MTG Salvation

Quote from Glamdring804 »

Quote from Jenrik »

I never got the impression that the term was to put down Jace so much as poke fun at MTG adapting to a comic book formula for storytelling. To be fair, though, we had the Weatherlight saga before the Avengers franchise became so massive in theaters, so in a way this is all a return to what they've already done before. Consistency isn't a bad thing to strive for.

Jace isn't overexposed, in my opinion, either. I think most people that loathe him are trying to be hipsters. I have yet to see a valid case to hate him as a character or bemoan his presence. There is no logical reason to pin criticism of the Gatewatch on Jace or his involvement in the story or even on cards. Reactions to him are exaggerated and alienating to the majority of players who don't feel this way.

This. I never got why there is so much Jace hate. I personally like Jace. He's an interesting character, imo, and it was very hurtful to come here and see how there is pretty much universal hate for him. Ya know, maybe people are hating Jace as a reaction to Wizard's use of him as a poster boy, but at that point, they aren't even thinking on their own, they're just getting swept up by the bandwagon.

Quote from Jenrik »

My complaint isn't the Gatewatch being a thing. It's how the Gatewatch came to be that's the problem. BFZ was such a horrendously terrible execution on the Planeswalker, Zendikar and Eldrazi front (the Legends and Kiora were the only stories handles well, with The Blight We Were Born For being remarkably good) that it all was rushed, pre-calculated market pandering trash. It felt more like a profit obligation than a story. The Gatewatch formed almost as an afterthought, they had to win, they defeated absurdly powerful enemies that should have been spared for an ongoing story arc in the most repulsively undermining and anticlamatic way, and the characters were not developed enough to adapt to the team roles they were wedged into on a whim. Zendikar and the Eldrazi threat were a perfect stage to align a group of PWs against a common, universal cause. But I felt a non-casuality defeat of some sort would have united them better. Building up to facing such unfathomable cosmic entities would have been ideal. The whole thing just felt half-baked and too much, too soon. Like the Avengers taking out Thanos and Galactus in one movie, except we walked into the theater during the final battle scene.

For me, the worst part was the timing of the oaths. I mean, they all took an oath to protect the multiverse, blah blah blah, etc. before they had even taken a shot at the two titans. It's not just the writers assumed they would win, the characters also assumed they would win as well. Anti-climactic indeed. If I had written the story, I would have moved the oaths to the Zendikar Resurgent chapter. It would have been a much more thematic fit.

Agreed. At the very least timing the oaths properly could have helped. Still... What was the point of their victory and of sparing Zendikar if it got trashed in the end anyway? Literally no forethought or risks were implemented. Zendikar as a popular setting is there, yet trashed. The Gatewatch won, but at the expense of an ongoing story arc and major cosmic villains. The Gatewatch formed, but in a very anticlimactic way (heroes uniting for a common, nigh-impossible cause should be exciting, not predictable and cliche) and the whole thing felt staged. Literally no outcome was favorable for a deeper story, but only for marketing purposes.

That said, there is potential. Emrakul is out there and gave Tamiyo a spotlight. The Kozilek curveball was impressive. Ob Nixilis left them a score to settle. Kiora was humbled and could develop more. And in a way, the Eldrazi were a means to an end somehow, orchestrated by the real villain, Bolas - so there's somewhere to go with all this.

But I don't feel the unity of this Gatewatch crew. It's too superficial because it wasn't welded well enough in BFZ. Jace and Gideon feel like they're close, but IDK about the team as a whole. And a teamup like this is usually more fun when it features some past enemies that are forced to team up. Lilliana with Jace? Someone with the potential to double-cross, yet mysteriously cooperating. Two people that are formidable foes to eachother combining forces against a greater entity and still possibly failing but pulling through in the end by doing what they do best, usually against each other.

The Gatewatch right now feels too loosely aligned and will need more experience and purpose in why they do what they do and why they chose to do it together.

I never got the impression that the term was to put down Jace so much as poke fun at MTG adapting to a comic book formula for storytelling. To be fair, though, we had the Weatherlight saga before the Avengers franchise became so massive in theaters, so in a way this is all a return to what they've already done before. Consistency isn't a bad thing to strive for.

Jace isn't overexposed, in my opinion, either. I think most people that loathe him are trying to be hipsters. I have yet to see a valid case to hate him as a character or bemoan his presence. There is no logical reason to pin criticism of the Gatewatch on Jace or his involvement in the story or even on cards. Reactions to him are exaggerated and alienating to the majority of players who don't feel this way.

