Neo7Thinker arent you missing something to get some Cardadventege? My List is very similar to yours but i would never cut the three Ancestral Vision. Havent you any Problems with running out of Gas? You neither play Sphinx Revelation. Your only way to get Cardedvantage is with Ojutai but in my tests this was way to late.
Can you explain this to me pleas
As someone who plays the more midrange style of UW, I can take a stab at this too.
These kinds of UW lists don't try to sit back behind counters and resolve giant Sphinx's Revelations. It's all about one-for-one card advantage or using Supreme Verdict to put us ahead. In that respect, it's similar to BGx Midrange lists that try to just eek out advantage every step of the way. With things like Resto-blinking Walls, or cantripping with Cryptic, we usually have more cards than our opponent anyways.
Hallowed Burial is an interesting piece of tech I've been playing in my board for the Dredge matchup. Been working well so far.
Been trying out some Kaladesh cards too. Ceremonious Rejection and Fragmentize are awesome sideboard cards, especially with Snapcaster. The tempo you can gain out of them are insane. I'm really high on Filigree Familiar right now too; not sure if it's good enough to replace Finks, but I really like having 7-8 solid cantripping creatures in my list. Torrential Gearhulk I haven't actually played in a match yet, but it seems great in the BGx Midrange matchup as a bigger, badder Snapcaster.
I'm not as high on Ojutai as some of you seem to be. He just doesn't seem to do anything the turn he comes into play, which seems subpar in this meta. Now I could be misguided, but I've been having luck with Baneslayer Angel and some other collection of threats in that slot instead.
Also, Perilous Research is a card I stumbled upon and has been doing well in testing. Turns into a 2 mana draw 3 with Familiar, and has cool synergy with Detention Sphere and Finks, random chaff like Wall of Omens, and not to mention gives us extra usage for times when we are flooding. I've been running it as a 2-of and prolly wouldn't go higher.
If Gisela wasn't 3 toughness, she'd be Modern playable. She's basically just a cheaper Baneslayer Angel, but all the matchups you'd want to play Gisela in already run Lightning Bolt, which makes things really awkward. As it stands I know I'll be trying out some really jank UW Angel list that has 2 Gisela, 1 Bruna, and 2 Baneslayer backed by card draw and counters for the sheer hilarity of it.
Just a question, have any of you tried splashing green just for Mayor of Avabruck in a draw go version ?
I experimented with it in the weekend and it wrecked opponents by himself if they didn't deal with it. I thought I'd put it out there since it was actually rather impressive.
Even when (because at a certain point you WILL flip it back with snapcaster + flashback), beating in with a pumped Snappy felt great
Do you have a decklist you could share? I'm intrigued.
This match up doesn't seem awful to me.Not an easy one but not terrible either. I didn't practice a lot against the kiki-chord deck but in my testing, this is the kind of match ups where you have to play your interaction very conservatively. Try to save your countermagic for Collected companyor Chord of callingand don't waste your Path to exile. Of course, the match up can be rough without red removals. I see you don't play any 2 manas counterspells maindeck, I would suggest some Mana leakand Negatewhich are quite useful in this match up. Wrath effects are also quite good against them.
How have you approached the match up so far ?
Game 1 usually comes down to me trying to race them due to my limited ability to interact. Basically I just want to pressure them with Finks/Clique/Resto, Verdict when I need to, and keep Cryptic/Path handy for their combo if possible. Game 2 and 3 I become a little more controlling with my added interaction (Dispel/Negate/Flashfreeze/etc). Surgical and Relic come in as well to try and snipe away their Chord slash turn off E-Wit and Lark shenanigans.
I'm wondering if you guys on the Resto-Wall-Finks plan have tested the Kiki-Chord matchup at all. I'm currently 0-4 against the deck and I'm not sure what I can do to improve it.
Here's my current deck configuration as a reference:
I had a quick question regarding Geist of Saint Traft (and most likely a stupid one). I'm currently playing it in my sideboard of one of my control decks, and I was wondering where you lot found it to be at its best? Not in junction with the surrounding burn and removal, but just when Geist as a card pulled the most weight. Like, I know that it can single-handedly win a game against a control player and can sufficiently race a deck like Tron or Combo, but I was wondering about matchups like Burn, or Infect for that matter.
