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  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Heh, that picture of Ugin and jace above is very interesting. I imagine how the conversations goes:

    Ugin: So, Jace, remember when you were flying around in zendikar chasing a pyromancer who stole a scroll? You guys there released the greatest threat that the universe has ever conceived.
    Jace: Uhh, sorry about that.
    Ugin: Sorry? Is that all you have to say?
    Jace: No, I mean... *tries to mind wipe Ugin*
    Ugin: I'm more than 33 thousand years old, and I have gathered more power than you can ever hope to achieve, and you try to erase my mind?
    Jace: ...
    Ugin: Alright, here is the deal, you're gonna have to put the eldrazi back there. I don't care how, just seal them back, if you want to ask Sorin, go ahead, I can't stand vampires, they are preposterous.
    Jace: Is that all?
    Ugin: Hum, while you are at it, try to beat the crap out of bolas as well will you? The devious bastard owns me one for using external interference in our fight.
    Jace: I thought you were the one that first called a ***** ton of dragons to attack him in the first place.
    Ugin: Don't question me young man! I am the Spirit Dragon! I am the most powerful being in all of the multiver..
    Jace: How can a Dragon Spirit die anyway? Aren't you dead already?
    Ugin: Oh boy, I hate blue mages.

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Well well... a little late to the party, but I will talk nevertheless: Nissa story was bad. But hold on, you already know that, I'm gonna tell you what the hell is wrong with all these stories (or most of them).

    First, ignore retcons. Think that you don't have any information about Nissa or even Lorwyn or Zendikar when you are going to read that piece of uncharted realms. Tell me: do you like it now? I seriously hope you don't, because it sucks. Every turning point in the story made no sense, it is like the writer couldn't put the pieces together and just went with what he had: Nissa and her mother being expelled of their tribe because she was having bad dreams? Really? Her friend Mazik easily the worst character in all stories, because he didn't NEED TO EXIST. He did nothing in favor of the plot, he was just useless and I see no reason why he was conceived or created in the first place. The way that things happened in Lorwyn, everything was just so rushed, so 'wtf?', that it felt ridiculous. She meets some random elves, agrees to go hunting with them and suddenly boom, fight, boom, aurora, boom, run. Blergh, that was TERRIBLE.

    Now, to address the issues with all the stories: it seems like they had excellent general ideas of what could happen. It is like someone gave people a guide: here, Nissa starts as being a seer, she is then tormented by bad dreams and her tribe grows scared of her as bad things happen around them. They blame Nissa, who has to go alone, running into the world and understanding the whole of what Zendikar represents until she finally has to confront the Eldrazi prison and fail to release them. That failure is so big that makes her planeswalk into Lorwyn, where she meets other elves and learn their culture and ways, until she develops a guilty conscious about what they do to other living beings, ultimately making her confront her mentor and return to Zendikar, where she realizes she belongs in the first place. There, this is the guide, use it! And the writer goes: "sure! I will ruin everything, don't worry!". This happened in Liliana's story, Chandra's and to some extent in Gideon's (towards the end). Honestly Jace's was the best, it had some cliches, but the person who wrote didn't overextended, he went just as far as it was necessary for a short story while keeping it interesting at the same time (of course it could have been written better, but it is the one that I have the least number of complaints about).

    I think they have bad writers. That is it, they have good ideas, but don't know how to make these ideas appealing in the paper. This is sad. Give me two weeks for each character and I can write better stories for every single one of them (although I would have to create the aspects of the worlds as I write, because I barely read any novels to understand their essence). It makes me really sad that these people are the ones that we are going to have writting stories from now on, because they are clearly unprepared.

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    A lot of the things that you said and your analysis are very similar to things that were stated here before. Did you read what other said here before or was it just a coincidence?

    In any case, I agree with most of the things, except for two:

    - I think Chandra's story was worse than Liliana's. Captain Baral was too unidimensional to me, and Liliana's story at least had the cool part of talking to Bolas and with Demons afterwards (also, the Raven Man was pretty cool), while Chandra had none of that. I do think that Jace is the best so far followed by Gideon.

