Are you positive GPs will still exist in their current form if counterfeiting becomes an epidemic?
Why would it? Do you really think WotC would say "let's stop running events that make tons of money for us in order to make a moral statement about people using fake cards"? They won't. There will probably be an increased amount of card examinations at these events, such that people with poorly made fakes are going to fare worse than people with well-made fakes.
No, not immediately. It would likely impact stores and dealers before it hurt WotC.
generally I am against fakes/counterfeits because the quality of these things can seriously hurt or kill someone or is just a *****ty thing in general.
but if these Chinese "counterfeits" are sold at reasonable prices and are allowed in tournament play that would be great.
wizards is never going to print force of will ever again.
people horde them and try to make thousands of dollars yearly selling magic cards to their fellow players then complain when people don't want to pay the markup.
this is the same backlash YEARONE parts faced when they decided to reproduce body panels and interior parts chevy was no longer producing for muscle cars.
everyone hoarding body panels and parts cried, and yelled about the ethics of people who would GASP! use a reproduction part on a car!!!
but these are just game pieces and pieces of cardboard
I would have no qualms with playing an opponent at a "GP" with reproduction cards/cardboard
Your "qualms" may be irrelevant to this issue. Are you positive GPs will still exist in their current form if counterfeiting becomes an epidemic?
Firstly I wanted to correct one thing. I checked the buy it nows on ebay and looked for the lowest priced NM copy (actually NM based on the picture/description), and the lowest copy there was $180.
What one has to keep in mind, is that ebay/tcgplayer and even other stores can have a very different idea of what NM means. With SCG there is no question. NM means NM, I've never run into a problem with condition with SCG no matter what it was I was buying from them. Other stores and ebay, I've run into plenty of problems over the years. While other stores/ebay sellers can also have great customer service, SCG's customer service is most definitely the best and most comprehensive out there overall. This can be seen from them having the largest customer base of any other online store by a sizeable margin. SCG works hard to make sure their customers are satisfied with what they are buying. Are there prices a bit higher than other stores/ebay/etc? Sure. But that's the kicker. They price at what their customers are willing to pay. If they price too high, then they will lower the price down to an amount that they can sell the cards at.
SCG also has a certain margin that they go for between what they list as their buy price and what they sell the cards for. If they need to raise their buy price up in order to bring in more of a particular card because their stock is running low, they are going to raise their sell price accordingly to keep their margins intact.
As for talk of SCG ripping people off. That's just absurd. SCG, while being the biggest online store in the market, still only make up a relatively small overall percentage of the overall mtg market. If someone thinks that their prices are too high, they can always shop elsewhere, its not like people are forced to buy anything from SCG if they don't want to. And there are also many instances where their prices on cards are actually quite close to what others are charging for those cards. Heck I've even bought from them on quite a few occasions where their prices were the cheapest of anywhere else on the internet. (Their sales can also lead to some great deals on harder to find things as well.) Higher demand items are inevitably going to be something that they are likely to charge more for, because they are going to have to spend more via their buylisting to keep the cards in stock.
Each store and ebay seller has to decide for themselves what they are willing/able to charge for a card that will maximize their potential profits while also keeping the cards selling. The more popular the store/seller the higher they can price their cards/more they can get out of them in general. You see this difference between various online stores just as you see it between different sellers on ebay.
The fact that SCG also runs their Open (and otherwise) tournaments for legacy (among other formats) only adds to the potential demand for cards for those formats as they have to have the cards in stock and on hand for those events.
So when comparing prices between SCG and other stores, just keep in mind that a larger, more well known and popular store like SCG is going to be able to charge more than some smaller, less known, and less popular store on tcgplayer or ebay.
Buy-It-Now is not a very good barometer for evaluating singles. They include companies like Card Kingdom and CCG House which tend to be on the higher side. As an example, one seller has a non-foil JTMS from Worldwake priced at $250 (SCG is priced less than half). Cheap BIN singles go quick (I got a Ex LED for $50 and a HP-sleeve playable one for 40).
They have pretty much everything, especially at their events from what I understand. It is a question of what you value more. Time or money.
What makes less sense to me is how they sell some of their newer common product. They have the Naya Commander Deck priced at $40!
I find it deeply strange that you dislike experimenting with the design space available to the game.
Once upon a time, multi-colored Gold cards and "Legend" permanents were totally screwing with the "established rules" of the game. Hybrid mana; Planeswalkers; Split Cards; so on and so forth. Many of these mechanics have gone on to be beloved, robust parts of the game.
While it's true that draft-mod mechanics probably aren't going to be as prevalent in a set as something like Hybrid mana, I just can't see how the idea of trying new things should be "disliked". I can see disliking this specific mechanic, but are you truly, honestly against the idea of experimenting and trying new design space on for size?
I am quoting your post as it provides a lot of good examples on mechanics that would ruin the game. I remember reading Mark Rosewater's 20 things were going to kill Magic when I started playing again:
Pitch cards from Alliances being the first new mechanic that caused controversy. Flip cards (which you noted) being the latest.
The one difference I can see is that this mechanic is the only one I can recall that introduces a mechanic that occurs completely outside the actual game of Magic. Even cards like Serum Powder, Leylines, Gemstone Caverns, Wishes, etc. impact only current game after each player draws 7 cards.
Definitely an interesting game changer if the card is real in a legal set and not just a draftable un-set.
