Well I assume the entire point is that you're out of options when you're trying to win that way, so it's risky, but you won't win otherwise anyway.
True, it just seems improbable that a lab maniac would survive through all that. I don't have it in my sideboard. I just don't see a need for it personally.
You do need a way to draw that turn though or else you lose. You also need the Lab Maniac to stick and still have enough mana for the combo.
Also for the rule of law I have the card from future sight that you can cast for free if you cast a white spell that turn and it destroys all enchantments. Can't remember the name right of hand though.
Casting for free is still casting. I guess for Lab Maniac you'd either need Gitaxian Probes (or some red draw spell with the Spirit Guides) or to use it when you have Phyrexian Unlife out, rather than Angel's Grace.
That is true, I just would hard cast it in that case. Gitaxian probe wouldn't work after you draw your whole deck. You can't pay life that you don't have.
True, although if you have it in hand, you could cast it and then Ad Nauseum in response, drawing your entire deck with Ad Nauseum and then winning off the Probe. Not that this would get you around not being able to cast two spells in a turn.
That seems really risky, although you will have all the pacts you should need in your hand. That's assuming they don't just kill the maniac in response to ad nauseam.
Another thing I love about the deck is not many people know how to play around the deck. Most time they name lightning storm with nevermore or runed halo. This allows me to ad nauseam for value and find answers.
You do need a way to draw that turn though or else you lose. You also need the Lab Maniac to stick and still have enough mana for the combo.
Also for the rule of law I have the card from future sight that you can cast for free if you cast a white spell that turn and it destroys all enchantments. Can't remember the name right of hand though.
Casting for free is still casting. I guess for Lab Maniac you'd either need Gitaxian Probes (or some red draw spell with the Spirit Guides) or to use it when you have Phyrexian Unlife out, rather than Angel's Grace.
That is true, I just would hard cast it in that case. Gitaxian probe wouldn't work after you draw your whole deck. You can't pay life that you don't have.
You do need a way to draw that turn though or else you lose. You also need the Lab Maniac to stick and still have enough mana for the combo.
Also for the rule of law I have the card from future sight that you can cast for free if you cast a white spell that turn and it destroys all enchantments. Can't remember the name right of hand though.
So I just lost a match in an 8 man on MTGO because Lightning Storm resolved because I apparently didn't hold priority when I was holding down CTRL. My finger did not slip or anything. I'm so angry.
So I just lost a match in an 8 man on MTGO because Lightning Storm resolved because I apparently didn't hold priority when I was holding down CTRL. My finger did not slip or anything. I'm so angry.
I find myself needing either one of the combo pieces way too much. Even with all the draw manipulation and like effects. I am tempted to start putting in some transmute cards.
Am I going to far with this?
every 1/1 token in ever 8rack list blocks and kills snapcaster just fine also and better.
Yes targeted removal would be better vs pod, so would targeted discard... not charm.
I'm opinionated for sure, not intentionally condescending... unless you suggest something along the lines of Leechridden Swamp ;-)
Well I was also having a bad morning so my apologies for that. I guess my problem is that I don't want to just copy a netdeck. I have nothing against netdecking in general, I just like to push my limits as a deckbuilder even if it makes the deck worse as a whole. Maybe I'll go down to 2 scrying sheets and add another mutavault and a dakmor salvage. My opinion of the retrace raven's crime plan is that I would rather scrying sheets for lands instead of dredging back dakmor salvage. Sure, I see two cards instead of one and when I am wanting to dredge, I am most likely in control and want to hit racks. I will have to add the buried ruin back which brings me back to the original without the scrying sheets.
It really feels like you're trying to reinvent the wheel with what you're doing with this deck.
The success and relative popularity the deck has enjoyed are because people...many people...have tested the deck back and forth and come up with mostly similar conclusions.
Of course there are angles you can take, options few have seen, and really open something up. That's healthy and good for the game. That said, just because there is room for innovation doesn't mean every innovation is justifiable at a competitive level.
