keranos and other one casting cost red spells that help deal with problems that regular UW can't. Personally thats Izzet charm as it can counter plasnwalkers early and isnt terrible late game *cough* Syncopate *cough* due to its ability to dig for specific things. Turn/Burn to either kill that Obzedat/Dragon when it comes down or burn a one drop. and then Counterflux from the side in the control mirror.
In my opinion, some good cards but not enough to justify ruining the simplicity of U/W's mana abase.
-Straight U/W (like others have said), is the most constant and the most controlling version. The Elixir plan is just a solid lock if you can maneuver yourself to that part of the game. Also, it has the advantages additional card draw in Divination and usually plays more counters than any other version of the deck. It's probably the best version for a field full of control, but it feels soft to threat heavy decks with lots of planeswalkers like Jund Monsters.
-My personal preference is Esper. It is more proactive than straight U/W which what I like about it. It has solid cheap answers to things in the form of Thoughtseize, Doom Blade, and Hero's Downfall. It has access to excellent side board cards in Nightveil Spector, Blood Barron of Vizkopa, and Sin Collector. Also, I have found Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to play a key role against G/W, Jund Monsters, and Mono B variants (who knew that stealing your opponents beefy creatures could be good?). The only deck that still seems to give me trouble is straight U/W (due to their wall of counters and additional card draw).
Basically I am curious about some of the decisions we have to make in games. I feel that infect is an archetype that can be very easy to play less than optimally and still win. I don't want to get into the habit of being results oriented in my playmaking decisions so hopefully some of the more experienced infect players can weigh in on these questions:
-Say I have a dude and some pumps (but not lethal this turn) and I know the coast is clear for the turn (either from probe or opponent being tapped out). Is it right to play all the pumps I can and hope to lethal it next turn? I usually go with yes because I know that those pumps can guaranteed be turned into poison counters this turn and they might not be on future turns. In what scenarios is this line of thinking a bad idea?
-In situations where I'm unsure if the opponent has removal and I have the opportunity to pump or leave open a mana for protecting the creature, which is the right call? Does this change if the pump is for lethal? What about if I have a 2nd creature in hand (i.e. to play next turn)?
-Against removal heavy decks (say UWR, for example) where we have Agent and Myr, which is better to run out first? Do we save the better one and just assume the first guy we play bites it or do we have to just make our strongest play and hope for the best? On a similar note, what about when we have Glistener Elf and a protection spell? Do we blindly run out Elf on turn 1 to get off to the races as quickly as possible or do we take the slower but safer line and wait until turn 2 to play the elf?
-Are there other key points about playing the archetype that I should be aware of? Any tips anyone can give a new infect player?
So, I am standard player looking to get into modern because I want a deck that I don't have to worry about losing every time rotation comes around. I've been testing out G/u infect and it's pretty fun because I've never really played a combo deck (yes, I know it's not technically combo, but it sure feels like it). Also, being new to the format makes me want to play something more proactive than grindy. I was just wondering if there are any other decks I should be considering.
Favorite Playstyle: I've been playing control in standard but I hate super durdly control; I like to have the ability to be proactive while I counter/kill things
How Competitive: mainly just for local tourneys and the occasional PTQ/GP; I don't have the time to travel for events really
Favorite Cards/Colors: I love blue and hate red; all the other colors I'm pretty cool with; Snapcaster has been a card I've always wanted to play
Budget: I want something where I don't have to play fetches or invest in $50 cards upfront. It's something I'm willing to build towards if I like the deck, but I don't have that kind of cash available now
Staples: Not much, Esper Shocks, Thoughtseize. I've only been playing since RtR.
Hey, so I'm thinking about getting into modern with infect. I really love the G/u version, but don't have the cash for Noble Hierarch or fetches yet so I'm thinking of building G/u budget or mono-green. Can someone highlight the benefits of the mono-G version for me? It seems to me that having access to the U cards like Blighted Agent and the counters/cantrips is just better.
