I don't think you've read my post correctly. I didn't say a planeswalker's ultimate can't win you the game, I said they often require you to be lucky or wait until the next turn to win. All your examples fit perfectly in those categories.
Chandra, Pyromaster needs you to get lucky. She can very easily miss or at least not hit enough to kill.
Ral Zarek also requires you to be lucky. Depending on your board state, one, two or even five extra turns might not do it.
Xenagos, the Reveler is another one that requires you to be lucky and to wait an extra turn. Sure, you can flip 4 Stormbreath Dragon, but most often you will not and will need to wait the next turn to attack.
Jace, Architect of Thought will rarely cast anything that can win the game on the spot, especially if you are playing a control deck. Though, his ultimate is still pretty good since he can replace himself while doing it.
Jace, Memory Adept probably won't kill anyone if you've been busy using his +1 instead of his +0. But he is a much better example of a planeswalker that can reliably kill the turn he ultimates.
As I said, Elspeth, Sun's Champion is the only one that can guarantee a kill more often than not when she is able to ultimate. Domri Rade and Jace, Memory Adept's ultimates can guarantee kills, but they require board states you are less likely to achieve by the time you ultimate, especially with Jace. As for all the others, while they may very well win you the game, they often aren't worth the risk of binning your high-loyalty planeswalker.
"The only Standard planeswalker that can win the game the turn they ultimate is Elspeth, Sun's Champion."
That is your quote. Which is patently false. How does Elspeth's gaurantee a win anyway? You don't think people are fighting off those tokens with Anger the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc? It's far from a guaranteed win.
The only Standard planeswalker that can win the game the turn they ultimate is Elspeth, Sun's Champion. All the others require you to play additional cards, be lucky, and often wait another turn.
If you reached the point where your planeswalker could ultimate, you are probably doing well and might as well continue doing what you were doing.
This is false. Chandra, Pyromaster can easily win on the turn see uses the Ultimate, in fact that's the idea!
Ral Zarek I would assume wins before the opponent has another turn, as you are going to get between 1-5 extra turns. So that is almost assuredly a win upon ultimate. I've seen Xenagos win on ultimate multiple times with hasty Stormbreath Dragons.
Jace, AOT can also cast one of your spells that wins him the game on that turn, depending on what you and he are running. I did it once post board recently in an Esper mirror. I casted my opponent's Jace, Memory Adept and milled for ten, then casted my own milling for ten and he lost.
Jace, Memory Adept very likely kills on his ultimate as well.
Presumably people are running Doom Blades in the side at the very least, so doesn't it make sense to compliment those with Dark Betrayal? It's cheaper and hits everything that Doom Blade doesn't hit.
I rate Ultimate Price at a 2.0 (out of 5) as far as sideboard cards go. Not that I'm closed off from someone changing my mind or taking the topic to another place.
A pure permission list is asking allot though. Ideally you'd really want better and cheaper card draw and Inspiration, while not bad, is just a really hard sell when you have access to Jace. Hero's Downfall and overloading on counters is all fine and all but Detention Sphere is just too important to not have in must MU's right now.
Draw-go was much more viable when Restoration Angel and Snapcaster was legal as it allowed you to play most of your answers AND threats at instant speed. Currently you simply do not have this option. Personally I don't think a pure draw go list is viable although you could possibly adapt the current Esper shells to be a lot more flexible in terms of speed, similar to Wafo Tapa's approach at the Pro Tour.
Bant has a much better chance at a fun draw go with counterspells, Revelations, Boon Satyr, Horizon Chimera, Advent of the Wurm, Prophet of Krufix, etc.
People did not think very highly of the duals in the beginning. Shivan Dragons and Serra Angels where the chase rares in the early days because of this I would not be surprised that if there is only a fraction of the original duals still in existence.
Let say that if the booster prices have stayed as close to $4 a pop since the last time WOCT gave us print size info. We could make an educated guess on how there print run sizes has grown in regards to there profit. If the company made a hundred million in 95 with a 350 million print run and the next year they made a hundred and ten million then maybe we could assume the sold 10% more cards. It is guesswork I know but if we could get the company statements we could get close to an answer.
I don't remember Serra Angel being rare. It certainly wasn't chase. In 95 people already knew dual lands were very good.
I ultimate Jace, AOT in competitive games pretty often. The reason people don't ultimate him more is because they are busy doing minus 2.
I ultimated Vraska twice at the same GP, although against different opponents. I've never ultimated Garruck although I've used him the longest. I've ultimated Domri Rade god knows how many times and never lost with the emblem.
I ultimated the original Elspeth quite a few times at old Standard PTQs.
I ultimated with Gideon 3 times at the prerelease for Gatecrash as well!
Because I think it makes sense to lessen the tap lands to leave my lands open more effectively to respond, while effectively maintaining the black colors without worries of getting screwed. TS' list isn't a full draw-go either, so I really don't think this become a tap-out just because I'm using Divination rather than Thoughtseize main deck.
