Hi guys, I'm new to modern. (I've been playing legacy forever)
I played this list for a while with friends.
Never actually played the deck in a tournament but there's a Modern 3k event
in November that I want to attend, do you think that kind of deck has a chance of winning
a couple of matchups?
Also, is the white splash for Wear/Tear worth it ? Or should I play shatter in the sideboard and replace the mainboard Godless shrine with another lands?
Why no dread returns maindeck or LEDs? Are you not aiming to combo out in game 1?
Like Izor on this page I prefer to play the discard Dorks (Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe)
instead of the LEDs. I also prefer to play a total of 16 lands. It helps a lot casting all the enablers and card drawers and also the response
to hate in postboard games.
I don't like dread return as it is a winmore card.
It is dead in the starting hand as it doesn't start the dredge engine.
All we need in game 1 is a recuring ichorid with a bridge or two in the yard.
The board presence then grows quite fast, probably faster than the opponent's.
No need to dread return when you are generating 2-3 zombies a turn and tearing apart the
opponent's hand with therapy.
I play a Dread Return package in the sideboard but I don't use it often,
I used to play a Quadlaser build with LED but I don't play that anymore.
Gold lands and discard dork made the cut for me. I found out that I was always swaping the LED's for gold lands in post board games so
I cut them from the main.
As for my results with the deck, I toped 8 in some 50 and 100 men tournement with my LEDless build in the last two years.
I have no experience in a SCG open or tournament larger than 100 players. I have no idea if the build would deliver
in larger tournament.
Understand that a lot of players may disagree with me on what I just said and that's perfectly fine and they might be right.
Don't you miss Careful study?
It is a very good enabler/drawer and its costs blue mana, wich you can pay with any of your 12 lands.
Anyway, I've always been a fan of Quadlaser, there's no need for card like Dread Return in a deck that powerful and consistent on game 1.
Some Cabal therapy on turn 1 or 2 followed by Ichorid beats is all we need.
Game 2-3 however I had a hard time casting my answers to hate or whatever Nature's Claims and Firestorm don't cost Blue mana so there's only 8 land to cast them.
Did you ever feel the need to have some additionnal gold lands in the sideboard?
That would be a deck oriented at "Get Dredger into grave yard" and "pay mana for draw spell" G1
and game 2 = "cast answer to hate" and "cast enabler/draw spell ".
Game 1 against fair deck the list is ok anyway because we draw/dredge 6 cards a turn anyway, no need for DR
Game2 is another story but 16 mana source might be enough to play any spell needed to anwer hate and resume dredging and win.
I agree with Izor, most game I've lost was because I mulled myself to death (I'm on LEDless with 15 lands for now).
I played a lot with a Quadlaser list last fall, didn't like it, I mulled too much.
Went back to the LEDless but still, mulligan is a real issue.
I used to think 15 was the perfect number of lands, but that was when tarnished citadel was in the 75.
I don't know the math but, is there a "real" advantage at playing 16 lands instead of 15 now with confluence available?
Hi guys I'm off topic with this noob question but my friends don't believe me with some Flickerwisp interraction at the end step.
If I "vial-in" a Flickerwisp at the end step of my opponent then choose a permanent with the Flickerwisp trigger, when will my opponent get his permanent back?
I told them at the beginning of my end phase since it's the "next" begining of an end step that is going to occur is the game but they won't listen to it.
No Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Interesting. I have a love/hate relationship with the card myself.
The effect is good but the body is weak and does not provide evasion.
It basically sits down,never attacks and dies when the opponent is ready to draw cards.
I played Manaless LED and Traditionnal Dredge a lot this year.
And Traditionnal is my choice right now
Game 1 LED is the fastest granted, but I found that the speed was not needed exept against other combo deck,
wich may race us anyway with LED.
I always found siboarded game with LED akward. I side out LED to side in 2x Rainbows land + anti hate
G2-3 are simplier with 15 lands in the deck and it opens sideboard slots.
And I like dredging slowly with a tribe/imp in play until hate is taken care off and then explose with a colliseum/breakthrought/careful study.
Tournament results seem to disagree with us though.
You should be able to not mull to death.
Put some duress (or thoughtseizeinquisition of kozilekunmask in sideboard in addition to artifact/enchantment hate and your dedicated Dread Return target for special matchup.
I now run 4 True Name Nemesis, it wrecks fair deck.
Maybe you could consider a red splash for Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
They are good against Miracles, Sneak and Show, etc.
I played this list for a while with friends.
Never actually played the deck in a tournament but there's a Modern 3k event
in November that I want to attend, do you think that kind of deck has a chance of winning
a couple of matchups?
4 Bloodghast
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Gurmag Angler
Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dreadbore
Discard
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Faithless Looting
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Blood Moon
Lands
3 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit (poor man's blackcleave cliffs)
1 Godless Shrine
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Pyroclasm
3 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Dragon's Claw
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon
Also, is the white splash for Wear/Tear worth it ? Or should I play shatter in the sideboard and replace the mainboard Godless shrine with another lands?
Like Izor on this page I prefer to play the discard Dorks (Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe)
instead of the LEDs. I also prefer to play a total of 16 lands. It helps a lot casting all the enablers and card drawers and also the response
to hate in postboard games.
I don't like dread return as it is a winmore card.
