I know that affinity is the premier artifact aggro deck in modern, but Tempered Steel seems like it has such a high power level that it warrants a shot in the modern format. Are there any white-based aggro shells like the old standard deck or other color combos that could take advantage of the card?
Been running this for a while. Not exactly analogous to your deck, but there are some things you can take away from it. Those things would be more whips and maybe spellheart chimera. The thing that I am afraid of right now for your deck is that although one of the central tenants for you is the duskmantle seer, I don't see it being that good until we get more things along the lines of delver and tragic slip back.
I will also say if you are determined to run duskmantle, I would also include 3 or more copies of devour flesh. You want to be able to eat the seer if he starts hurting you too bad.
I'm definitely also concerned about the life loss. My list doesn't seem capable of coming back when it's behind, which is a bummer. The game plan is built to mitigate this though, since it's based around early removal to get the tempo advantage around turn 4 when the threats start coming down. It's definitely a valid concern, though. More whips would help a bit for sure.
Spellheart seems like a nice whip target. I'm sketchy about it for my list because I really don't like playing a creature that can die to Anger. Since if I Anger it away I can't whip it back later. I hear you on the Devour Flesh to keep Seer in check, though.
I really do like Duskmantle Seer as a finisher because he puts a clock on the game as a whole, usually putting you ahead because your opponent has to deal with the life loss plus 4 points of flying power smacking them every turn.
One thing that makes me iffy about Stormbreath is that he requires a mana investment to get the most out of him. Seer and Des Demon let you sit on your mana to make sure you maintain control of the board. I wouldn't say he's more powerful than Seer, but that they are each more powerful in different ways.
You seem really knowledgeable on deckbuilding and you justify every choice/cut you make. I can appreciate that.
Now, about the deck. I've been trying to make UB work ever since Theros dropped and the easiest pitfall is trying to do something that another deck can do better. You need to ask yourself, "Okay, so why play this deck instead of x?" over and over again.
So, let's see. Why play your deck over Mono U?
-Relatively same power level achieved by cutting trashy creatures for powerful removal/disruption spells.
-More diverse threats due to the inclusion of Pack Rat and Lifebane.
Looks solid to me. The only problem I could see is the mana base being a little clunky. Playing 4 shocks just for weird seems a bit ambitious, but if it's been working for you, keep it going. I haven't tested with it.
Also, the UWx or UW control matchup looks horrendous. After board the counters make it better, but Verdict/Dsphere just demolishes you. Maybe board some copies of Duress? I've found that trying to flip into a control/aggro build versus pure control is worse than just getting more aggressive and disruptive.
If BNG gives this deck some really good stuff then maybe, otherwise I just don't think red contributes nearly as much as white does. Elspeth, Blood Baron, Revelation, Verdict are all powerful tools for Esper that Grixis doesn't have access to.
not nearly enough counters for running blue
-Steam augury is too luck-based with so few fluid spells and just an inferior draw spell compared to Sphinx's Revelation, Jace 4.0 and Opportunity
Truth be told, adding BNG in the title was just to ensure it got attention. I'm aware it isn't totally accurate. Also, it's probably not right to think of this deck as a "control" deck in the same vein as Esper or UW. This deck is not Esper with red instead of white. It's base RB with a small splash of U for Steam Augury and Duskmantle Seer along with a few counterspells.
Since the deck is based in Rakdos colors and only splashing blue, adding too many UU mana symbols would compromise the consistency of the deck and slow it down. It's hard to get a draw that lets you cast Downfall, Anger, and Dissolve all within a reasonable time frame.
Regarding some of the points brought up:
-Many of the most powerful creatures in standard are answered easily between Lightning Strike and Anger. Nightveil Spectre, Pack Rat, Master of Waves (Anger wipes the tokens, which makes him much less scary), Soldier of the Pantheon, Voice of Resurgence, and Sylvan Caryatid can all be dealt with with ease.