    - I think it is pretty reasonable that Jace is considered a freak. You see, he lives in the outskirts of society, in a small town, where he is developing as a telepath. Because of that he can do things that no one can, like solve impossible tests. Add that to his shyness and you have the perfect target for bullies. I don't think it is an original story by any stretch, but it was very well handled and beliavable, and that is all that I'm asking for.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    This discussion about Liliana is running in circles. It seems that sometimes people ignore previous arguments and just reply to other arguments making the whole thing unproductive.

    I will say what was the original argument given last time: yes, fine, bad people can get away with bad things IF IT IS BELIAVABLE. Terror King said that everytime someone has plenty of reasons to punish Liliana or at least trying to confront her they let her go with no justification whatsoever. This is bad for the plot, it is TERRIBLE for a story if any character (good or bad) gets aways with things because he is a protagonist. This is the real problem with Liliana.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    It is interesting that Gideon's story can actually have such different effects on people. I see his story as something going well that lost its track, but others actually think that the ending was exactly what the story needed, oh well... About the relationship with his friends, that is also a matter of taste, and as a reader I should say that quotes such as:

    He reclaimed his spear, and turned to the Irregulars. Here they were, a bunch of kids from the Foreigners’ Quarter. Together, they had broken the stranglehold of crime lords in the Quarter, defended Akros from hordes of ravening monsters, and destroyed a titan in service of a god on behalf of another god. They were his comrades, his family, and his terms for accepting the Sun God’s Ordeal


    Is something that ANY writer should avoid. When you read a quote like that you see the expectation that the writer have of how you, the reader, should feel. You should feel that the Irregulars are a family to Gideon. But if up to that point their relationship felt bland or unexploited to you, then this sentence will just fall flat. Of course, there is a thing such as perspective writing, where he is telling the story from Gideon's perspective and things get mixed, in a way that you see how Gideon is feeling about his friends. But again: if up to that point there wasn't enough interaction between the characters to support this feeling, it will mean nothing to you, as it meant nothing to me. If someone else reads and thinks that there was a good relationship developing there, who am I to argue?

    On a relatede note: to me if they didn't cast Hixus aside, use him a little bit more and afterwards kill HIM instead of his friends, I would feel the loss much more, because Gideon's interaction with Hixus was much more vivid and realistic.

    About Jace's story:

    I will not say why I disagree with things such as 'Jace story was crappy'. I gave reasons why his story was the best some posts ago, if the person that wrote this actually cares, he can go back and argue against them. I will just say that I didn't like Jace beforehand, my first contact with him was pretty neutral, and one of the aspects that I most enjoyed about Jace story was Alhammarret. So, in any case, it is just ridiculous to judge, generalize and feel like you are on top of things because YOU didn't like Jace's story where others did. Comical really.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I think it will just be a difference of opinions. I understand the thing of textbook greek mythology, I'm fond of it, I wasn't questioning the plot (at least not until erebos showed up), I was questioning the way it was handled. If it didn't feel rush to you then it is an 'agree to disagree situation'. And I think it is very possible to better represent relationships in a short story so you can actually understand the way that the mais character felt.

    I'm not saying the story was bad, I enjoyed up until a point. From this point on, I think it lost its own pace. But this could be a matter of taste after all.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I'm not saying Heliod couldn't give Gideon an Ordeal, I'm saying that the way it happened was just too fast. He had barely finished a fight for his city, and was just chilling on a mountain and suddenly BOOM: God, spear, titan, death, erebos, more deaths, the end. If you look at how the story was being told up until this point clearly something went out of hand. Too much happened in the end, and the death of his friends was unbeliavably silly. It was Deus ex Machina reversed: suddenly there comes a God, he attacks the God, the God kills his friends. It was pushed, because somehow Gideon needs to have something bad happening to him so he can ignite his spark.