In your deck example, you have given up the ability to recur threats and defenses through artifact-recovering lands, as well as any secondary attack and defense through (more) Mutavaults. There's not even a single Dakmor Salvage in sight.
Why?
So you can play Scrying Sheets, a card that can dig slightly deeper for another land you wouldn't need at that point with roughly 1 in 4 odds. This is inconsistent and clunky. You don't need it, and would be far better served with either of the previous options.
If you play the full set of Ensnaring Bridges as well as secondary ways to either defend it or you, you'll find that Smallpox is completely unnecessary.
Liliana already has the creature sacrifice area covered, and your other targeted removal combines with her much better than something that can strip you down for no good reason. The one life is more relevant for you than it is for your opponent in this type of deck, especially since you're running Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom already. Getting rid of a land at the cost of one of your own doesn't really advance your game with this deck either.
You really should test out some versions of the more popular lists on here, see what it is that makes them successful against a variety of threats, and then tweak accordingly. Let us know what you come up with that works!
Yeah, I really don't like smallpox all that much. I just thought it deserved testing. I am more than likely going to cut the scrying sheets and go back to the normal manabase. I just made the deck much more convoluted than it needs to be.
As for a budget version, what is the recommended build? I don't have the funds to fork over for lilianas at the moment.
Very rarely do I find I need buried ruin. I was running it for the longest time and it wasn't relevant 99% of the time. I guess it just isn't necessary in my meta. I am also running 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth. It's rare that I have a problem reaching my double black threshold. I just don't want to risk running 8 colorless lands. 6 seems to be perfect IMO.[/card]
When you put more hours in with the deck and start to have a few hands were you get 1 black mana producing land and don't top deck into more for a few turns an epiphany could happen. Until then, continue on with the lands you see fit.
From the discussion I've seen, smallpox seems to have its fans and its haters. I didn't like it as first, but it is extremely relevant vs pod and other decks that use mana dorks. I've seen people keep one land hands and a birds of paradise. Smallpox shuts that down hardcore. Also, smallpox seems a lot worse in the lists running Bobs. I'm running two as a trial run. I feel like it deserves more testing than just to say it's "bad"
I've tested and played Smallpox more than anyone I know, and from what I've seen anyone I've heard of on the forums. I have played a half-a-dozen decks that have used 2-4 smallpox from loam, to BG, to mono black, to WBR and each deck utilizes Smallpox different. There is a ton of testing and knowledge here done by MemoryLapse for all of us to learn from, use and gain insight, Smallpox has been tested in 8rack. Even if Smallpox was a perfect fit for 8rack it's awful vs Pod unless you go first, have 2 black mana on turn 2 and they drop a manadork.... even then it's a 3 for 3, you lose smallpox, discard and a land, they lose land, creature and discard. You could have used the awful Funeral charm at that point for a 1for1 with a similar result. Late game smallpox when they have Voice, Finks, wall of roots with -0/-3 on it, etc, etc is complete garbage.
Funeral Charm doesn't seem that bad in a meta full of snapcaster mage and other 1 toughness creatures. As with smallpox, I feel like it deserves testing. The instant speed discard also isn't irrelevant either.
Once Snapcaster has landed he has already done his work, similar with Clique, I hope you aren't serious that Funeral Charm is your silver bullet vs Snapcasters...
As for the 2 ensnaring bridge main, I find myself drawing multiples way to often. Magic is all about testing different amounts of cards instead of just throwing a playset and calling it good. I will probably find myself going back to the traditional 8 rack lists, but I like to experiment and make stuff my own. Whether or not that is a good thing is another matter.
Again, the numbers have been tested and Bridge is a 4 of in 8rack. I would play 5 or 6 if I could. The reason so many people are playing Spellskite, Buried Ruin, etc is ENSNARING BRDIGE, think about it.
My comments in red*purple*.