My issue isn't having a consistent cast that risks being overexposed. Although I preferred letting various PWs have sets dedicated entirely to them as protagonists, such as Elspeth and Theros, etc. I can also see how this Gatewatch method is also favorable. Characters like Tamiyo and Kiora, although not front stage, have their adequate screen time so far. I do worry about how much further such characters could be developed though, as both had some form of background before. They could end up stifled by the Gatewatch hoarding more screen time - but only time can tell regarding that. Arlinn Kord either suffered from this already, or was simply the Tibalt of the set - not relevant to the story but there to serve a niche role in giving players something they wanted. So it's still excusable.

My complaint isn't the Gatewatch being a thing. It's how the Gatewatch came to be that's the problem. BFZ was such a horrendously terrible execution on the Planeswalker, Zendikar and Eldrazi front (the Legends and Kiora were the only stories handles well, with The Blight We Were Born For being remarkably good) that it all was rushed, pre-calculated market pandering trash. It felt more like a profit obligation than a story. The Gatewatch formed almost as an afterthought, they had to win, they defeated absurdly powerful enemies that should have been spared for an ongoing story arc in the most repulsively undermining and anticlamatic way, and the characters were not developed enough to adapt to the team roles they were wedged into on a whim. Zendikar and the Eldrazi threat were a perfect stage to align a group of PWs against a common, universal cause. But I felt a non-casuality defeat of some sort would have united them better. Building up to facing such unfathomable cosmic entities would have been ideal. The whole thing just felt half-baked and too much, too soon. Like the Avengers taking out Thanos and Galactus in one movie, except we walked into the theater during the final battle scene.

Let alone all of it killing Zendikar as Adventure World, leaving it Eldrazi Wasteland War World.

Eh. I'd have preferred allied colored Commanders. If there are cool cards in the decks I'm cool with it, though. Hopefully the Legendaries are interesting too. We all know anything Theros themed is going to be welcome by me.

Kaladesh... eh. I wanted Egyptian World. And if not that, then Vryn. I didn't like Kaladesh but whatever. MTG has been crazy anyway so I don't mind sitting out a set.

Quote from Kruphix7 »

COuld she maybe be Bant colored? Lastly, Jenrik, your namesake's getting shout-outs all the way down the line. It seems Tamiyo genuinely cared about him and was expecting him to come back to her.

I'll maintain that I believe Tamiyo will be U/W this time around. Although like others have stated, she is very much solid on the Mono-U scale of color philosophy. Also, sad to see all references to Jenrik be about his death at this point, but very much pleased with the continuity and Tamiyo's concern, at least.

The story today was impressive on many levels. I really enjoyed it. First, we finally see Tamiyo in action and can observe her thoughts and behavior. Something I love about her is also something I found equally surprising - she's not just cold and calculating as expected of a strict Blue character, but Tamiyo turned out to be even more detached and analytical than even I expected. She's firmly on the Blue end of things, and of course being a member of the very disciplined, inqusitive and traditional soratami race contributes even more to her disposition in this regard. With all that in mind, it was impressive and surprising to see how scholarly and noble she was. Such a classy, intelligent character, right down to keeping her oaths. It wasn't just Jace's life in danger, her own would be taken next. Yet she was firm in her resolve not to use the forbidden scroll. Perhaps when Sorin saves Jace, he will learn even more reasons, from Tamiyo, to cherish and uphold his own oath to the Gatewatch the way she has with the iron-bound scrolls.

I love that Tamiyo has conducted experiments to see if the Kami can hear her prayers from other planes. I wonder if Theros planeswalkers pray to their gods like this when away? Regardless, I enjoyed her staying true to her customs from home.

Tamiyo's magic - this was my favorite and most impressive aspect of her. I love how she uses scroll magic, invoking lore to bring magic to life. My first thought was of the Kamigawa novels, when Toshi encountered scroll magic as well. The Kamigawa novels evoked the theme of Japanese mythology so perfectly in addition to high-end fantasy writing - truly notable works in MTG lore which I loved (even if the time I read them remind me of my stupid ex-boyfriend, if that's what we're calling him). I love that scroll magic has been adapted to Tamiyo as a soratami field scholar, bringing stories to life as spells. Such a classic Japanese mythological trope that was welcome and appropriate and that I was very much pleased to see again, this time unique to Tamiyo. I was surprised her stories weren't all Kamigawa stories though, since scroll magic is unique to Kamigawa. I suppose she adapted that magic to encompass all knowledge she has gained as a planeswalker to employ a diversity of stories. Which reminds me why being a planwalker is quite advantageous in many respects. While other soratami invoke solely Kamigawa lore, Tamiyo has access to her home lore and the lore of all planes she visits. The stories themselves were especially clever and welcome windows into past lore, too. Serra's Realm specifically has implications we can't decipher but can only have conjectures about so far, and as a Mono-U minded individual myself, I admire that unknown! Could she have been there herself? Who did she meet that was, instead?

