Flavorwise: at first I was thinking K&T represented a step forward as far as putting homosexual relationships on an equal footing with hetero ones. But come to think of it, while I believe there have been hetero relationships depicted, I can't remember one coming in the form of a legendary creature. Pia and Kiran Nalaar for example and Gisa and Geralf are each brother and sister pairs, right? Interesting.
Anyway, Ludevic doesn't look too good and K&T aren't really competitive but I still think it'd be fun to run them as a commander for those of us not using Zedruu the Greathearted
already.
It's clearly a Simic effect, arguably given a whitish feel by the group-hug aspect.
There's no red.
For their second try at four-color, there needed to be a reason for all four colors.
Reckless card drawing/looting effects are Izzet. Donate is both blue and red with Harmless Offering. From a lore perspective, most couples tend to be red in Magic. Equally, considering we don't know their total history either as one could be Akroan originally.
Yep, I suspected Akroan as well. If you think about it, their colors are all the Human cities in Theros.
UW - Meletis
GW - Setessa
RW - Akros
It's a rule in our playgroup, which is casual, to kill the Grouphug player first. I actually hate those kind of decks with a passion. If Kyanios and Tiro's effect had been on a random, non-gay, non-Theros legend, I would not have bothered to even comment on it, let alone run it. I'm disappointed they were designed as Group-Hug frankly, and was from the beginning. But not enough that it overshadows my joy at having Theros-themed homosexual male couple with beautiful art right out of the Theros myths about the Guardians of Meletis. This product is, ultimately, geared toward Vorthos and is a home run in that regard; and I am foremost a Vorthos after all. But yes, I am sorely disappointed in their effects, which aren't tactical and are exactly contrary to my play style or a reasonable play style. Group Hug to me is off-the-wall and for an old quirky legend like the flying hippo that just happens to be an awkward, amusing old card. It's not something to implement on a fresh, new, highly-sought and thematic card like Gay Kings. That's why I'm upset with their effect.
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Gay Kings as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to point this out since poor phelddagrif has really taken a bashing today: Phelddy is not group hug. Group hug helps everyone, regardless of whether they're stuck on 2 lands and at 5 life, or if they've got 20 lands and 5 infinite combos in hand. That's why it (imo) sucks. Phelddagrif does help opponents, but he helps SPECIFIC opponents (or no opponents, if desired), so you can keep a (temporary) ally in the game long enough to help defeat the leader, or offer opponents rewards for making the plays you want. I'd call that sort of effect "political" not "hug".
Speaking as someone who's made, what, 5 phelddagrif decks now And I always play to win. You'll never feel as devious as when you coerce the whole table to do your bidding while you hide behind a derpy hippo.
I've actually never read the card. I just associate it with GroupHug and loathe it. But I also don't like playing into politics either. In fact, I just build up my resources quietly and peacefully and retaliate when appropriate. Usually relentlessly. If someone has an Eldrazi in play they draw my ire for example. So in a way, Tiro can still be salvaged as a card for my play strategy by drawing away hate toward me while still allowing the draw that Ephara might have, with admittedly less flexibility and diversity of plays. IDK if I will be able to surrender the drawing for Flash creatures and token generation though, since I loved finding ways to profit off Ephara on other turns. I may end up having to build an entirely separate deck for these guys, sadly. I say sadly because I have so many decks and I was hoping to consolidate more of them with these 4-color Legends. But I've grown attached to their unique play styles and themes.
It's difficult to get around the prospect of Tiro allowing opponents to ramp. That can be scary.
I don't think Heliod is actually a villain. Considering Xenagos becoming an illegitimate god and causing a lot of damage and suffering on Theros, Elspeth killing Daxos (which was Xenagos confusing her, but still), Ashiok attacking Iretis and messing with Ephara's dreams, Dack stealing a gauntlet and Kiora stealing Dekella, you really can't blame Heliod for killing planes walkers. Especially when his information about them likely comes from Phenax.
I wouldn't mind an Agnomakhos card as well. Theros has so many legends that need cards IMO. Iris, Oracle of Ephara, Arixmethes, Adresteia (one of the Fates), Callaphe… list goes on!
I'd be curious on their colors too. Lots of possibilities, and I doubt both are those four colors equally.
I figured one might be UW and from Meletis and the other be GRW and be an orphan raised in Setessa who, upon growing up departed and joined the Akroan army, and eventually met the other in Meletis during the war and founded it together. Both share W by virtue of being kings and fighting for civilization and unseating tyranny of course.