I changed your to purple because red is for moderators only... I'm sure you'll get an email about it soon. My text is green.
On the topic of funeral charm
While I agree that the snapcasters have already done what it is meant to do, the beatdown route is something I find that I can't beat all the time. I would like to at least have the option to have the versatility of being able to take one out if need be. I understand that it is jack of all trades, master of none. I like the ability to kill something with my discard.
I basically have the same argument for smallpox. It's removal and discard. Sure it's card disadvantage. As for the Pod example you gave. I don't think any single kill spell would do any good in that situation. Targeting removal would be better of course.
As for the ensnaring bridge, 4 will more than likely be the right number, I just like testing out different numbers.
My apologies about the red text.
As a side note, I understand that you are a veteran to 8 rack. I've seen your posts many times in the thread so far. I just don't like the condescending tone that you have sometimes. Not intending to start anything, just wanted to point it out.
Have a good day.
With some of the recent posters talking about possible solutions for long stalemates, opponents holding/drawing cards to avoid rack effects, wanting life gain, etc...I wanted to chime in again to advocate a 1-of .
It is an alternate win con for long games, life gain if you need it, works after being pitched to Lili, uses the same retrace loop as so no extra jank is needed and you don't need to splash another color. As I mentioned before, I had a memorable situation against Merfolk where they were drawing/holding cards and it ended up a draw because I didn't commit to the loop when I should have rather than trying to topdeck discard him down to rack range. As for what to take out for it, it is up to you...I have it in a spot for now because I'm still missing the 4th.
syphon life is a card that I've considered lately. It helps mitigate the damage the aggro decks give you before you can stabilize.
It would also be relevant in my deck as I've gone the scrying sheets route for retrace advantage. I don't have to retrace raven's crime all the time either.
"As a result" you are also not running Buried Ruin, Academy Ruins or a 3rd and 4th manaland.... on TOP of not running Dakmor salvage and yet 6 lands that do not produce black mana. I don't know of any other lists that run more than 4 lands that don't produce black. That just on topic of the lands.
Very rarely do I find I need buried ruin. I was running it for the longest time and it wasn't relevant 99% of the time. I guess it just isn't necessary in my meta. I am also running 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth. It's rare that I have a problem reaching my double black threshold. I just don't want to risk running 8 colorless lands. 6 seems to be perfect IMO.[/card]
Smallpox - bad. There has been enough discussion in this thread to cover Smallpox in 8rack.
From the discussion I've seen, smallpox seems to have its fans and its haters. I didn't like it as first, but it is extremely relevant vs pod and other decks that use mana dorks. I've seen people keep one land hands and a birds of paradise. Smallpox shuts that down hardcore. Also, smallpox seems a lot worse in the lists running Bobs. I'm running two as a trial run. I feel like it deserves more testing than just to say it's "bad"
Funeral Charm - bad. Does more things, but worse. For example it doesn't do as much as either Darkblast or Disfigure in the form of creature removal and is a pretty awful discard spell.
Funeral Charm doesn't seem that bad in a meta full of snapcaster mage and other 1 toughness creatures. As with smallpox, I feel like it deserves testing. The instant speed discard also isn't irrelevant either.
As for the 2 ensnaring bridge main, I find myself drawing multiples way to often. Magic is all about testing different amounts of cards instead of just throwing a playset and calling it good. I will probably find myself going back to the traditional 8 rack lists, but I like to experiment and make stuff my own. Whether or not that is a good thing is another matter.
This is the list I am currently testing. The one major thing that is different is the fact that I am testing out the scrying sheets and snow lands for extra card advantage. As a result, I am not running dakmor salvage. I find that I almost never have to dredge it, and now that I'm getting extra land draws essentially, I found them unnecessary. A downside to the scrying sheets plan is that I am uncomfortable running the full amount of mutavaults. I am scared enough as it is hitting double black for my spells.
I have been playing around with a mono-black variant with Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker at the helm.