4 Viscera Seer
4 Gravecrawler
4 Blood Artist
3 Zulaport Cutthroat
3 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Geralf's Messenger
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Spells
4 Rally the Ancestors
3 Path to Exile
4 Abzan Ascendancy
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Isolated Chapel
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Gavony Township
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
1 Dismember
1 Return to the Ranks
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
I removed the vampire theme and cut down on the combo a bit. Instead, we now splash green for Abzan Ascendancy and have a bit more of an aggro feel. I really like leaning this way because sometimes just saccing for the kill left us coming up short. Now we are constantly putting pressure on their life total and can seal the deal with saccing out but we can often get there with the ol' beat down.
A couple of quick notes on some of the card choices:
Abzan Ascendancy is so good it's worth the splash. It helps us beat removal, doubles our guys when trying to sac out, pumps our team, and is just a better lingering souls for us.
Gravecrawler is amazing here. He starts chipping away at the life total early and he is an awesome repeat sac option.
Tidehollow Sculler is a bit questionable. I have it in there because we want something vs combo and it has the upside of being another zombie for gravecrawler shenanigans. This slot might make more sense as Voice of Resurgence but that might require tweeking the mana more.
After testing the aggro list some, I noticed Saffron's new list with the infinite combo. Again, I tweeked a few things and came up with this:
4 Viscera Seer
3 Doomed Traveler
4 Blood Artist
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 Safehold Elite
2 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Spells
4 Return to the Ranks
3 Rally the Ancestors
4 Collected Company
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Stony Silence
4 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
3 Reclamation Sage
I swapped Anafenza for Melira like everyone was suggesting and went with Teysa and Doomed Traveler as a way of generating flyers. After playing a few games with it, I am not sure if I like this version. I do love having an infinite combo in the deck, but it feels like I spend my turns durdling too often. There really isn't a plan B with this version and that means we lose if we only find 3 out of our 4 pieces (which happens more frequently than I'd like) or if our opponent has decent pressure. I guess I just don't like that most of our creatures suck at attacking and our only hope of winning is assembling a 4 piece combo.
So, what do you guys think? Which version do you think is better? How could the decks be improved? Are there any obvious cards I'm missing for the aggro build or for the full on combo build?
I'm a budget player as well, just starting on the deck and modern. It is a fun and decently competitive deck. I've picked up a couple of wooded foothills and windswept Heaths to use instead of Yavimaya Coasts. It's been really helpful for the mana and those cards where easy enough for me to trade for with them being in the current set.
I do have a budget question for people here though. I've been running arbor elf as a substitute for Noble Heirarch. I know the main draw of Heirarch is Exalted but I've found the Elf to be good to ramp into 2CMC infect creature plus protection on Turn 2. Is that worth it or should I swap them out for more pump spells?
Also, being new to the deck, can anyone give me sideboard advise? I've got the 4 Nature's Claims for affinity, boggles, and anything boarding Spellskite, some Dispels for burn and blue based control, Sylvan Scrying for Junk/Jund, and a couple of dismembers for random creatures that I might need to kill. It's always hard to know what t board out though because everything seems so vital to the deck. Here's my current list for reference:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Ichorclaw Myr
Lands
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
2 Cathedral of War
4 Breeding Pool
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Rancor
1 Become Immense
4 Nature's Claim
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Dismember
3 Dispel
2 Viridian Corrupter
lolzers
Also, dat Utter End promo. I have never wanted to win gameday so bad before.
As a mainly standard player myself, I think you are right. The wedge colored midrange/control decks probably won't play fetches because of the reasons you mentioned. I do see fetches playing a role in more aggro 2 color decks like U/W heroic (if that actually becomes a thing).
However, I'm still stoked about this because I think this is what will finally help me make the jump into modern. Thanks wizards!
How does this deck play in comparison to something like a proactive Esper Deck? How are it's match ups? I'm assuming it eats most midrange for lunch. How does it do against blitz decks like mono R and more traditional control like U/W/x? What's its mono B devotion matchup like?
