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  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    People had strong feelings about what they thought of the UR and wanted to defend the writer. I don't think anyone was rude, but some were hard-headed. I do think that the problem of the conversation is now in the core, and it cannot be resolved. I think magic, specially the main characters of it, should speak in a way more similar to the examples that I have given, because I do think that would make it more consistent with the style of fantasy that is based upon. Most people here disagree with me and think that I'm comparing two different things, while to me clearly it is the same thing.

    It is funny that before I posted the 'corrected' version there were some people that agreed with me in the matter of being childish, etc. And after I posted my alterations there was a lot of nitpicking and criticism saying that the original was better, oh well... Arguments in the internet are hard man.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I actually almost took a part from the banker's son with his lover, but it was more verbose than Marguerite's passage (yes, it was). And Marguerite talked like that throughout the book, not only in that particular passage. I can't find the perfect situation, but I chose a pretty close one. I'm not saying that's how people talked in the past, since I think this conversation is fruitless because we have no recorded proof from that time, but I was showing books using characters from past times - acclaimed books - that use more fancy words. I would have more examples, but I think the conversation has gone too far.

    If everyone likes the way Jace and Liliana were depicted, fine. To me it looks bad, not bad to the point that I will stop reading, but just inappropriate. I gave examples why it is bad, examples that I took from good literature from books that depict characters from less modern times. No one needs to agree with my standards, but if people disagree with them they shouldn't throw such low punches going as far as to say that 'my examples were bad' when they are clearly from good books by good writers. It is just sad to see that.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    I used George R.R. Martin as an example because he is familiar with the genre. You can look for yourself about the accursed kings and the warlord chronicles and you will see that most critics praise Maurice and Cornwell. Attacking Martin won't change this my friend, and your opinion definetly will not change this. Look it up!
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    It doesn't bother me that they are talking in english, the choice of words is what bothered me. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal, I just expanded it and showed why I think things should be different and how it wouldn't take that much work to change things. In any case, if it is just me unhappy about the state of things, then I suppose the creative team is doing a pretty good job.

    You did point out something relevant: different planes SHOULD have different languages. Heck, even different races would have different languages to use among them, and the planeswalkers apparently speak all of them. Is there any sort of explanation for that? And you said it jokingly, but if the creative team put some effort to create different accents and expressions for different planes I would find it amazing work as it would give consistency to the multiverse of magic, individualizing more each world. And magic started as a game basically inspired in Dungeons and Dragons that was inspired in medieval fantasy. Nowadays it can be a different monster, but it still has roots in that, so I think the writers could show it by having more care with choice of words.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Well my friend, the two adult pieces I quoted are from critically acclaimed series of books, and most people recognize it as top notch literature. George R.R. Martin for instance has expressed his liking of the novels from the accursed kings series (the second extract, taken from the book Iron King). You can dislike it, but I assure that these are works that will be remembered for a real long time, and the Uncharted Realms would have much to learn with it.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Just for the sake of continuation, let's discuss Ravnica for a while. In the Modern era we have the Renaissance, the great travels and expeditions around the world, the prevalence of critical thinking and the use of reason instead of faith. We also had the Industrial Revolution and the increase in use of science and technology. Now, Ravnica DOES have some aspects of a Modern era, such as the development of science and techonology, specially in the hand of the Izzet League and the Simic, and it probably has some success in independent thinking as well, and I'm not sure about that, but maybe in Ravnica they have some sort of press and what appears to be a capitalism system implanted.

    That being said, they also have the Orzhov, who work pretty much as the Church did in the Middle Ages, asking for tribute from the followers and thinking of themselves as the big deal. We have the selesnya, druids and mages connected to nature who are very similar to some cultures that lived in the Middle ages or even before that in Britain, we have the Gruul, animistis and mages of nature related to some northern european cultures and we have plenty of other examples. I can't extend too mUCH without doing deep research, but Ravnica is somewhere in the middle ground of a truly antique medieval setting and a steam punk culture, specially because the guilds are so different from each other. Remember that we also had strong urbanization in the Roman Empire, and that went from the classical antiquity to the late middle ages, so just because we have big cities doesn't mean we are in a modern era.