Yeah, I'm not fond of Grouphug either. So that is a major downside to the card. I'm gay and have been campaigning for a card like this for a long time. I'm not too disappointed since they're the Guardians of Meletis and Theros themed, but I do agree that their effect is disappointing. I also understand why they're on the same card and it's valid to treat them as other couple cards and not differently, otherwise the representation might have been called into question. I do feel giving them separate cards with partner would still have been nice though. But regardless I'm happy with them. I just wish they had a different, non-grouphug effect since I can't stand those kinds of decks at all. Or at least gave their controller more of an upside. For example, instead of allowing others to draw, they can each place a land on the battlefield and you draw a card for each opponent that does in addition to the first draw.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
I was curious if anyone felt this way. I'm honestly kind of shocked by the number of people who are gung-ho about group hug, or have never played/played against it and want to try it.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy since I don't post as much as I used to, but I could have sworn group hug was pretty universally despised on the EDH forum.
It's a rule in our playgroup, which is casual, to kill the Grouphug player first. I actually hate those kind of decks with a passion. If Kyanios and Tiro's effect had been on a random, non-gay, non-Theros legend, I would not have bothered to even comment on it, let alone run it. I'm disappointed they were designed as Group-Hug frankly, and was from the beginning. But not enough that it overshadows my joy at having Theros-themed homosexual male couple with beautiful art right out of the Theros myths about the Guardians of Meletis. This product is, ultimately, geared toward Vorthos and is a home run in that regard; and I am foremost a Vorthos after all. But yes, I am sorely disappointed in their effects, which aren't tactical and are exactly contrary to my play style or a reasonable play style. Group Hug to me is off-the-wall and for an old quirky legend like the flying hippo that just happens to be an awkward, amusing old card. It's not something to implement on a fresh, new, highly-sought and thematic card like Tiro. That's why I'm upset with their effect.
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Tiro as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
Find it kind of irritating that when Kaya was printed no one had to refer to her as "that Black Planeswalker", Narset wasn't "that autistic Planeswalker", or Daretti wasn't "That disabled Planeswalker" but for whatever reason they print these guys and 80% of the time they're referred to as "The Gay Kings" like it's some punchline to a neverending bad joke. It's an interesting thing to be a gay man myself and appreciate the diversity and representation, but ultimately just wanting it to be a normal thing that doesn't require being notable and people not have to be like "Oh but they're the GAY kings".
I think to everybody using 'the gay kings' denomination's defense, part of it is because the name of the card is way too long, and their names also. I agree on each of your points though. I just think they should have had names shorter like Pia and Kiran rather than Kinaios and Tiro. Many of us are too lazy to remember a 4 syllables name in a card that we will never play.
That's probably what I think is the worst about this card, it's designed in a way that most players dislike (grouphug) so I think it's a terrible choice for a progressive representation. It should have been a card for a wider audience.
Yeah, I'm not fond of Grouphug either. So that is a major downside to the card. I'm gay and have been campaigning for a card like this for a long time. I'm not too disappointed since they're the Guardians of Meletis and Theros themed, but I do agree that their effect is disappointing. I also understand why they're on the same card and it's valid to treat them as other couple cards and not differently, otherwise the representation might have been called into question. I do feel giving them separate cards with partner would still have been nice though. But regardless I'm happy with them. I just wish they had a different, non-grouphug effect since I can't stand those kinds of decks at all. Or at least gave their controller more of an upside. For example, instead of allowing others to draw, they can each place a land on the battlefield and you draw a card for each opponent that does in addition to the first draw.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
I think this would be a horrible mistake, personally. I hate lore-less legends, it makes me feel less connected to them, and if a character who would otherwise never get a card gets one, that's fantastic. Card design rarely, if ever, allows you to design a legend around a character, and making that the standard would me we lose all the good with the occasional bad. I'd rather they made decent cards for Commander products, and then apply minor characters who could fit it.
Ultimately, I think 'Partner' is a fantastic way of giving cards to all those extremely minor characters who would never get anything, otherwise.
I agree. I can't stand those random legends that have no lore or backstory or even associated planes. Like Anya (who would have been Feather, for example). That's really the absolute pits. Meanwhile, cards like Ravos are great. He has a lot of flavor, we know he's from Theros, and could have future story implications. Still not as perfect as a past character getting a card, but when it comes to introducing new legendaries for those who want to see entirely new faces in these products, I'm happy they delivered a card like Ravos who feels familiar than something like Anya who is "random, unknown plane, RW Angel with name because Legendary kbye." And cards like Ravos felt a lot more inspired than Kalemne as well, who despite being thematic and familiar just fell absolutely flat in every respect. She's a giant. Who fights for Iroas. Woooooow. Damn Commander 2015 was just awful in every sense frankly.
