Unfortunately I currently don't have a list ready as of the moment, but I'm taking notes on the points you raised. I'd start by swapping Frenzy with EtW straight up just to test it. Reasons are:
same cost
we hate multiples of both
both MIGHT win on turn one, with EtW on turn 1 being more potent, but Frenzy being more potent turn 2 onwards
we can still BW->EtW if we need to
I suggest you use Deck 8 as your testing platform, directly swapping Frenzy in place of EtW. Having more Street Wraith means more chances of a fizzle on top of deck, thus the Deck 8 which only has 1 SW. If we really need to lower the curve, we can insert Wild Cantor in its place.
EDIT: Take note, there is a big risk of having 4 BW with Frenzy, but IMO the opportunity to cast the top of deck to offset the mana needed to break Frenzy after casting BW can also be considered.
As always, Trall with the vital information every Belcher player needs. Thanks for keeping us posted!
Anyways, from Guilds of Ravnica, there is one card I am curious about if we can break it into our list: Experimental Frenzy.
May I request the great Trall to do some simulations. I am specifically pointing at a Wishless list, since Wishing is a bit of nonbo with Frenzy. But if we can work the math, then so be it.
I have seen Caleb Schrerer play it on a Twitch stream, and although IMO the play is inconsistent, I did observe several things:
1. Lion's Eye Diamond becomes a Black Lotus post-Frenzy
2. Chrome Mox becomes more useful
3. the deck fizzels because of spiritguides on top deck.
4. most of the time, having Frenzy on board means a win, similar to when we have Belcher on board. (Here I would like to have the math experts do their thing).
5. if we are going this route, what is the best number of business spells we need? (I still believe it should be 10).
Let me know your thoughts and simulations. Thanks everyone, and keep belching!
I'm not totally dismissing the idea. In general, the Restore Balance list include cascaders, but there are As Foretold versions as well. You haven't clarified that you are pointing towards that build, thus my response. At that blank note, that will be my immediate response. But as you elaborated well, I get the picture of what you are trying to build. Sorry for that.
Thanks for the response! I kind of get the style of play this list intends to play. Seems like streamlining the direction of the deck is the best way to go. I think it is just me not being used to that style of play, but the plan is robust. Thanks also for the alternative commander suggestion!
Hi! I am new to the colorless commander area, and I am amused of your list. These bevy of 1-cmc artifacts with sacrifice effects makes me wonder: Why aren't you running Salvaging Station? Just a thought, because I have used it in Sharuum the Hegemon to great effect. Nets mana from LED, reuses Scrabbling Claws and co., and with the amount of possible death trggers, so many draws/disruption with Claw and co. Thanks for the response!
Nice recap as always, bob. I really want to get a hold of Bramble Sovereign. Such a good card for the deck.
By the way, I want to get your opinions on Enduring Renewal. I have been using it to good effect in my list. It gives the opponents information on what we have on hand, but it is a wrath protection and a Séance/GPG engine (the draw step trigger).
Just a bypasser that is interested in the way the deck works. Just a question:
If the opponent has shuffle effects (like Emmy), how does the deck win? Just got the answer a few posts above
Was Devil's Play considered in these kind of situations? (I know RRR is too restrictive)
On a completely unrelated note, I'm selling four (4) near mint, Judge promo Gitaxian Probes. Please PM for details!
ROFL. Banned in all formats except Vintage where it is already restricted to one. Good luck on that hahaha!
Honestly speaking, I share the same sentiment. Though in some matchups like Death and Taxes we might have some problem. Since we're becoming a turn slower than before (as you pointed out, lesser Gobbos on turn 1 means more combat turns), they'll have more timetorecover.
And now, since I got my LEDs, I sold my Street Wraiths to a friend, I'm needing a set of my own!
I'll just add to the Jace, the Wallet Sculptor argument: it helps us putting back those drawn RBs back on the top of the library. For players like me who always draws at least 1 RB each game, it is a big help. Unfortunately, I haven't acquired any, so I'll stick to my enchantment-based RB list for now...
Also, one of these days when I have time, I wanna talk about the usefulness of Blood Moon in our builds.
I'd like to get into this convo at some point, too. Personally, I'm a very big fan of Blood Moon. It really helps the prison side of our plan (because, at the core, I think RB could be considered a prison deck). We run so many basics so it barely affects us, Blood Moon is just an "easy win" card against enough decks in the current meta, and wiping all of our opponent's lands while there is a Moon in play is very good. It means the opponent can't use fetch lands to find the lands they need to rebuild.