    Two things are of note though:

    - "Modern" era doesn't mean our era (we are the contemporary history, that some consider a part of the late modern era, whatever). In the onset of the modern era people still talked pretty differently from how we do nowadays, and you would expect yet a very different vocabulary from the one used in uncharted realms. Jace and Liliana talked like teenagers from our time, from our decade, and that is bad to me, because we are positioned in a completely different time. If you think they sounded like adults, they still sounded like adults from OUR time, no wonder everyone said 'well, that's how I would have a conversation like that'. Precisely, you, a living being from the year 2015, not two mages from a completetly different setting. Unless you want to argue that Ravnica is similar to the cities we have nowadays, and I would be amused to see you trying.

    - They are not citizens from Ravnica. Although Jace lived a pretty long time in Ravnica, he has visited other planes of existence, and Liliana comes from Dominaria, a plane as inspired in medieval times as you can get. They have visited many planes and plenty of them will look even more similar to the medieval ages. They are planeswalkers, Liliana in particular old and powerful, they should have a more robust vocabulary and they should talk in a more refined way, different from the colloquialism I've seen so far, one that is so similar to OUR way of speaking.

    Do I really care about that? A little. Not absurdly, it will not keep me from reading the URs, but it is something that I think should be adressed.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    The first thing I said is that the UR was good, although not in the same level of the last one (Limits, with Gideon). I'm not nitpicking, I was just expanding and defending my point, and I think the content of the UR was already discussed at length.

    It is very interesting to discuss writing style though, because most people care only about what a story is saying, while ignoring that how it is saying is truly important. Just from this small discussion on the forum I've found that most people here are fine with a modern way of depicting conversation, even if the characters do not live in a modern era. To me that makes the work of the creative team easier, because they can write in a 'sitcom' style as someone pointed out before and the story will sound solid.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Two conversations from books for kids or from our times:

    Extracted from Maze of Bones, by Rick Riordan (same guy who wrote Percy Jackson):

    "Remind me to fire your au pair as soon as we return to Boston" Beatrice grumbled. "You two have been estirely too spoiled"
    "Nellie's nice!" Dan protested.
    "Hmph! This Nellie almost let you burn down the neighbor's apartment building!"
    "Exactly!"

    "What are you readin this time?" he asked. "Medieval European Doorknobs? Barh Towels Through the Ages?"
    Amy gave him an ugly face - or an unglier-than-usual face.
    "None of your business, dweeb"
    "You can't call a ninja lord dweeb. You have disgraced the family. You must commit seppuku".


    Extracted from Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman:

    "Jesus!" said Richard, and he threw the remote control at it as hard as he could. It chrashed into the videos with a bang. Of the dark shape there was no sign.
    "Richard!" said Door.
    "It's okay" he explained. "I think it was just a rat or something."
    She glared at him. "Of course it was a rat. You'll have it scared now, poor thing".
    She looked around the room, then made a low whistling noise between her front teeth.
    "Hello?" she called.


    Now let's take a look at two historical novels:

    Extracted from The Winter King, by Bernard Cornwell:

    "Touch him, Gorfyddyd", said a new voice in the hall, "and your life is mine. I shall bury it in the dungheap of Caer Idion and call the dogs to piss on it. I shall give your soul to the spirit children who lack playthings. I shall keep you in darkness till the last day is done and then I shall spit on you till the next era begins, and even then, Lord King, your torments will hardly have begun".
    I felt the tension sweep out of me like a rush of water. Only one man would dare speak to a High King thus. It was Merlin.[...]
    "You speak or this man, Lord Merlin?" Gorfyddyd asked.
    "Are you deaf Gorfyddyd?" Merlin snapped. "Derfel Cadarn shall live. He shall be your honored guest. He shall eat of your food and drink of your wine. He shall sleep in your bed and take your slave women if he desires. Derfel Cadarn and Galahad of Benoic are under my protection!"