I've been testing Geist of Saint Traft in my UW sideboard and I was wondering, which matchups are the ones where I want to bring him in? Control mirrors, Combo, and Tron seem like the obvious ones, but what about decks like Infect or Burn?
Does anyone else want me to stop posting non-Esper results here? I thought that drawing comparisons to results with similar-but-different shells would help in defining what Esper should be doing. For example, my testing with Bant, UW, and Tapout shells has shown that Esper is better. The only reason I'm still testing with UWr Draw-Go is that it shores up the early-turn weaknesses of Esper in a way that feels competitive while not too dissimilar to Esper.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
Unfortunately, I am going to have to side with GoodPastor on this one. I have not been following the Esper Draw-go thread for long, but this thread does seem to get a little more sidetracked than any other that I have followed.
I can understand that this provides convenient evidence to show how Esper Draw-Go compares to other draw-go and tap-out lists. However, those looking for evidence on the topic can easily compare the results from the dedicated threads for those archetypes. I am not a moderator and barely a contributor to this thread, but as a purist i think that Esper Draw-go contributors within this forum could be a little more focused. If you are testing other decks you will probably get more relevant feedback by posting to those threads.
The main benefit of posting other variants here helps further the discussion on how to develop Esper Draw-Go. For too long, the archetype remained stagnant, and it shows in the results. Especially now in a format where a lot of common matchups are unfavorable, new tech is needed, hence the experimentations with other archetypes.
2-0 today at the win a box with UW. If there are enough interested people, I'm willing to start some sort of UW/X Tapout thread if someone wants to help me organize that. Pretty sure we must be annoying some people on this thread, and honestly a few months ago I would be annoyed myself if I hadn't arrived at these conclusions myself already.
I've also brewed a FANTASTIC UW/R tap out, and a Grixis tap out control. UW/R is insane.
Would love to see those lists, as well as the creation of a UWx Tapout Control thread. Would be nice to have a thread where I feel as though my deck belongs in.
I'm very curious about this Chalice list and will give it a shot this weekend on XMage. One thing that comes to mind, however, is that putting so much stock in an artifact-based mana-source leaves us vulnerable to all the Affinity hate out there post-sideboard.
Has anyone testing this found this to be an issue?
With only two sources of artifact mana, I think it's fine. People wont bring in Stony against us just for Chalice. It does make Abrupt Decay better, since it can effectively Stone Rain us in addition to sniping Walls/Spheres, but oh well.
I'm wondering if Chalice's scalability is a higher upside than cantripping with Mind Stone.
Everybody knows rg tron and Jund aren't control, I think he was just trying to prove some weird theoretical point bc he doesn't like the list. Which is fine, I readily admitted this wasn't the right place to put it, I just thought it was interesting bc I arrived there by tweaking the wafo list here and there over time over hundreds of matches and documenting what worked and what would have been better. I'm not trying to derail, I'm just saying think critically about the meta. Are are you really happy to see those remands against.... Well... ANY of the meta besides maybe grixis control or some weird non existent mirror? Maybe against AV decks , but even then you would have to acknowledge the overwhelming portion of the metagame is linear aggro of some sort, be it affinity, burn, or infect, or zoo, and gbx midrange
Which brings us to the problem. Most of us have been building control decks BACKWARDS. Starting with one "golden list" that historically, nobody has really done that well with in a CONSISTENT FASHION, and then trying to rationalize the data to fit what we already believe: wafo list is untouchable and is the god-list of all control decks. Whereas even wafo himself would say in order to build a successful control deck, you have to look at the metagame you're supposedly controlling. That's control 101, and everybody here knows that. I'm speaking to myself as much as I'm speaking to any of you.