*Sigh* I just was hoping for someone from Kamigawa. I'm a huge canine fan. HUGE. Foxes are my favorite animal. We'really probably never going back to Kamigawa, so seeing the Kitsune again is almost a zero-sum chance. Last year snakes got a legendary, so I had miniscule hope. Hell, I'd have liked to see a new Soratami or Nezumi. But alas, that's not to be. The legends outside of Ludevic - who seems extremely botched - Kondo and Kydele seem oddly....forced, for lack of a better term. I mean, I get the excitement for seeing legends from texts and stories represented, but with no Taigam, Tovolar, Arixmethes or Hal and Alena represented, what the hell checkbox were they using for this set? Everything just feels so random.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily mad for any inclusions outside of the disaster that is Ludevic, but it just feels so skewed towards Theros and random flavor text legends, when other legends and other worlds would kill for just a whiff of represnetstion.
Then again, it could just be me.
Kamigawa-themed cards would have certainly been welcome here, yes. I would love some new Minamo Wizards and Soratami, and Choryu is a character from the Kamigawa novels I would love to see get a card as well. Although he's a Mono-Blue Human Wizard. At least we got Kaseto last year, which I suspect was an experimental role. I'm sure it takes time to evaluate how that was received, so we could see more Kamigawa-themed cards in the next series, or in general, soon enough. I actually suspect Return to Kamigawa may not be so out of the question. As my second-favorite plane following Theros, I too would love some new and past character cards from Kamigawa. Ninjas alone would please many for sure, specifically from there. Samurai too. Lady Pearl Ear and Kyodai and Michiko as the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit are glaring misses. O-Kagachi too. But their time will come hopefully.
Still, the product this year is truly amazing. It's better than Commander 2014 even, or at least just as good. The direction these products are taking by making past character cards is already impressive and a good sign. I think the issue isn't that they aren't good (this product truly is excellent from a Vorthos perspective) but unfortunately this series just had a lot to do. It had to deliver 4-color Legendaries, then even more Partner Legendaries to satisfy various 4-color combinations, deliver enough past characters and still be designed well enough to play on its own or deliver pieces that support various Commander archetypes so players could still find individual cards to obtain. It's understandable that they can't be entirely perfect and slips like Ludevic might occur.
I will say, however, that Ludevic's card isn't just underwhelming, it is pretty bizarre flavorfully as well. I neither expected him to be UR, nor his card to do what it does, nor him to be weaker than either Geralf, Gisa, or their card together. His abilities seem off. The card was definitely a miss for me. But still, it's a wonderful thing that his fans have a card for him now, and as we saw with SOI/EMN popular characters who already have cards get new, additional cards for whatever reason. So he could very well have more incarnations down the line as Gisa and Geralf did. At least he didn't get the Jenrik treatment… where we got duplicates of Thalia, Olivia, Odric, etc. and Jenrik killed off immediately with nothing and not even a hope of a future card. That royally sucked.
Taigam, Arixmethes, Hal and Alena - I think Taigam will be hype for Return to Tarkir, or in next year's product. 4-color decks just aren't flexible enough to deliver most legendaries. For example, I knew a Mono-Blue Legendary Kraken wasn't going to be in a 4-color deck. It's just not feasible casting a 12/12+ with a no doubt Blue-intensive CMC in these decks. And I don't think Taigam is UW to have been the Tarkir bird thing? IDK. I expect they'll come later. And I don't think Hal and Alena were popularized in time to have made it into this set regardless.
I'm content with the Legends we got honestly - especially Kydele. Even if it means going another year without Arixmethes, Callaphe, Choryu and even Jenrik (who I've lost hope on frankly… Innistrad Legends always getting messed up).
Kynaios and Tiro are cool, love that their art has their statues being constructed in the background. I didn't notice the scaffolding until the larger sized pics were available. I will be interested in building with them. Echo the sentiment that we don't know which is which, but very small concern that will prob be addressed soon.
I like most of the other legends' stories and abilities, except Tymna and Akiri feel the most like fluff. They don't feel that interesting to me, both storywise and their abilities.
I am curious to see how Ravos turns out. A character tied to Athreos was def unexpected, and like the Orpheus spin. Just hoping he gets a decent card.
I do like that Breya tied together the carmot/sangrite concern for Etherium. It's cool to see that the characters are now learning what we knew.
Check the Rumor Mill, Ravos has a pretty good card IMO. Ideally he'd have cost 4 CMC instead of 5 but I still admire the design.
I really hope return to Theros not only has card for Arixmethes and Olantin, but also clears up the differences. I'm guessing Olantin is the actual Polis struck by Heliod and cast into the sea, and Arixmethes is also a sunken city-state, but only by virtue of being built on a Kraken?
Theros is one of the most popular planes in Magic. Haters still gonna hate, I guess.
As for the card, seems kinda fragile for a 5 drop, but if you can keep it around, it has two sweet effects.
Exactly.