-The deck works by running finishers with evasion that survive Anger and force an answer. If they go unanswered, they put the opponent on a very fast clock. The removal suite lets you keep the board clear until you drop a threat that can seal the deal. I believe Steam Augury to be one of the most underrated cards in standard. It's the best instant-speed draw spell below Revelation. It digs 5 cards deep for just 4 mana, and lets you almost always finds you what you need. If you fear that your opponent might deny you the one card you want, split it 1-4. Either you get what you need, or you get 4 fresh cards in hand. Win-win.
-Keyrune, while a bit less efficient, holds back Mutavault and pressures Walkers quite well if I don't have a kill spell for them. Return, Strike, and evasive creatures all do a great job with them as well. Running more downfalls just for planeswalker removal would just clutter the deck, since it already has so much game against creatures.
With all this in mind, I'd like some constructive input on how to improve the strategy rather than trying to steer me away from the color combo and into some other one.
With access to more on-color scry lands next set, I feel that Grixis could be in a really powerful spot.
Pros:
Red removal (Anger, Lightning Strike) to deal with early threats (Pack Rats, Spectres, Soldiers, etc)
Black removal for mid-late game threats (Downfall, Dreadbore)
Powerful card draw in Steam Augury
Disruption in Thoughtseize and Rakdos' Return
All of these give you good game against almost any strategy, and together with Duskmantle Seer (who I believe is at his strongest right now) and Desecration Demon, you have the capability of taking control of any boardstate. Thoughts?
The manabase could use a little work. Messing with the numbers on temples/basics might yield better results. I'd like to find room for at least one basic island.
I've done a good bit of testing with an earlier iteration, both online and at FnM (not that legit, I know) which was less consistent. At the time I didn't know what I wanted to do with the deck, and U/W wasn't that prominent. It only had 2 Ashiok, it had more splits and fewer 4-ofs, etc. What I found was that it was really solid against devotion and midrange because of the removal/counter suite, but really soft against control strategies because of the wealth of dead cards and the ease with which they can answer our threats (MoW sucks vs Verdict/Last Breath/Detention Sphere). THat's where the sideboard comes in with this version, though.
I hear you on Master, I feel that Pack Rat would be a much better alternative since it doesn't need any other cards to work and it would definitely help our curve.
Thassa seems like an interesting one. Devotion isn't completely impossible with Spectre, Jace, and Ashiok. I'll definitely try her out.
The basic idea is to combine some of the most powerful cards in standard (MoW, Pack Rat, Nightveil) together in a shell that can take advantage of both black removal/disruption and blue countermagic/draw. The main draw to this deck is Ashiok. With the advent of U/W strategies using elixir for infinite recursion, having a 3 mana planeswalker capable of exiling cards for good can really throw a spanner in their plans. The sideboard is mostly for U/W based control decks. Countermagic, needles for Elspeth/Elixir, Duress for hand disruption, and Underworld Connections to keep up with card advantage in a way that requires them to either D-Sphere or fight a counter war.
Any suggestions for answers to Blood Baron in a UB deck?
Every time that card has resolved I just lose because it dodges all of my removal and lifelink makes it impossible for me to race it. Ideas?
So, I'm running a UB Control deck and I've been playtesting pretty successfully against almost every archetype (obviously having a harder time with aggro, but through SB I've been breaking even). However, one deck type that I just can't seem to beat is GB Midrange. Cheap, powerful creatures like Deathrite, Lotleth Troll, and Scavenging Ooze are just too efficient and plentiful in those decks for me to be removing them 1-for-1, because they just come down so much easier than I can get them off the board. Then after I've tapped myself out and gone through most of my removal on their little threats, big hitters like Reaper of the Wilds and Desecration Demon come down and finish me off before I can put a meaningful threat out. Any suggestions on some sideboard modifications I could make?
A friend and I have thought a lot about this. How do you deal with and/or beat certain cards.
Sphinx Rev
Supreme Verdict
Assemble the Legion
Sphinx's Revelation:
Counter with Psychic Strike and/or Dispel after Sideboard, or flash in a Notion Thief with counter backup.