Don't let me count the instants present and in the end telling me its a tap out, since it doesn't really make sense to call a deck draw go when it is running more than 8 non-instant speed spells. No offense on TS, but I do believe its not a draw-go either, I just don't see any sense to question that since all those non-instant spell are really viable in this type of deck he wants to put together.
Just in case you wonder why I post this your so called TAP OUT list in a draw-go thread, man, there's not much of post when I wrote that, and I don't mind if the Mods are kind enough to transfer my post to other threads this time around that the primer thread is up here.
I like the idea of running UW with infinite Sphinx's of Revelation deck, but it really doesn't belong to the Esper thread if I post. Also, I'm sticking around with Esper since I'm seeing some developments in minimizing Black enough to make it perform perfectly just incase I need it. I still can't afford to not be able to answer cards like Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra and Nightveil Specter effectively. Black somehow increase my answers from those planeswalker if I want to, so yeah count me on the Esper wagon still, but building an Esper in an incomplete amount of Planeswalkers/Verdict/DetentionSphere seems to be wrong just to reach the thread's title "Draw-go".
I would have to agree. We haven't seen a list in this thread that resembles a Draw-Go deck. Way too many non-instant/non-flash cards to fall into that category.
Where did you guys get this "judge" the 1st amendment doesn't apply here at all. It has to do with the government not private companies or entities like The DCI or Magic the Gathering. If an opponent requests for you to stop asking him questions and chatting with him while he thinks he is well within his rights as a player. I would at least report this event to the judges center or the DCI.
No one is forced to listen to or participate in chit-chat during competition.
There's a lot of lines I won't cross when I'm just an observer. If a guy misses his life gain trigger on his soldier of the pantheon, then no, I won't say anything. But if a guy is cheating (whether or intentional or not) I will say something. I'd say something to the players first, since in the few seconds it takes to get a judge the gamestate may have gone by a few turns and that's a pain. 2 mana for 2 damage and draw 2 must be the best burn spell ever.
You might not know it but if you did help someone on something like Soldier of the Pantheon triggers YOU would be guilty of an infraction. Those type of triggers are a test of skill to remember, other players can't help you from the sidelines.
Didn't know running 3 d-spheres and 4 verdicts wasn't running a lot. And why would it have a bad matchup against aggro when I was running 11 2cmc spells. I also disagree with you that aggro is our worst match up, aggro has been my easiest match up this far with both my draw-go and tap out varients. I definitely think I'm going back to the tap out version though, I don't have the 4th revelation so I can't really run draw-go to its full potential, plus tap out is just plain better atm.
Sorry I got confused, another person said "he (I assumed that was you) doesn't want to run 4 Supreme Verdicts". Was that not your deck he was referring to?
You said you didn't want to tap out so much and those (+Jace) are the main tap out spells...so which tap out spells were you proposing to cut?
RDW and fast aggro is typically the worst match-up for control and seems to be the same in this meta. I feel we can open a vs. or match-up thread to talk about this in any case.
Veroprodigy, I'm willing to discuss your opinions if you post a screenshot of a 65%+ standard win-rate or a high placing at a large tournament.
This!
So many people are asking him to be civil and try to actually make sound arguments, I'm hoping I'm wrong but I'm not confident he's willing to do that based on his arguments with everyone and failure to provide data, defense of his ideas or a shred of evidence to support his criticisms.
So I ask everyone to ignore the attacks by veroprodigy and let's have a good discussion about the deck. We don't need his negative attitude. If he's willing to change his behavior I'm happy to welcome him back. After all we should all be here to learn and grow
This is a neat list, congrats on the run tonight! I used to use High Priest of Penance a while back and had success with him against blitz type of decks because he could trade for a lot of stuff early on. I eventually moved him to the sideboard because I didn't like him against midrange and control much, has the 2-2 split worked well for you though? Why are you second guessing Warleader's Helix? I've been ok with it so far, its kept me alive in a lot of games. How does Rakdos, Lord of Riots work out for you? I am always scared to run it because I think it would be hard to get in play.
Congrats!
Is Cryptic Incursion main board necessary? Seems a bit loose.
No one ever claimed it did, just like in every other thread, you have trouble reading and keeping on topics at hand, but I don't blame you, you're probably too busy with your team practicing to be able to form your own thoughts.
You can't bring up your own arguments which no one argued to try and shut down a card, please crawl back to the Esper thread and troll and annoy more people.
Just like everyone always says, you just can't back up your arguments. That's why everyone asks if they can ignore/block you. Don't you want to be a part of the community and respected? There's a way to do it. You just don't get along well with others. It's too bad, we'll never know if you're good at Magic because you're too busy trying to tell people they're wrong all the time.
We are all here and waiting for the day you want to participate in a constructive manner.
This is an attempt to extend an olive branch and get this back on track, nothing more.
Is there an ignore list on this forum? Nothing this guy says contributes to the discussion, he just keeps saying things aren't comparable when they are. Turn 4 lifelink with no creatures doesn't do much.