    To care about the well being of others is also a modern conception of heroes. That is not related to being fearless, he can be a martyr and jump to face danger while also being afraid. That would make him more relatable, less of a 'superman' version of a planeswalker. He got some punches and scars, but I never felt that he was in real danger, that he was afraid, that he had some obstacle to overcome. And I also didn't feel bad about his friends, they had almost no screen time up to their deaths, so that when they died I was yawning. I had barely seen any of them speak. To Gideon that was a great loss, but to me it was nothing, and it is bad for you as a reader when the loss of a main character isn't felt by you.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I'm probably going to be alone on this, but to me this wasn't the best story so far. Jace's story still stands out to me. I will say that I was liking Gideon's story as far the cyclops part went, but then it just seemed to become over the top. Suddenly he meets Heliod, the God gives him a spear and a task, he fights a Titan commanded by Erebos, kills it, and then try to kills Erebos himself and in one single scene all his friends are dead. This just felt rushed and over the top. The pace of the story was fine and great so far, and I was interested by Hixus and his relationship with Gideon, but after they defeat the Cyclops they cast Hixus aside and push some sort of tragedy in Gideon's life.

    I think it went out of hand. I like the idea of using hieromancy to fight enemies bigger than yourself, but to use the cyclops and then a Titan was not very creative in my opinion, and the whole last act could have happened in a different way. It would be great to see Gideon being scared or afraid at some of the threats that he faced. To be brave doesn't mean to be fearless, it means being capable of overcome your fears. The way that he was depicted he just seemed ready to face ANYTHING no matter what, and that makes the character less of a human to me (or more of an idiot).

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Quote from TerrorKingA »

    Liliana keeps getting by because:

    1. Characters in-story don't feel like making her pay for her actions. Compare that to Ob Nixilis, who faces retribution pretty much immediately, and is now manipulating things to reclaim the power taken from him. Proactive, immoral, selfish—Ob Nixilis is the black character we deserve, and the one we need right now.

    2. A lot of magic players aren't mature enough to see women being in distress without assuming there's some sexual thing behind it. If you're not okay with seeing violence against women, then you can't can't be asking for more women in a story about violence.


    I agree 100%. It is very annoying when bad characters get away from everything bad that they do. Heck, even the fact that Liliana is getting away killing the Demons with whom she made a pact annoys me. They are some of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, they should at least be able to curse her for life or something. I've read few things about lili and ob nixilis, but I already like ob nixilis much more. And I was cheering for Garruk as well, he should have chopped liliana's head off, now we have Nissa instead of Garruk as our green planeswalker (and Nissa is much less interesting than Garruk to me) and Liliana keeps flying around not getting any retribution. Man, I hope when she crosses Gideon's path he bringes her to justice.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I will just address some of the things that you said:

    1. I never read agents of the artifice and I have read only the first two books of Return to Ravnica block. In the latter jace was clearly a good person, in any way you can slice it. He was of course afraid and had difficulty facing his problems (sometimes trying to run away from them), but that doesn't make him bad, it just makes him human. In any case, I was talking about his personality as to how it was depicted in the Uncharted Realms short story, and that CLEARLY is a good person trying to do the right thing while sometimes making mistakes along the way.

    2. Alhammaret didn't seem shallow to me, he was clearly a much better character than the Captain that faced Chandra and on par with the Raven Man (I consider Alhamamaret better because he actually had more story time dedicated to him, so we could see him better). Anyway, this is a matter of taste.

    3. In the way that iw was written it seemed that the Sphinx was making a distinction, in the same way that in D&D a wizard is someone that has to study to cast a spell and a sorcerer just know them by heart or instinct if you will. I don't think that the spark being magical should make every planeswalker a magic-yielding character, that seems pretty linear and boring, and there are only so many ways that you can describe magic in a text without sounding too ridiculous or over the top. In Magic the Gathering Lore, as it is, clearly we do not have rules about how the characters use their magic, in the sense that you can't tell for instance how exhausted Liliana was after summoning a horde of zombies or how big of a horde she could summon, or anything like that. You just get few hints saying "felt the black mana" or in the case of Chandra "channelized her anger" (something like that).