In short, Floch's list is the most controlling control deck and it is really consistent. I would argue that Esper's strength lies in its black spells. I think they give it a better edge on the aggro and midrange decks out there. I think it all comes down to play style. Do you want to completely grind them out or do you want to stick a threat and ride it to victory after you grind out their initial surge?
-The green splash really only gives you Kiora, The Crashing Wave unless you go for a more midrange list with Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, but that version just folds to straight U/W or Esper. Not worth it in my opinion.
-This sums up the red splash pretty well:
In my opinion, some good cards but not enough to justify ruining the simplicity of U/W's mana abase.
-Straight U/W (like others have said), is the most constant and the most controlling version. The Elixir plan is just a solid lock if you can maneuver yourself to that part of the game. Also, it has the advantages additional card draw in Divination and usually plays more counters than any other version of the deck. It's probably the best version for a field full of control, but it feels soft to threat heavy decks with lots of planeswalkers like Jund Monsters.
-My personal preference is Esper. It is more proactive than straight U/W which what I like about it. It has solid cheap answers to things in the form of Thoughtseize, Doom Blade, and Hero's Downfall. It has access to excellent side board cards in Nightveil Spector, Blood Barron of Vizkopa, and Sin Collector. Also, I have found Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to play a key role against G/W, Jund Monsters, and Mono B variants (who knew that stealing your opponents beefy creatures could be good?). The only deck that still seems to give me trouble is straight U/W (due to their wall of counters and additional card draw).
4x Breeding Pool
2x Cathedral of War
3x Forest
4x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Island
2x Pendelhaven
4x Yavimaya Coast
Creature (12)
4x Blighted Agent
4x Glistener Elf
4x Ichorclaw Myr
2x Dismember
4x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
3x Ranger's Guile
4x Vines of Vastwood
Sorcery (4)
2x Distortion Strike
2x Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment (3)
2x Rancor
1x Wild Defiance
1x Dismember
3x Dispel
4x Nature's Claim
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sylvan Scrying
2x Twisted Image
2x Wild Defiance
Basically I am curious about some of the decisions we have to make in games. I feel that infect is an archetype that can be very easy to play less than optimally and still win. I don't want to get into the habit of being results oriented in my playmaking decisions so hopefully some of the more experienced infect players can weigh in on these questions:
-Say I have a dude and some pumps (but not lethal this turn) and I know the coast is clear for the turn (either from probe or opponent being tapped out). Is it right to play all the pumps I can and hope to lethal it next turn? I usually go with yes because I know that those pumps can guaranteed be turned into poison counters this turn and they might not be on future turns. In what scenarios is this line of thinking a bad idea?
-In situations where I'm unsure if the opponent has removal and I have the opportunity to pump or leave open a mana for protecting the creature, which is the right call? Does this change if the pump is for lethal? What about if I have a 2nd creature in hand (i.e. to play next turn)?
-Against removal heavy decks (say UWR, for example) where we have Agent and Myr, which is better to run out first? Do we save the better one and just assume the first guy we play bites it or do we have to just make our strongest play and hope for the best? On a similar note, what about when we have Glistener Elf and a protection spell? Do we blindly run out Elf on turn 1 to get off to the races as quickly as possible or do we take the slower but safer line and wait until turn 2 to play the elf?
-Are there other key points about playing the archetype that I should be aware of? Any tips anyone can give a new infect player?
Favorite Playstyle: I've been playing control in standard but I hate super durdly control; I like to have the ability to be proactive while I counter/kill things
How Competitive: mainly just for local tourneys and the occasional PTQ/GP; I don't have the time to travel for events really
Favorite Cards/Colors: I love blue and hate red; all the other colors I'm pretty cool with; Snapcaster has been a card I've always wanted to play
Budget: I want something where I don't have to play fetches or invest in $50 cards upfront. It's something I'm willing to build towards if I like the deck, but I don't have that kind of cash available now
Staples: Not much, Esper Shocks, Thoughtseize. I've only been playing since RtR.