It is dead in the starting hand as it doesn't start the dredge engine.
All we need in game 1 is a recuring ichorid with a bridge or two in the yard.
The board presence then grows quite fast, probably faster than the opponent's.
No need to dread return when you are generating 2-3 zombies a turn and tearing apart the
opponent's hand with therapy.
I play a Dread Return package in the sideboard but I don't use it often,
I used to play a Quadlaser build with LED but I don't play that anymore.
Gold lands and discard dork made the cut for me. I found out that I was always swaping the LED's for gold lands in post board games so
I cut them from the main.
As for my results with the deck, I toped 8 in some 50 and 100 men tournement with my LEDless build in the last two years.
I have no experience in a SCG open or tournament larger than 100 players. I have no idea if the build would deliver
in larger tournament.
Understand that a lot of players may disagree with me on what I just said and that's perfectly fine and they might be right.
What is your current build?
I'm a big fan of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe
Here's what I'm playing at the moment :
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from below
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 Ashen Rider
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of lost Truths
2 Dread Return
2 Chain of vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
With 12 gold lands it is a lot easier to cast enabler/draw spells.
Game 2-3 it also helps to cast answer to hate.
Don't you miss Careful study?
It is a very good enabler/drawer and its costs blue mana, wich you can pay with any of your 12 lands.
Anyway, I've always been a fan of Quadlaser, there's no need for card like Dread Return in a deck that powerful and consistent on game 1.
Some Cabal therapy on turn 1 or 2 followed by Ichorid beats is all we need.
Game 2-3 however I had a hard time casting my answers to hate or whatever
Nature's Claims and Firestorm don't cost Blue mana so there's only 8 land to cast them.
Did you ever feel the need to have some additionnal gold lands in the sideboard?
Creatures (27)
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
I consider Dread Return a token generator more than a "must resolve" spell anyway so...
Maybe -2 DD + 1 Ichorid +1 BT ?
A sort of Quadlaser without LEDs that would end up like that :
Creatures (28)
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from below
Lands(16)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
That would be a deck oriented at "Get Dredger into grave yard" and "pay mana for draw spell" G1
and game 2 = "cast answer to hate" and "cast enabler/draw spell ".
Game 1 against fair deck the list is ok anyway because we draw/dredge 6 cards a turn anyway, no need for DR
Game2 is another story but 16 mana source might be enough to play any spell needed to anwer hate and resume dredging and win.
Maybe:
+4faithless looting
-4Breakthrough
For more enabler at the price of speed.
Dredging 2 extra time in a single turn is enough most of the time.
But BT is easier to cast than FL.
peace
I played a lot with a Quadlaser list last fall, didn't like it, I mulled too much.
Went back to the LEDless but still, mulligan is a real issue.
I used to think 15 was the perfect number of lands, but that was when tarnished citadel was in the 75.
I don't know the math but, is there a "real" advantage at playing 16 lands instead of 15 now with confluence available?
If I "vial-in" a Flickerwisp at the end step of my opponent then choose a permanent with the Flickerwisp trigger, when will my opponent get his permanent back?
I told them at the beginning of my end phase since it's the "next" begining of an end step that is going to occur is the game but they won't listen to it.
Thank you guys
I play more rainbow lands and Tireless Tribe to replace
the LEDs
Here's my actual LEDless list
Main
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Mana Conluence
Sideboard consists of DR targets,Iona, FKZ, Sphinx Nature's Claim Firestorm Some form of graveyard hate (reanimator is popular choice in my meta)
Not as fast as LED Dredge but good enough until you get LEDs
If you prefer the combo finish mainboard: -1 Tribe -1 Thug +1 Flame-kin Zealot +1 Griselbrand or Sphinx of Lost Truths
Interesting. I have a love/hate relationship with the card myself.
The effect is good but the body is weak and does not provide evasion.
It basically sits down,never attacks and dies when the opponent is ready to draw cards.
I like the split between Aven Mindcensor, Flickerwisp and Serra Avenger
8 flyers is great.
Sideboard is the exact 15 as mine.
Solid list.
I play more rainbow lands and Tireless Tribe to replace
the LEDs
Here's my actual LEDless list
Main
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Mana Conluence
Sideboard consists of DR target Nature's Claim Firestorm etc.
Not as fast as LED Dredge but good enough until you get LEDs
If you prefer the combo finish. -1 Tribe -1 Thug +1 Flame-kin Zealot +1 Griselbrand
We are a "minority of two".
I played Manaless LED and Traditionnal Dredge a lot this year.
And Traditionnal is my choice right now
Game 1 LED is the fastest granted, but I found that the speed was not needed exept against other combo deck,
wich may race us anyway with LED.
I always found siboarded game with LED akward. I side out LED to side in 2x Rainbows land + anti hate
G2-3 are simplier with 15 lands in the deck and it opens sideboard slots.
And I like dredging slowly with a tribe/imp in play until hate is taken care off and then explose with a colliseum/breakthrought/careful study.
Tournament results seem to disagree with us though.
My meta has a lot of fair deck and few combo.
Main
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
You should be able to not mull to death.
Put some duress (or thoughtseize inquisition of kozilek unmask in sideboard in addition to artifact/enchantment hate and your dedicated Dread Return target for special matchup.