I love how stoic Tamiyo is as well. But I was shocked at how cold as well. "Planes are lost and renewed all the time" felt jarring to me from a planeswalker so rooted in her home plane. Could she take the same disposition if it were Kamigawa that would be dissolved? A large flaw in her wisdom which I feel Jace compliments very well. He is also a Blue character, but far less extreme on the spectrum, so he can reason why each plane is worth saving. Jace can see beyond his own mission and beyond the fact that he and Tamiyo can merely jump ship. But this renewal of planes caught my eye - what does this imply about the purpose, if any, of the Eldrazi? How much have we seen of plane renewal, if anything? Has it halted now that two titans are dead? Very intriguing fact for a story presumably about the invasion of Emrakul. Tamiyo may be correct about standing against Emrakul being nigh-hopeless, but still. All planes are home to someone. At least the hospitable ones.

Then there's Avacyn implications. She truly is the most unique angel in the multiverse. Avacyn appears to be hold Emrakul back from completely invading Innistrad. Which may be why Nahiri needed to force Sorin's hand in eliminating her, completely Nahiri's revenge. What's interesting is the prospect of Avacyn having multiverse interactions, sort of like the planar boundaries of Kamigawa affected by the Sisters. Avacyn's role is even deeper than we thought, protecting Innistrad not just from its own darkness, but from the outside in, as well. Hence why she attacked Jace and Tamiyo. They're not just mortals, but alien planeswalking threats; and Avacyn is programmed against inter-planar threats. With her madness, she attacked. Avacyn encompasses so much protection, and it's easy to imagine why - the being who created her is a planeswalker himself, aware of the multiverse and blind eternities. Seems like Sorin created Avacyn with this awareness in mind.

I love that angels have an innate ability to sense when one is telling the truth.

Gah, I almost forgot soratami have Flying!

I miss the normal, empathetic, loving Avacyn who once sought to cure Garuuk and cast the Cursemute

Yes! That's the quote, by Medomai, which spawned the theory. Remember that what Medomai states about the origin of the gods foreshadows a lot in Godsend and the uncharted realms, but I must stress it specifically explains the origins of the gods, and later confirmed by Kruphix, even the origins of the gods before the present pantheon.

I believe the trouble Medomai is referring to is in fact the stability in the pantheon. Previous gods could be changed, unseated by newly imagined gods, etc. There was variability. But now that the gods believed in one another, they became a stable, more permanent feature of Nyx. They developed history and self-interest. Each a unique personality, each with a goal and a constant dominion over their territory. The Theros pantheon is so self-sustaining, in fact, that it's even come to a point where one god, Heliod, thinks himself as the king of all gods on Theros, and even operates to ensure that status. The gods have even gone to war over which alcove is greatest in the shrine of Nykthos. Basically, the Theros gods have resorted to the petty meddling and squabbles classic to the Greek pantheon which inspired them.

In Godsend, their stability is an issue because the gods have vast power. Thassa almost inundated all the land. Heliod almost killed all marine life with the sun, etc. They were a legitimate threat to mortals without Kruphix intervening.

I must stress that Medomai made these origin claims about the gods during the Silence, when the gods were barred from interacting with mortals and with Theros. A time when their devotion was threatened. A time of mortal questioning.

Then there's the source of why MTG decided to have the lore this way. In real Greek mythology, gods were unseated by new deities all the time. Apollo unseats Gaia and acquires the Delphic Oracle, for example. The Olympians unseat the titans and become a stable pantheon. On Theros, gods are unseat each other until the present pantheon acquires enough sentience and stability to sustain itself (one another). Mortal beliefs shape their behavior, but the gods themselves are ever-present even while changing. Ashiok confirms this, as mortal ideas and dreams "become proto-detities in Nyx all the time, but are assimilated into the respective god-forms that already represent them" or something to that effect. Any love of the sea, or ideas of the ocean's might, or thoughts of a lonely sailor out on the ocean will be assimilated into the already present and stable notion of THASSA, and she will continue to embody all these mortal thoughts. They will not, for example, form a new, proto-deity that competes with Thassa. She will absorb those thoughts and change/adapt based on them, but the shell (no pun intended) of what Thassa will embody will always be there as a stable container that stores every sea-related thought conjured by mortals.