    That is truly bad for any story in general because you basically don't know what the character limit is or how many different things he can do, and every time he does something new and crazy using magic it will look like he did that just out of plot convenience. That is why Jace's story stands out to me: he actually had a conundrum to solve - how could he know about the bad things his master telepath had done unto him without the master finding out and making he forget? The only possible way was if he had to forget as well, and then using some magic to accomplish that. This is a good use of magic because it poses a real problem that a magic world with telepaths floating around would have, and it gives you a clever and objective way of using magic without looking over the top: you erase your own memories. I didn't see anything even remotely similar to that in Chandra's or Liliana's story. One example of how it could have been done in Liliana's case would be if she somehow needed to acquire information from someone and the person kills himself to conceal it. Then she uses her necromancy to revive him and force him to speak anyway. That is a good use of magical power, you are using magic to support a clever solution for a problem that you otherwise wouldn't be able to solve, not just making random shadow claws ripping people apart. Claws that you just can't grasp the limitations or how they are suppose to work whatsoever.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Harbinger of the Tides
    Quote from skraz1265 »


    There's also the issue of complexity. They want the complexity of cards at each rarity to go up, with commons being the most simple and straightforward, and mythics being the most complex, either in terms of rules complexity or the effect on the board/players. This card is way more complex than any uncommons we've been seeing in a long time. It has flash, which already takes it out of common territory. That flash requires an additional mana cost which bumps up the complexity even more. On top of that it bounces a creature, but not any creature, just tapped ones.

    That all adds together to make a very complex card, which makes it hard for me to imagine this at anything other than rare.


    Yeah, you are right. Complexity. Like Darksteel Forge, or Jenara, or Lotus Cobra, or Mox Opal, or Novablast Wurm, etc. Mythics aren't always complex, they just need to have unique/powerful effects. Sometimes that can be pretty simple.

    This Merfolk is pretty good for a standard monoblue devotion deck. That being said, I would be astonished if it saw play in Modern. Merfolks have problems with mass removals (decks such as tron), and they don't need a card to gain this sort of tempo advantage, they just need to beatdown strong and fast. Most of their creatures will be bigger than their opponents, and if they start dying this card won't help with that. This card does not address any of merfolk's major weaknesses, and I can't see it being playable outside of one or two lonely copies on sideboard possibly against twin.


    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Jace's was the best story so far. His personality was well handled (not sure why people say they can't see his personality, he is clearly a regular person trying to do the right thing that sometimes falls into temptation or becomes guided by his sentiments instead of his rationality), and Alhammaret was the best character so far. He was complex, his intentions were not clear cut, and in the end you don't know if he was doing the things that he was doing out of greed, pragmatism, logic or something underneath, but you could feel a sense of reason coming from him, and if anyone asked me I wouldn't say that he was a Dimir character like Lazav. He was deceitful and manipulative, yes, but that is what blue is all about, he didn't actually hurt people to achieve his goal and keep his position, he was actually preventing a war to get worse.

    I didn't feel like this was a rip-off or an unoriginal story, specially because a telepath would probably hurt someone one day, and would need the help of other telepath. I think everyone is focusing too much on the short scene with the three kids, where the writer was just clearly displaying how hard it was for Jace to handle his powers in many situations. If there is something that bothers me is the fact that all three walkers so far were 'spellcasters' as the sphinx define, meaning that they knew how to use spells without actually learning them, and that is getting boring and repetitive, I hope Gideon and Nissa can kick some asses without using any spells at first.

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I know that all attentions now will be dedicated to Jace, but I want to make some quick observations about Liliana's story:

    Her story was much better than Chandra's, and I think that is mainly because we could see her not only young, but after gaining incredible power. The way I see it, the worst part of the story was precisely the one with her brother: the way that the 'zombification' of her brother happened was badly handled. It would have been much better if he actually makes a recovery and slowly turns himself into a zombie, acting weirdly and losing his mind bit by bit. That is much more horrifying than him turning into some powerful black mana zombie that talks ans shoots darkness from his fingertips. Besides that, I hate the way they initially developed Liliana's power. It makes sense that Chandra will have a power based upon instinct, but necromancy should come with precision, rituals and study, and although they point out that Liliana did study a lot, when she was casting her spells it felt like it was more of a 'I guess if I follow my gut it will work' type of spell, and that to me does not fit necromancy (fits very well with pyromancy).