I actually almost confused him for Pavios, who was one of the gay men in Emonberry Red who lost his lover too and then committed suicide. I hope Pavios and Thanasis get cards in Return to Theros, or at least a card referencing their story like Cathartic Reunion did recently for Chandra and Pia as an example. This leaves Arixmethes, Olantin, Callaphe and Andrasteia as legends I can think of which still need cards from Theros.
And frankly as Greek Myth world, Theros not only has many stories, myths and legendaries that need card representations, but it deserves to have many. That's it's theme. I actually hope Return to Theros approaches Kamigawa-level Legendary counts, but not THAT much of course. Theros block was also amazing for Commander and casual play alike. The gods alone serve as many commanders.
Theros themed cards are my favorite in this set next to the Rebecca Guay lands. Although I will admit I am not a fan of her Island, I had wanted that to be a beach, not a river. Otherwise, set is so damn solid.
Actually, this article is the entire problem. Neo-Nazis? Really? Way to buy into propaganda. And the Trump reference about "locker room talk" - way to push your political agendas on a card game forum and assume your opinions are the status quo, and the only right way to think. That's why everyone is sick of liberals and SJWs. Arrogance and ignorance. No one gives a damn bro, we're here for card games. Get over yourselves and off your righteous soapbox.
UW - Meletis
GW - Setessa
RW - Akros
It's difficult to get around the prospect of Tiro allowing opponents to ramp. That can be scary.
I wouldn't mind an Agnomakhos card as well. Theros has so many legends that need cards IMO. Iris, Oracle of Ephara, Arixmethes, Adresteia (one of the Fates), Callaphe… list goes on!
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Tiro as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
Still, the product this year is truly amazing. It's better than Commander 2014 even, or at least just as good. The direction these products are taking by making past character cards is already impressive and a good sign. I think the issue isn't that they aren't good (this product truly is excellent from a Vorthos perspective) but unfortunately this series just had a lot to do. It had to deliver 4-color Legendaries, then even more Partner Legendaries to satisfy various 4-color combinations, deliver enough past characters and still be designed well enough to play on its own or deliver pieces that support various Commander archetypes so players could still find individual cards to obtain. It's understandable that they can't be entirely perfect and slips like Ludevic might occur.
I will say, however, that Ludevic's card isn't just underwhelming, it is pretty bizarre flavorfully as well. I neither expected him to be UR, nor his card to do what it does, nor him to be weaker than either Geralf, Gisa, or their card together. His abilities seem off. The card was definitely a miss for me. But still, it's a wonderful thing that his fans have a card for him now, and as we saw with SOI/EMN popular characters who already have cards get new, additional cards for whatever reason. So he could very well have more incarnations down the line as Gisa and Geralf did. At least he didn't get the Jenrik treatment… where we got duplicates of Thalia, Olivia, Odric, etc. and Jenrik killed off immediately with nothing and not even a hope of a future card. That royally sucked.
Taigam, Arixmethes, Hal and Alena - I think Taigam will be hype for Return to Tarkir, or in next year's product. 4-color decks just aren't flexible enough to deliver most legendaries. For example, I knew a Mono-Blue Legendary Kraken wasn't going to be in a 4-color deck. It's just not feasible casting a 12/12+ with a no doubt Blue-intensive CMC in these decks. And I don't think Taigam is UW to have been the Tarkir bird thing? IDK. I expect they'll come later. And I don't think Hal and Alena were popularized in time to have made it into this set regardless.
I'm content with the Legends we got honestly - especially Kydele. Even if it means going another year without Arixmethes, Callaphe, Choryu and even Jenrik (who I've lost hope on frankly… Innistrad Legends always getting messed up).
I really hope return to Theros not only has card for Arixmethes and Olantin, but also clears up the differences. I'm guessing Olantin is the actual Polis struck by Heliod and cast into the sea, and Arixmethes is also a sunken city-state, but only by virtue of being built on a Kraken?
Exactly.
I actually almost confused him for Pavios, who was one of the gay men in Emonberry Red who lost his lover too and then committed suicide. I hope Pavios and Thanasis get cards in Return to Theros, or at least a card referencing their story like Cathartic Reunion did recently for Chandra and Pia as an example. This leaves Arixmethes, Olantin, Callaphe and Andrasteia as legends I can think of which still need cards from Theros.
And frankly as Greek Myth world, Theros not only has many stories, myths and legendaries that need card representations, but it deserves to have many. That's it's theme. I actually hope Return to Theros approaches Kamigawa-level Legendary counts, but not THAT much of course. Theros block was also amazing for Commander and casual play alike. The gods alone serve as many commanders.
Theros themed cards are my favorite in this set next to the Rebecca Guay lands. Although I will admit I am not a fan of her Island, I had wanted that to be a beach, not a river. Otherwise, set is so damn solid.