Supreme Verdict:
The only thing this really hits is Frostburn Weird and Demon, since Aetherling can blink out, and since both of the other creatures are pretty much expendable I'm not affected much by it.
Assemble the Legion and/or Elspeth:
Jace, Architect of Thoughts' +1. GOOD DAY, SIR.
(Also a Ratchet Bomb at 5 to kill the enchant or one at 0 to wipe out the tokens)
I'd suggest playing DesDemons.
Yout got really heavy package of removal so he can actually stabilize board against aggro. And against control you don't have to commit to the board until they take him off. He's finisher, not as resilient as Aetherling but comes at least 2 turns earlier (more often 3-4). Remember there is Slaughter Games- if they remove your Aetherlings you don't have reliable finisher- they need only 4 removal for PWs. I'd suggest some mill in sideboard because it's really good against slower decks, especially with hand disruption- pair of Mind Grinds or bigger Jaces can win games. Like Ashiok in this list, definitely needs a lot of playtesting since it is one of the most unique cards (at least in standard).
Yea, I was just thinking about the DesDemons last night when I was making cuts for Frostburn and draw spells. I don't like being super reliant on Aetherling. Also I do love the idea of having mill as an alt win condition but Jace, Memory Adept seems a little too slow/killable for me, but that was in a really early build and working him in now could prove valuable.
Hmmm, I can see how Frostburn could be useful. I think because Corrupt is such a late game card and can be kind of conditional, it's passable to run it as a one of. I've got one underworld connections main and one sided just because against aggressive decks, it's not a good play, but can be very potent against long, drawn out control matchups.
How about Underworld Connections for additional draw? I forgot about that and Read the Bones in my list of draw spells, derped and forgot black was a color. Both of those are quite good cards. Connections is something you don't want too many of though, and they both unfortunately cost three so they're pretty bad with two land hands or during a mulligan which is the real issue with draw suites right now.
To make up for the life loss Pharika's Cure and Corrupt can renew your life total. What about something like this
Corrupt would definitely be an interesting inclusion, I hadn't thought of that. It lets me drop the Whip of Erebos (which was underwhelming, honestly) and run another haymaker that really makes an impact when I drop it. I like. I run Psychic Strike over Dissolve because it's easier on the mana and I get a lot of scry out of lands and Omenspeaker. I'm not a fan of sorcery speed draw or paying too much life for draw, which pretty much strikes off Read the Bones. I was running Underworld Connections but I just find it too slow and would rather run more action spells in its place. I'm also just not a fan of Frostburn Weird.
I'm definitely also concerned about the life loss. My list doesn't seem capable of coming back when it's behind, which is a bummer. The game plan is built to mitigate this though, since it's based around early removal to get the tempo advantage around turn 4 when the threats start coming down. It's definitely a valid concern, though. More whips would help a bit for sure.
Spellheart seems like a nice whip target. I'm sketchy about it for my list because I really don't like playing a creature that can die to Anger. Since if I Anger it away I can't whip it back later. I hear you on the Devour Flesh to keep Seer in check, though.
I really do like Duskmantle Seer as a finisher because he puts a clock on the game as a whole, usually putting you ahead because your opponent has to deal with the life loss plus 4 points of flying power smacking them every turn.
One thing that makes me iffy about Stormbreath is that he requires a mana investment to get the most out of him. Seer and Des Demon let you sit on your mana to make sure you maintain control of the board. I wouldn't say he's more powerful than Seer, but that they are each more powerful in different ways.
4 Watery Grave
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Izzet Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Island
Creatures
4 Duskmantle Seer
4 Desecration Demon
2 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Whip of Erebos
Instants
2 Izzet Charm
2 Dimir Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Steam Augury
1 Quicken
3 Devour Flesh
Sorceries
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Thoughtseize
That's the latest list.