Here's what I've noticed:
With the first six apostles (I run 36) I get the Rune-scarred demon. With it I get one of the three key cards: Thrumming Stone, Nykthos, shrine to Nyx, or the crypt.
Once I cast the thrumming stone I then get the rest of my 30 remaining Apostles. The next 6 goes and fetches the Extractor Demon.
the next 6 goes to fetch the harvester of souls while milling 12 cards. the next 6 fetch Kagemaro, first to suffer but first milling 12 and drawing 6. I repeat until all 30 are sacrificed and I have milled 48 cards and drawn 18 cards. Using the cards drawn and paying attention to when to drop a land, I use Songs of the Damned to add at least 36 to my mana pool. alternately you can use Nykthos to tap for 32B with 30 apostles and 1 rune-scarred demon in play. Somewhere along the way, I will have played out 36 apostles, about 5 lands, 5 demons (rune-scarred, extractor, harvester, kagemaro and reaper from the abyss), a thrumming stone and drawn 18 additional cards. This see me sitting at 68 cards of my deck drawn up at the minimum. My I then can use a tutor, or scroll rack, etc to get the needed get bitter ordeal if I haven't drawn it already. Since I should have had at least 30 creatures hit the graveyard, I can decide if I need to 'set-off' Kagemaro to give all creatures in play roughly -20/-20 to up count the gravestorm count. From there it's easy to remove another 31-35 cards from opponent's library. Ending the turn, you'll have milled ~54 cards (kagemaro setting off mills even more cards than the 48 milled by the original 24 apostles). Given the turn count of 5 turns, then you'll see a total of 7+5+54+35 removed or milled from your opponent. a total of 101 cards of their 99 card library.
This method provides a win with no attack needed
Other cards to consider: Ice Cauldron so you can combo out easier. Set a demon or thrumming stone into the cauldron at the end of their turn. Untap, use the Cauldron to cast your higher cost combo piece out (say a thrumming stone or rune-scarred demon) while leaving enough mana open to combo-out with the B costing apostles. Generally at 4 lands in play, your can Thrumming Stone for 1 plus the 4 you pumped into it, then leave BBB to cast the apostles. If you're lucky you can go-off on the first try and get the Rune-scarred demon to get Nykthos to tap for BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB to finish up the day as described previously.
TL-DR if you're using harvester demon then please us bitter ordeal to finish the game off. Also Nkythos, shrine to nyx makes insane 32 B mana along with songs of the damned to add another 36 B mana to your mana pool.
I typically search for Harvestor of Souls first unless I have both thrumming stone and bloodbond march, then I will search for extractor demon because I can sac the apostles in between bloodbond triggers. That will rack up a lot of milling. Probably enough to kill the table.
I like that this deck really wants Sek'kuar at the helm. He's been looking for a good place and this could be it. Kresh the Bloodbraided would be very good here, too. You should definitely look into Patriarch's Bidding and Coat of Arms. both could be ridiculous for you. Xenagos the Reveler has synergies, too. Of course being in green gives you the usual Tooth and Nail and Defense of the Heart silliness. Scroll Rack will let you put Demons sitting in your hand back in the library to be fished out, and can also help set up Thrumming Stone.
I am more of a combo deck that a "demon" deck. That is one way to take the deck. I just thought that would be an obvious way to take the deck and I like to make decks in different ways. Scroll Rack is an awesome consideration.
Thrumming Stone actually casts all 31 apostles. Tendrils of Agony is a pretty good card here, since you can tutor it by sacrificing apostles for a Runescarred Demon, and you don't instantly lose to a counterspell on your Bloodbound March.
That is another thing I've thought about. It's very easy to rack up a massive storm count. It is a very good win con and it is "counter proof" in a way.
True, it just seems improbable that a lab maniac would survive through all that. I don't have it in my sideboard. I just don't see a need for it personally.
That seems really risky, although you will have all the pacts you should need in your hand. That's assuming they don't just kill the maniac in response to ad nauseam.