Check out the Esper thread as well...he does the same thing in there. We've been trying to ask him to have more reasonable discussions to no avail.
Its clear you don't play the deck enough if you are that dismissive of gideon but are talking about dropping whip and playing read the bones against aggro?
No one seems to be able to answer questions in this thread.
I'll ask again...how is Gideon helping against aggro on T3/4??
"The only Standard planeswalker that can win the game the turn they ultimate is Elspeth, Sun's Champion."
That is your quote. Which is patently false. How does Elspeth's gaurantee a win anyway? You don't think people are fighting off those tokens with Anger the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc? It's far from a guaranteed win.
This is false. Chandra, Pyromaster can easily win on the turn see uses the Ultimate, in fact that's the idea!
Ral Zarek I would assume wins before the opponent has another turn, as you are going to get between 1-5 extra turns. So that is almost assuredly a win upon ultimate. I've seen Xenagos win on ultimate multiple times with hasty Stormbreath Dragons.
Jace, AOT can also cast one of your spells that wins him the game on that turn, depending on what you and he are running. I did it once post board recently in an Esper mirror. I casted my opponent's Jace, Memory Adept and milled for ten, then casted my own milling for ten and he lost.
Jace, Memory Adept very likely kills on his ultimate as well.
I view this as an ok sideboard card. Nothing spectacular in light of the fact it's dead against so many of the best threats in so many decks.
Does anyone actually main-board this card?
If so, how do you justify your choice over so many more versatile cards?
I find it to not even be a good sideboard card, serviceable no doubt, but not a necessity.
The reason I don't like it is because it misses so many things like:Boros Reckoner, Obzedat, Ghost Council; Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Nightveil Specter, Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, Alms Beast, Burning-Tree Emissary, Dryad Militant, Mutavault, Rakdos Cackler, Hammer 3/3 tokens, any of the Gods, Master of Cruelties, Prophet of Krufix, and a host of others.
On the other hand it hits good cards Master of Waves, Desecration Demon, Pack Rat (not well), Mistcutter Hydra, World Eater, Stormbreath Dragon, 5/5 wurm tokens, mana dorks, etc.
Presumably people are running Doom Blades in the side at the very least, so doesn't it make sense to compliment those with Dark Betrayal? It's cheaper and hits everything that Doom Blade doesn't hit.
I rate Ultimate Price at a 2.0 (out of 5) as far as sideboard cards go. Not that I'm closed off from someone changing my mind or taking the topic to another place.
Bant has a much better chance at a fun draw go with counterspells, Revelations, Boon Satyr, Horizon Chimera, Advent of the Wurm, Prophet of Krufix, etc.
I don't remember Serra Angel being rare. It certainly wasn't chase. In 95 people already knew dual lands were very good.
I ultimated Vraska twice at the same GP, although against different opponents. I've never ultimated Garruck although I've used him the longest. I've ultimated Domri Rade god knows how many times and never lost with the emblem.
I ultimated the original Elspeth quite a few times at old Standard PTQs.
I ultimated with Gideon 3 times at the prerelease for Gatecrash as well!
I would have to agree. We haven't seen a list in this thread that resembles a Draw-Go deck. Way too many non-instant/non-flash cards to fall into that category.
No one is forced to listen to or participate in chit-chat during competition.
You might not know it but if you did help someone on something like Soldier of the Pantheon triggers YOU would be guilty of an infraction. Those type of triggers are a test of skill to remember, other players can't help you from the sidelines.
Sorry I got confused, another person said "he (I assumed that was you) doesn't want to run 4 Supreme Verdicts". Was that not your deck he was referring to?
You said you didn't want to tap out so much and those (+Jace) are the main tap out spells...so which tap out spells were you proposing to cut?
RDW and fast aggro is typically the worst match-up for control and seems to be the same in this meta. I feel we can open a vs. or match-up thread to talk about this in any case.
This!
So many people are asking him to be civil and try to actually make sound arguments, I'm hoping I'm wrong but I'm not confident he's willing to do that based on his arguments with everyone and failure to provide data, defense of his ideas or a shred of evidence to support his criticisms.
So I ask everyone to ignore the attacks by veroprodigy and let's have a good discussion about the deck. We don't need his negative attitude. If he's willing to change his behavior I'm happy to welcome him back. After all we should all be here to learn and grow
Congrats!
Is Cryptic Incursion main board necessary? Seems a bit loose.
Just like everyone always says, you just can't back up your arguments. That's why everyone asks if they can ignore/block you. Don't you want to be a part of the community and respected? There's a way to do it. You just don't get along well with others. It's too bad, we'll never know if you're good at Magic because you're too busy trying to tell people they're wrong all the time.
We are all here and waiting for the day you want to participate in a constructive manner.
This is an attempt to extend an olive branch and get this back on track, nothing more.
Check out the Esper thread as well...he does the same thing in there. We've been trying to ask him to have more reasonable discussions to no avail.
No one seems to be able to answer questions in this thread.
I'll ask again...how is Gideon helping against aggro on T3/4??