Then, let's get it started, shall we? IMO, there's a reason why the Blue Moon deck is still around wrecking havoc in Modern: it's because of Blood Moon and its resistance to it, to the point where it is the deck's main win condition. Modern is a format of crazy manabases (BGX, Tron variants, Living End, Dredge to name a few), so having access to Blood Moon is an easy win. As jenn said, at its core, Restore Balance is a prison deck. We aim to lock the board to set up a significant RB, draining resources from our opponent. Blood Moon is the earliest lock piece we have (aside from Ghostly Prison). Because of these lock pieces, our opponent commits more on the board, thus fueling a more effective RB. Though admittedly, I demoted it to the sideboard for now, I still board it in most of the time, and wins me games outright.
Well, I just said more success, but it's still the nightmare it is against us, just not as bad as before. As jenn highlighted, it is still a terrible matchup. At least on my end it is more manageable with the Siege than before.
I'm happy that I was able to sway your thoughts on Monastery Siege and finding success in using it. People really get blinded by the card and always thought, well it's just a looter effect. But then you factor out that you are a Balance deck and the taxing is too much to handle when lands are getting busted over and over again. Been finding more success against Burn ever since its inclusion to my list.
I suggest you use Deck 8 as your testing platform, directly swapping Frenzy in place of EtW. Having more Street Wraith means more chances of a fizzle on top of deck, thus the Deck 8 which only has 1 SW. If we really need to lower the curve, we can insert Wild Cantor in its place.
EDIT: Take note, there is a big risk of having 4 BW with Frenzy, but IMO the opportunity to cast the top of deck to offset the mana needed to break Frenzy after casting BW can also be considered.
Anyways, from Guilds of Ravnica, there is one card I am curious about if we can break it into our list: Experimental Frenzy.
May I request the great Trall to do some simulations. I am specifically pointing at a Wishless list, since Wishing is a bit of nonbo with Frenzy. But if we can work the math, then so be it.
I have seen Caleb Schrerer play it on a Twitch stream, and although IMO the play is inconsistent, I did observe several things:
1. Lion's Eye Diamond becomes a Black Lotus post-Frenzy
2. Chrome Mox becomes more useful
3. the deck fizzels because of spirit guides on top deck.
4. most of the time, having Frenzy on board means a win, similar to when we have Belcher on board. (Here I would like to have the math experts do their thing).
5. if we are going this route, what is the best number of business spells we need? (I still believe it should be 10).
Let me know your thoughts and simulations. Thanks everyone, and keep belching!
Dark Heart of the Wood is a nonbo since it can be hit by cascaders (2cmc).
Also, on another note, I will be trying to build a similar list to yours, but I will be inserting Stax abilities, and the modern format combo of Scrap Trawler/Krark-Clan Ironworks/Myr Retriever/Junk Diver/Walking Ballista/Hangarback Walker. What is your opinion on this? I know you have prefaced that you are wooing away from these effects, but I just want to have some sort of a kill switch when the games go too long. With that, I am also planning to test Orochi Hatchery + Dragon Throne of Tarkir.
By the way, I want to get your opinions on Enduring Renewal. I have been using it to good effect in my list. It gives the opponents information on what we have on hand, but it is a wrath protection and a Séance/GPG engine (the draw step trigger).
If the opponent has shuffle effects (like Emmy), how does the deck win?
Was Devil's Play considered in these kind of situations? (I know RRR is too restrictive)
ROFL. Banned in all formats except Vintage where it is already restricted to one. Good luck on that hahaha!
Honestly speaking, I share the same sentiment. Though in some matchups like Death and Taxes we might have some problem. Since we're becoming a turn slower than before (as you pointed out, lesser Gobbos on turn 1 means more combat turns), they'll have more time to recover.
And now, since I got my LEDs, I sold my Street Wraiths to a friend, I'm needing a set of my own!
Then, let's get it started, shall we? IMO, there's a reason why the Blue Moon deck is still around wrecking havoc in Modern: it's because of Blood Moon and its resistance to it, to the point where it is the deck's main win condition. Modern is a format of crazy manabases (BGX, Tron variants, Living End, Dredge to name a few), so having access to Blood Moon is an easy win. As jenn said, at its core, Restore Balance is a prison deck. We aim to lock the board to set up a significant RB, draining resources from our opponent. Blood Moon is the earliest lock piece we have (aside from Ghostly Prison). Because of these lock pieces, our opponent commits more on the board, thus fueling a more effective RB. Though admittedly, I demoted it to the sideboard for now, I still board it in most of the time, and wins me games outright.