Thanks to this spate of troublemaking from counterfieters, I test everything that arrives.
Do you bend test? I now inspect my cards as well, but have heard the bend test puts unnecessary stress on cards, which is a problem when Buying 20 year old cards. Problem is I want to be smart and safe.
per the other forum/link that I found, it sounds as if they are temporarily going under the radar (and potentially fixing the edge issue). I'd expect them to come up again soon.
Edge issues? look pretty good for the kitchen table use I keep hearing about, unless, you know...
Also, people losing jobs, although not great, isn't always a terrible thing in the long run.
Where would we be if we avoided researching or applying electricity, because it would cause the candlemakers lose their jobs? Some candlemakers would still have their jobs, but everybody would be way worse off for delaying convenient and life saving, etc. technology.
If WOTC acts incompetently for long enough, then shutting their doors could be good for gaming. Their jobs would be replaced by other gaming companies stepping in to fill the gap, and they would create more jobs as a result. So jobs stay the same in the long run, and yet a game company that doesn't act in the interest of its gamers is removed in favor of companies that do.
That's a net positive, usually. *Shrug*
Are you an economist? Have you taken any economy courses? Because you are arguing that counterfeiting promotes innovation and creativity.
I do, and so do an insane ammount of peope in reddit, facebook, twitter. Why WotC would choose to remain blind to all these ****ing millions of dollars basically screaming "I could be yours if you made $5 shocklands, but I'd rather go to china if you keep allowing market cornering", I just cannot fathom. It's as if SCG's and other mass retailers' interests were more important to WotC than their own and LGS's.
You can argue the secondary market has gotten out of hand with the SCGs of the world, but Magic: the Gathering is not a cheap hobby, nor has it ever been.
Agreed. And it's not just Modern. Cards in *Standard* have such outrageous prices that even they are attractive to counterfeitters.
Thank you for directing the topic towards modern/standard and away from legacy/reserve list discussion. I counted 82 different cards in the pictures. 23 of them are standard legal. More counterfeits from Theros (5) than cards on the Reserve List (4). They are even counterfeiting Sol Ring, which Wizards includes with every 2013 Commander Deck.
Actually its been on the scene winning (SMF) with regards to Legacy since January of 2011, so in theory its about time the main engine of such successful deck templates gets its warrant "jump", and that fact is directly from TheCouncil, I don't know how you missed that since you're using that source as a reference.
Those Precons you're referring to as well weren't exactly Wal-Mart products either, so in that aspect with the success of SFM since 2011 its a fair "reasoning" for the increase, in either case the time is now...and its happening with justice.
S.M.
What was MSRP on the Precons? I saw the pair (War of Attrition and Rot from Within) for something like $50 as a set about a week or two ago. Something tells me they won't be there when I go back...
No, it doesn't.
No, not immediately. It would likely impact stores and dealers before it hurt WotC.
Your "qualms" may be irrelevant to this issue. Are you positive GPs will still exist in their current form if counterfeiting becomes an epidemic?
Buy-It-Now is not a very good barometer for evaluating singles. They include companies like Card Kingdom and CCG House which tend to be on the higher side. As an example, one seller has a non-foil JTMS from Worldwake priced at $250 (SCG is priced less than half). Cheap BIN singles go quick (I got a Ex LED for $50 and a HP-sleeve playable one for 40).
They have pretty much everything, especially at their events from what I understand. It is a question of what you value more. Time or money.
What makes less sense to me is how they sell some of their newer common product. They have the Naya Commander Deck priced at $40!
I am quoting your post as it provides a lot of good examples on mechanics that would ruin the game. I remember reading Mark Rosewater's 20 things were going to kill Magic when I started playing again:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/259
Pitch cards from Alliances being the first new mechanic that caused controversy. Flip cards (which you noted) being the latest.
The one difference I can see is that this mechanic is the only one I can recall that introduces a mechanic that occurs completely outside the actual game of Magic. Even cards like Serum Powder, Leylines, Gemstone Caverns, Wishes, etc. impact only current game after each player draws 7 cards.
Definitely an interesting game changer if the card is real in a legal set and not just a draftable un-set.
Do you bend test? I now inspect my cards as well, but have heard the bend test puts unnecessary stress on cards, which is a problem when Buying 20 year old cards. Problem is I want to be smart and safe.
Edge issues? look pretty good for the kitchen table use I keep hearing about, unless, you know...
Are you an economist? Have you taken any economy courses? Because you are arguing that counterfeiting promotes innovation and creativity.
You can argue the secondary market has gotten out of hand with the SCGs of the world, but Magic: the Gathering is not a cheap hobby, nor has it ever been.
Thank you for directing the topic towards modern/standard and away from legacy/reserve list discussion. I counted 82 different cards in the pictures. 23 of them are standard legal. More counterfeits from Theros (5) than cards on the Reserve List (4). They are even counterfeiting Sol Ring, which Wizards includes with every 2013 Commander Deck.
What was MSRP on the Precons? I saw the pair (War of Attrition and Rot from Within) for something like $50 as a set about a week or two ago. Something tells me they won't be there when I go back...
Reading his tweets on the pauper format... I wonder if Kibler feels the same way about Legacy.
The price may eventually reach the $60 range, but gouging hot cards at large events is as old as the Pro Tour.
I remember reading Mark Rosewater's article on targeting. Have any of the designers commented on why TNN doesn't say "choose target opponent"?
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/188