    I liked more the characters appearing in her short story than the ones from Chandra: The Raven Man, Kothoped and of course, Nicol Bolas. All of them had something to offer (lady Ana did too, but she was much more secondary the way I see it). It bothers me that she mentions having bested the Raven Man with no further explanation, what does that even mean? This kind of cliffhanger is not great. I think that her fight with Kothoped was a little too extended, but I liked the personality of the Demon, and the Raven Man was great, a very misterious character that I hope it will show up again with more to offer. Overall Liliana's personality was fitting, although I think she changed too quickly into her 'evil being' once the Raven Man convinced her to use her power. I think more effort should have been dedicated to this development.

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Quote from Gutterstorm »
    I think you're missing that Baral, the captain, and Chandra are the only magic users on the plane so far as we know and Baral seems to indicate similarly. Chandra also has the unfortunate position of wielding a magic which those around her view as a bringer of chaos and destruction which is why her magic was handled so harshly.

    As for what you say is excessive use of description: It was important that the reader NOT get to interpret there. You can interpret that in many ways but Doug found it important to imply as strongly as possible how oppressive and cold Baral was. Just how far to the other end of the spectrum he was from Chandra. They were foils to each other in a way.


    I didn't miss that. That simply does not matter. It does not matter because it doesn't change the way the character (Baral) was handled. He was unidimensional and with no identifiable motivations.

    The thing about writing is: once you make a good character, and use him well, it will be clear to you and any other reader the main traits of his personality (like being cold and oppressive). Explicitly saying it so one or twice is fine, but doing this a lot is excessive guidance, and you take away the different interpretations the reader can have of your character (which would hardly happen with Baral in the first place, because he is a bad character).
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    It's my first time commenting here on lore, and I will do so as someone that loves magic storylines but has had very few contact with it aside from flavor texts. I will address Chandra's story, because I just read it (I will soon read Liliana's), and I will not discuss lore implications, because all and all it seems clear what happened (the only thing not clear is if her mother is alive or not), I will discuss the writing quality (in terms of story quality and writing itself).

    I will say the story was medium, at best. The story was predictable, to read everything was a real drag even from a small story arch such as this one. The whole thing with the soldiers clearly was blown out of proportion, going as far as the Captain spending a lot of resources to track one single pyromancer. Captain Baral himself was a bad character. Do you know how you tell a bad character? One-dimensionality. You couldn't feel any motivation in him, he was just evil for the sake of being evil, it was not clear what about pyromancers made him so angry, and why he was willing to go as far as burning down innocent people to incriminate a pyromancer. Chandra being attacked by the constructs also made no sense, what exactly triggered the constructs in the foundry? Was it a defense system? That would happen to anyone? So why did Pashiri told her it was safe in there?

    Given the problems, I will mention some good things: I think they were spot-on with Chandra's personality, which is a very good thing, and the way they described her power and how it made her feel was very vivid and interesting. I think if they had dedicated the same effort they did on Chandra to some of the other characters, the story would have been better.

    About the writing itself, and not the story, I think it was good. It is complicated to judge since english isn't my mother tongue, but it was overall a good vocabulary range and use of metaphors, things that make the story more animated. I do think that the writer went a little too far in some parts, giving one simple example:

    “I don’t think you understand, child. You’re already in violation of the law in a half-dozen ways. Comply, or I will make you comply.” He put his hand on Chandra’s shoulder—gently, but with no tenderness in it. It was a clinical touch, somehow revolting in its cold detachment.

    This was extracted from the text. The last phrase was not needed, describing the way the touch felt takes away some of the reader's interpretation. It was clear from the first part: gently, but with no tenderness. Now you can interpret that as you wish, but if the author gives this kind of excessive description it makes the story clunky, and undermines the reader experience by taking away the way he or she can see things when reading.


    Anyway, that is my first analysis, I will look at Liliana later and say what I think.

    EDIT: just fixed some grammar mistakes (I'm sure there are plenty still).
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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