Another thing I love about the deck is not many people know how to play around the deck. Most time they name lightning storm with nevermore or runed halo. This allows me to ad nauseam for value and find answers.
That is true, I just would hard cast it in that case. Gitaxian probe wouldn't work after you draw your whole deck. You can't pay life that you don't have.
Also for the rule of law I have the card from future sight that you can cast for free if you cast a white spell that turn and it destroys all enchantments. Can't remember the name right of hand though.
It's rare when I am able to do it at sorcery speed. Most of the time, it has to be instant speed. A ton of control online.
Am I going to far with this?
Well I was also having a bad morning so my apologies for that. I guess my problem is that I don't want to just copy a netdeck. I have nothing against netdecking in general, I just like to push my limits as a deckbuilder even if it makes the deck worse as a whole. Maybe I'll go down to 2 scrying sheets and add another mutavault and a dakmor salvage. My opinion of the retrace raven's crime plan is that I would rather scrying sheets for lands instead of dredging back dakmor salvage. Sure, I see two cards instead of one and when I am wanting to dredge, I am most likely in control and want to hit racks. I will have to add the buried ruin back which brings me back to the original without the scrying sheets.
Yeah, I really don't like smallpox all that much. I just thought it deserved testing. I am more than likely going to cut the scrying sheets and go back to the normal manabase. I just made the deck much more convoluted than it needs to be.
As for a budget version, what is the recommended build? I don't have the funds to fork over for lilianas at the moment.
On the topic of funeral charm
While I agree that the snapcasters have already done what it is meant to do, the beatdown route is something I find that I can't beat all the time. I would like to at least have the option to have the versatility of being able to take one out if need be. I understand that it is jack of all trades, master of none. I like the ability to kill something with my discard.
I basically have the same argument for smallpox. It's removal and discard. Sure it's card disadvantage. As for the Pod example you gave. I don't think any single kill spell would do any good in that situation. Targeting removal would be better of course.
As for the ensnaring bridge, 4 will more than likely be the right number, I just like testing out different numbers.
My apologies about the red text.
As a side note, I understand that you are a veteran to 8 rack. I've seen your posts many times in the thread so far. I just don't like the condescending tone that you have sometimes. Not intending to start anything, just wanted to point it out.
Have a good day.
syphon life is a card that I've considered lately. It helps mitigate the damage the aggro decks give you before you can stabilize.
It would also be relevant in my deck as I've gone the scrying sheets route for retrace advantage. I don't have to retrace raven's crime all the time either.
My comments in red.
12 snow-covered swamp
2 mutavault
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 scrying sheets
Discard Suite:
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 raven's crime
4 wrench mind
2 smallpox
2 funeral charm
4 liliana of the veil
Racks/Threats:
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
2 bitterblossom
Pure Removal:
2 victim of night
Bridges:
2 ensnaring bridge
2 ensnaring bridge
This is the list I am currently testing. The one major thing that is different is the fact that I am testing out the scrying sheets and snow lands for extra card advantage. As a result, I am not running dakmor salvage. I find that I almost never have to dredge it, and now that I'm getting extra land draws essentially, I found them unnecessary. A downside to the scrying sheets plan is that I am uncomfortable running the full amount of mutavaults. I am scared enough as it is hitting double black for my spells.
Thoughts?
This will be a new thing in modern, I'm calling it right now.
I typically search for Harvestor of Souls first unless I have both thrumming stone and bloodbond march, then I will search for extractor demon because I can sac the apostles in between bloodbond triggers. That will rack up a lot of milling. Probably enough to kill the table.
I am more of a combo deck that a "demon" deck. That is one way to take the deck. I just thought that would be an obvious way to take the deck and I like to make decks in different ways. Scroll Rack is an awesome consideration.
That is another thing I've thought about. It's very easy to rack up a massive storm count. It is a very good win con and it is "counter proof" in a way.