We can't build control decks like combo decks i.e.: start with a list that we assume is "correct" and then just hope the meta is favorable for us at any given point in the season. We are the police. Historically we are the people who have always said "oh, you willfully played a deck that folds to a single day of judgment? Neat. ". "You're entire strategy is to resolve inferno Titan? Sweet. Have a mana leak"
But anyways, at least we've got our shadow of doubts, right? Lol
TLDR; Not liking the list or not being a fan of the style is one thing, but to say it isn't control would be some pretty heavy mental gymnastics
I really wish I could upvote this multiple times. The relative narrow viewpoint of the Esper thread is part of the reason why I jumped ship a while back to play with straight UW. I've been on tapout control lists for a while and they've proven effective, even during Eldrazi Winter.
I think the question is, where do you want your black splash to come from, if it's necessary at all? Lingering Souls, Dismember, and walkers like Sorin are the ones that come to mind.
As someone who plays the more midrange style of UW, I can take a stab at this too.
These kinds of UW lists don't try to sit back behind counters and resolve giant Sphinx's Revelations. It's all about one-for-one card advantage or using Supreme Verdict to put us ahead. In that respect, it's similar to BGx Midrange lists that try to just eek out advantage every step of the way. With things like Resto-blinking Walls, or cantripping with Cryptic, we usually have more cards than our opponent anyways.
Been trying out some Kaladesh cards too. Ceremonious Rejection and Fragmentize are awesome sideboard cards, especially with Snapcaster. The tempo you can gain out of them are insane. I'm really high on Filigree Familiar right now too; not sure if it's good enough to replace Finks, but I really like having 7-8 solid cantripping creatures in my list. Torrential Gearhulk I haven't actually played in a match yet, but it seems great in the BGx Midrange matchup as a bigger, badder Snapcaster.
I'm not as high on Ojutai as some of you seem to be. He just doesn't seem to do anything the turn he comes into play, which seems subpar in this meta. Now I could be misguided, but I've been having luck with Baneslayer Angel and some other collection of threats in that slot instead.
Also, Perilous Research is a card I stumbled upon and has been doing well in testing. Turns into a 2 mana draw 3 with Familiar, and has cool synergy with Detention Sphere and Finks, random chaff like Wall of Omens, and not to mention gives us extra usage for times when we are flooding. I've been running it as a 2-of and prolly wouldn't go higher.
Do you have a decklist you could share? I'm intrigued.
Game 1 usually comes down to me trying to race them due to my limited ability to interact. Basically I just want to pressure them with Finks/Clique/Resto, Verdict when I need to, and keep Cryptic/Path handy for their combo if possible. Game 2 and 3 I become a little more controlling with my added interaction (Dispel/Negate/Flashfreeze/etc). Surgical and Relic come in as well to try and snipe away their Chord slash turn off E-Wit and Lark shenanigans.
Here's my current deck configuration as a reference:
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Gideon Jura
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Cryptic Command
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Island
2 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Prairie Stream
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Stony Silence
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Celestial Purge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Runed Halo
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
Sideboard's a mess due to me wanting to test out a variety of cards at the moment.
The main benefit of posting other variants here helps further the discussion on how to develop Esper Draw-Go. For too long, the archetype remained stagnant, and it shows in the results. Especially now in a format where a lot of common matchups are unfavorable, new tech is needed, hence the experimentations with other archetypes.
Would love to see those lists, as well as the creation of a UWx Tapout Control thread. Would be nice to have a thread where I feel as though my deck belongs in.
With only two sources of artifact mana, I think it's fine. People wont bring in Stony against us just for Chalice. It does make Abrupt Decay better, since it can effectively Stone Rain us in addition to sniping Walls/Spheres, but oh well.
I'm wondering if Chalice's scalability is a higher upside than cantripping with Mind Stone.
I really wish I could upvote this multiple times. The relative narrow viewpoint of the Esper thread is part of the reason why I jumped ship a while back to play with straight UW. I've been on tapout control lists for a while and they've proven effective, even during Eldrazi Winter.
I think the question is, where do you want your black splash to come from, if it's necessary at all? Lingering Souls, Dismember, and walkers like Sorin are the ones that come to mind.