    Extracted from the Iron King, by Maurice Druon:

    "What's the matter with you, Philippe Darling?" Marguerite asked, her arms extended towards him, her face raised to receive a kiss. "Aren't you happy this evening?"
    "Perfectly" he answered coldly.
    "What's happened? What are you angry about now?"
    "Have you put that on merely to annoy me?" asked Philippe, pointing to the purse.
    She laughed loudly and happily.
    "How silly you are, how jealous and how sweet! Didn't you realise that I was teasing you? Just to calm you down, I'll give you the purse. You will know then that it was no present from a lover." [...]
    "Yes, yes, I want you to have it" she said. "Now it really is a love-gauge for you. No, don't refuse. But don't ask me again where the purse came from, or I shall have to take it back. I can only swear to you that it was not given me by a man. Besides, Blanche has got one too."


    The firs extract I took from a speech from Merlin, considered to be a powerul wizard/druid. The second I took from two lovers talking to each other, one of them (Marguerite) having a personality very similar to Liliana's in some respects. Please compare and tell me which one do you think the uncharted realms is more closely related to, the first two or the last two. In my opinion clearly the first two, the use of 'hmph', casual colocations such as 'just a rat or something' that make the text sound too modern or too out of place, while I wanted it go in the direction of the last two extracts, that sound less childish and more mature, without seeing 'wooden' or 'formal'.

    That said, this is my last attempt to point out this matter. If everybody thinks that the text is fine, great. There is nothing I can do to argue otherwise. I think we could uphold higher standards for writing, but if people think my standards are inappropriate or innacurate, then patience.



    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Quote from Gutterstorm »
    They didn't sound childish at all. In fact that's exactly the way me and many of the people I know would go about those sort of conversations. I particularly liked the bit where they were talking about the spy she had hired to find him.


    And are you and any of the people that you know mages that live in a fantasy world inspired by medieval times? The problem in the conversations is exactly that they sound too 'modern' and 'immature' for the whole context of their lives and situation. They sound like teenagers from our modern era, and that is a problem in the writing style, if you don't think so, great, we move on. If you think that they sound exactly as they should, then there is nothing more to argue.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Quote from Flisch »
    Where do you get the idea from that adult people are unnecessarily verbose? The dialog between Jace and Liliana was fine, especially considering they're not formal with each other, they have been lovers.

    It should also be noted that Liliana is obsessed with youth, it makes sense for her to sound a lot younger than she "should".

    Additionally it should be noted, that Liliana needed Jace's help. She was uncomfortable, because it is not her nature to ask for help. She was far from relaxed inside, even though she tried to appear as casual as possible on the outside, which explains her relatively short sentences.

    Also, I kinda liked the "Oh, that." replies. Especially when Jace turned it around on her.


    Again, not any kind of adult people, two powerful mages from a fantasy world inspired by medieval times. If you are really bothered by it I can grab some fantasy books and historical novels that I have where people have conversations very different from the one that Jace had with Liliana. Being lovers or not, the way they talked with each other was childish, if you don't think so fine, I could show you examples of conversations taken from good medieval/fantasy books for a really long time and you wouldn't find a 'oh that' in them.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Yeah, I was going for a more 'mature' version of Jace, but it may have come out too austere for everyone's taste. I was not trying to be 'better than the creative team', I was just showing a different way to represent two characteres that wouldn't make they sound as childish as they did to me. I do think that my alterations weren't that big as to 'completely change their personalities', since I kept Liliana's small provocations and made Jace sound a little more objective (at least in my mind).

    Finally, I would say that magic is a fantasy world based on our medieval times in general, but with some liberty taken in one aspect or another, that is why the characters would sound more formal to me, or would use different words. In any case english is not my first language, which can stop me from delivering the lines the exact way I wanted to. But all the criticism is appreciated, I do think they sound less childish, maybe the dialogues could be tuned so they would sound a little bit more familiar with each other.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    It has more words, yes. That is of course a matter of preference and maybe some changes could happen, but the 'perfect version' of the text cannot be reached since everyone will have a final and different opinion about it. There is also the fact that the first text was extraordinarily short, some parts of the conversations would have just one or two words, and I changed that to add some vocabulary that could reflect the knowledge both planeswalkers have. The point was to showcase the same dialogues but in a way that the characters would feel more knowledgeable, without altering much of their personalities.