Why? Because even when the mortals are thinking up new ocean-related thoughts, the other gods acknowledge their sister Thassa as the sea goddess, as the one who needs to be bribed so their hero has safe passage in the Dakra (for example), or who should be feared when building a coastal temple, or who is loved by Keranos, or got intimate with Purphoros, or spited Heliod. The gods, like Jay said, have actual lives and functions, thoughts and emotions now. They stabilized.

Quote from user_938036 »

I know its belief from the denizens that the Theros Gods are given form, but I've seen it brought up many times on these forums that the Gods maintain themselves via belief in each other.

This quote from blogatog it what brought up this question again for me.

mrtitanic asked: Given the argument that (1) The Theros pantheon is stable without mortal devotion [gods believe in eachother]; (2) Leaving Theros absolves them of its metaphysical demands for devotion; and (3) Thassa's Bident Dekella was born the same way Thassa was and did not "vanish" when removed from Theros [but remained a potent weapon of divinity] - I believe Thassa as a Planeswalker is valid and I hope she becomes one.

Now we diving into metaphysics. This is way outside my realm, but I enjoy discussing it. : )

The first part is what I call in to question. I've see it mentioned in these forums a number of times but have never seen anything that even alludes to this as part of an official source.

Have you read Godsend? I can't remember where I read it, but the Theros gods acquired sentience. Kruphix mentions that a part of him came into being when someone looked up at the sky and wondered - confirming the gods began as ideas, thoughts and dreams that manifested in Nyx, and coalesced into divine beings. Ashiok later confirmed this with their own experiment.

When Kruphix initiated the Silence, the gods had turned on mortals and then were barred from interacting with them. This harmed their devotion, but they didn't cease to exist because the gods had begun to believe in (as in, began to rival, fear, interact with, etc.) one another. They believed each other (and themselves) to be legitimate beings, and this granted the pantheon an Olympians-style stability. I believe I heard it mentioned also as an explanation for why the gods give themselves and each other Devotion when in play, and why having all 15 out activates them all into creature cards, too. In Godsend, I believe it was Xenagos who either had said it, thought it, or who had progressed with actions (in an attempt at becoming a Theros god himself) which implied this fact about the gods.

Hope we get a Theros one! I wish we had a vague map of the planes. Otherwise, great idea.

Quote from a7xjoker33 »

Like others, I very much enjoyed the letter format and the contrast of Geralf's stoic charade of maturity against Gisa's jovial and child-like nature (funny how she even uses incorrect punctuation in her letters, kissing several question marks. At least, I hope that was intentional).

I love how Geralf tries to pretend being uninterested in their sibling banter, and after a long and sophisticated explanation as to why he is above their games and on to better things, he mails her a gouty foot. He'll never escape his loathing for the sister, who is a complete mirror image of everything he's trying to be, and constantly ruins his plans. It's amusing to me how she's a constant reminder of his past and how broken his family always was, by the hints laced throughout the letters, and how Gisa is a product of that (right down to her singing talents manifesting as necromantic magic). She's his manically annoying sister and his dark past trying to haunt and impede him all at once. It was amusing to me how long it took Geralf to respond to her too.

Did anyone else get a rush of excitement and emotion when Avacyn appeared, soaring at Nahiri like a meteor. I expected Avacyn to win, even if she demonstrated some remarkable feats before almost losing to Nahiri. Avacyn was also just newly created after all. Then again, this is Oldwalker timeframes, so I suppose Nahiri being too much for her makes sense at that moment. But now, I can see Avacyn getting the upper hand. Too bad Nahiri twisted her to circumvent that mending power loss, and did something worse than ending Avacyn outright, even if she could.

I love Avacyn as a character. One of my favorites. I'm walking on eggshells reading these stories because I started MTG with AVR as my first pre-release. I had seen Innistrad and Dark Ascension and loved the dark world, wondering what Avacyn, this angel, exactly was. Then I really got into the lore and story with an amazing positive ending and the best pre-release ever. Holding my breath about the approach of Anguished Unmaking's story.

It's just lame to me to get new versions of characters that have cards and crowd out ones we wanted to see as cards in a return set. It's like taking zero chances on making this anything but Innistrad 2.0, repeating what was there the fist time. No wonder Jenrik was killed off quick.

I still think it's Emrakul, and I don't think even Sorin will know it for sure until Eldritch Moon. He suspects Nahiri's plan is probably to have him kill Avacyn and to eliminate the vampire bloodlines, and he's mobilizing troops to fight her? But that makes less sense since he could just duel her himself. IDK. I'm convinced it's Emrakul but I have doubts about what Sorin is planning.

Quote from Barinellos »

Quote from Jenrik »

Kiora is going to get wrecked. If the best you can do is a god hunter octopus against Arixmethes and an immortal god, you're finished. She'll probably escape with a lesson about tackling superior beings (knowledge that will be valuable against the Eldrazi someday) and send her to the drawing board to reconsider her approach.

She definitely didn't have a godhunter octopus against Thassa.
And really, if we're going to go that route, then all I have to say is Kiora can bounce things.

Ooh! I like this game!

Thassa has a counterspell. You can go count the devotion in the ocean to see how much you have to pay. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Kiora really needs an attitude adjustment. A bunch of squid isn't going to stop an Eldrazi and I don't want to read the story describing it.

#teamthassa

I find your attitude more arrogant than his, he maintained a non sarcastic and had no unnecessary hostility, yours is just picking a fight, there's been a good amount of people so far who want to see Kiora VS Thassa and what you want, drop the attitude.

I have come across a few of these joke pictres of the Theros gods on imgur and decided to share and ask for help in finding as many of these pictures as you can. I would really like to have every god with an instrument by the time the third set comes out!









What gods should play what instruments?
I personally want to see Phenax with maracas or drums (There's a REALLY bad one with him on drums that I chose not to include because they don't look nearly as realistic as any of these), and Karametra also on drums or piano.

I also really think Erebos should be the singer, and his Whip could be the microphone wire.

Quote from DarkRitual

Well, you seem to view it as a problem. And that Wizards has somehow affronted the gay community by not having a character to represent them. It would be one thing if Wizards stories were markedly anti-homosexual (having themes saying heterosexual marriage is right way to do it or w/e the case could be), but to my knowledge they don't.

It isn't said explicitly but it seems like the argument being made is one of "took them long enough to do this". And the attitude is either that the first gay reference it MTG isn't good or took too long or whatever, but again... it doesn't feel like a barrier has been broken that needed to be broken. The MTG community as a whole doesn't seem like a anti-gay crowd. Same with the people that make the cards. And just because they don't have someone that's explicitly gay in their lore doesn't mean that it's because they are against it.

Being gay-apathetic is better than being anti-gay, but stopping there isn't good. Lack of exposure of any marginalized group contributes to cultural erasure of that group. It reinforces the cultural norms that ignore these people as not being something to be concerned about or being worth considering. It's easy to write this off as not being a problem if you don't have any trouble finding people like yourself represented in media, but for many, many people this has a profound effect on their lives.

The fact that many people are so happy that even this token acknowledgment of homosexuality in Magic exists is evidence of just how starved for media representation they are. It's a sad state of affairs when so many people have to squint and search for even a handful of positive or even neutral examples of characters that represent their sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion in the media they consume, and frustratingly this is still overwhelmingly the norm.

I'm not arguing that "No explicitly gay people = We hate gays." I'm arguing against the notion that "No explicitly gay people = Okay." That shouldn't be the status quo, because it reinforces a skewed view of reality that erases the presence and marginalizes the importance of thousands if not millions of people, communicating implicitly that they aren't important enough to deserve representation in the media that we consume and that sculpt our culture and social perceptions.

Quote from DarkRitual

I don't think this is a milestone of any importance.

Now, I understand that in a lot of ways homosexuals are underrepresented in all forms of fictional entertainment (movies, books, tv, games, etc). But how often is someones sexuality assumed in any kind of story? Go to a party, and unless someone is making out with another person of the same gender, it's automatically assumed they are straight. So I kind of echo what luminum mentioned... hypothetically any character could've been gay and they just didn't explicitly say so because it didn't matter to the story.

The problem is that a person's sexuality is assumed by the vast majority of people to be heterosexual until proven otherwise, whether it's relevant in context or not. Having characters who ambiguously may or may not be gay/bi/etc. doesn't really achieve anything, because it does nothing to counteract that status quo. Making a definitive statement that "Yes, these people right here are gay" is a very different thing than "Maybe they're gay, maybe they're not, it's up to your imagination." The latter is better than "No, there are no gay people here" but it still isn't actual representation.

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Yeah. Samurai Tribal. Wanted to try monocolored, and this is what I came up with. The general's name works perfectly, too. The point of the deck is to pull off a lot of combat tricks. Let me know what ya think.