    Of course, there is always room for improvement. If you think that I couldn't make my point then maybe I could try something different in the future.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Just to stress the point that one can talk in a different way without sounding necessarily old, I will briefly rewrite the conversations that I quoted:


    "The man I used was Lazlo Lipko"
    He sucked in a breath through gritted teeth.
    "He is..." - Jace paused for a moment - "a problem for Ranvnica and its citizens. I was trying to find and contain him"
    "There is no need for that anymore" - Liliana replied - "I've left his rotten corpse so destroyed that not even a golgari mage will find a use for his carcass" - she smikerd, as if proud for that particular accomplishment.
    Jace sighed.
    "This time I will overlook what you did" - he gestured with his hands - "I understand the need to twist some rules to achieve a goal... as I am guilty of that myself."


    next one:


    "Tell me what happened to Garruk" he prodded.
    "Garruk? The man beast?" - she frowned - "There is nothing to say that I think you haven't divined already"
    "Try me"
    "He attempted to kill me over some stupid dead animal" she said "I defended myself and he got the worst of it. Now he is carrying a grudge."
    "That is not what I was asking"
    She blinked those ancient violet eyes.
    "It is not?"
    "Tell me about the Chain Veil"
    "Oh" she said looking away "so that is what this is all about"


    Last one:


    "What a surprise to see you here old friend" - he said - "It is like time had standed still until I layed my eyes upon you once again. What fresh start do you want us to have?"
    She grinned wickedly.
    "We could start with a dinner"
    He snorted.
    She smiled serenely.
    "Oh, I see... you actually meant that".
    She grinned.
    "Of course I did darling, I always mean what I say".

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    After all this comotion about coffee and boyfriend/girlfriend stuff I will emphasize my point from earlier: I'm more bothered about the way that they talked to each other than anything else. Examples from the text:



    "Lazlo Lipko."

    He sucked in a breath through gritted teeth.

    "Ooh, yeah, he's a real bastard."

    "Was," she said, smirking.

    He sighed.

    "Fine. It's not like I've never worked outside the law, even as the Guildpact."



    and also:



    "Garruk," he prodded.

    "Garruk." She frowned. "Not much to tell."

    "So tell it."

    "He attacked me," she said. "I won. I guess he's carrying a grudge."

    "No."

    She blinked those ancient violet eyes.

    "No?"

    "Tell me about the Chain Veil," said Jace.

    "Oh," she said, looking away. "That."



    And also that:



    "What a pleasant surprise!" he said. "It's delightful to see you again—not at all suspicious or unwelcome. What sort of fresh start did you have in mind?"

    She grinned wickedly.

    "Buy me dinner?"

    He snorted.

    She smiled serenely.

    "You're serious," he said.

    She grinned.

    "I'm always serious."



    This is not bad writing per se, the problem is that it doesn't seem to fit any of the two characters. Liliana in particular is a century-old all powerful necromancer, while Jace is a telepath that embodies a treat that keeps a whole world from falling apart, you would think that they would talk in a more refined or interesting way, even considering that they are acquaintances. The way it was written looks like an extract from a book for children and teenagers. Maybe this is just the creative team trying to capture the younger public, but to me it feels very out of place.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Magic Story Discussion: Magic Origins and Battle for Zendikar Block
    Gideon's Uncharted Realms was solid. Pretty good storytelling although after a point it became too much descriptive to my taste. I got from the first part that the Eldrazi are a mass of irrational, unreasonable creatures devoided of feelings that have tendrils and claws, etc. Describing them over and over makes it too repetitive for me. All and all, it was a nice story, and I was much more interested in the Krenko vs Shattergang war than in Zendikar, to be honest. Maybe that is just because I like goblins.

    The story from this week was not on the same level. I think it was still good, the relationship between Jace and Liliana struck me as genuine and I could care for them enough to have a good time reading. That being said, it was a story with 3 of the 5 new protagonists from Magic's new era... if it was a bad story than they could pack it up and give up on writing. It is like when you have Batman and Superman in the same storyline talking to each other, if the dialogues of the greatest faces of your story don't hold up, you can't expect anything to hold up. I do think that the dialogue was a bit too careless in some spots, in the way that the characters acted and reacted, it felt too childish, with the 'nope', 'I'm too strong', 'That', and other lines such as these. Gideon sounded much more sound to me than Jace or Liliana, who looked like teenagers talking to each other (and Liliana is at least centuries old if I'm not mistaken). I can overlook these details given that the content of their conversation was interesting though.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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