Now, about the deck. I've been trying to make UB work ever since Theros dropped and the easiest pitfall is trying to do something that another deck can do better. You need to ask yourself, "Okay, so why play this deck instead of x?" over and over again.
So, let's see. Why play your deck over Mono U?
-Relatively same power level achieved by cutting trashy creatures for powerful removal/disruption spells.
-More diverse threats due to the inclusion of Pack Rat and Lifebane.
Looks solid to me. The only problem I could see is the mana base being a little clunky. Playing 4 shocks just for weird seems a bit ambitious, but if it's been working for you, keep it going. I haven't tested with it.
Also, the UWx or UW control matchup looks horrendous. After board the counters make it better, but Verdict/Dsphere just demolishes you. Maybe board some copies of Duress? I've found that trying to flip into a control/aggro build versus pure control is worse than just getting more aggressive and disruptive.
Truth be told, adding BNG in the title was just to ensure it got attention. I'm aware it isn't totally accurate. Also, it's probably not right to think of this deck as a "control" deck in the same vein as Esper or UW. This deck is not Esper with red instead of white. It's base RB with a small splash of U for Steam Augury and Duskmantle Seer along with a few counterspells.
Since the deck is based in Rakdos colors and only splashing blue, adding too many UU mana symbols would compromise the consistency of the deck and slow it down. It's hard to get a draw that lets you cast Downfall, Anger, and Dissolve all within a reasonable time frame.
Regarding some of the points brought up:
-Many of the most powerful creatures in standard are answered easily between Lightning Strike and Anger. Nightveil Spectre, Pack Rat, Master of Waves (Anger wipes the tokens, which makes him much less scary), Soldier of the Pantheon, Voice of Resurgence, and Sylvan Caryatid can all be dealt with with ease.
-The deck works by running finishers with evasion that survive Anger and force an answer. If they go unanswered, they put the opponent on a very fast clock. The removal suite lets you keep the board clear until you drop a threat that can seal the deal. I believe Steam Augury to be one of the most underrated cards in standard. It's the best instant-speed draw spell below Revelation. It digs 5 cards deep for just 4 mana, and lets you almost always finds you what you need. If you fear that your opponent might deny you the one card you want, split it 1-4. Either you get what you need, or you get 4 fresh cards in hand. Win-win.
-Keyrune, while a bit less efficient, holds back Mutavault and pressures Walkers quite well if I don't have a kill spell for them. Return, Strike, and evasive creatures all do a great job with them as well. Running more downfalls just for planeswalker removal would just clutter the deck, since it already has so much game against creatures.
With all this in mind, I'd like some constructive input on how to improve the strategy rather than trying to steer me away from the color combo and into some other one.
Pros:
Red removal (Anger, Lightning Strike) to deal with early threats (Pack Rats, Spectres, Soldiers, etc)
Black removal for mid-late game threats (Downfall, Dreadbore)
Powerful card draw in Steam Augury
Disruption in Thoughtseize and Rakdos' Return
All of these give you good game against almost any strategy, and together with Duskmantle Seer (who I believe is at his strongest right now) and Desecration Demon, you have the capability of taking control of any boardstate. Thoughts?
4 Watery Grave
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate (Temple of Malice)
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
Creatures
4 Duskmantle Seer
4 Desecration Demon
Artifacts
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Lightning Strike
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Izzet Charm
2 Syncopate
4 Steam Augury
2 Quicken
Sorceries
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Dreadbore
2 Thoughtseize
The manabase could use a little work. Messing with the numbers on temples/basics might yield better results. I'd like to find room for at least one basic island.
I hear you on Master, I feel that Pack Rat would be a much better alternative since it doesn't need any other cards to work and it would definitely help our curve.
Thassa seems like an interesting one. Devotion isn't completely impossible with Spectre, Jace, and Ashiok. I'll definitely try her out.
4 Mutavault
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
7 Swamp
7 Island
Creatures: 8
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Master of Waves (considering making these Pack Rats)
Planeswalkers: 8
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Dimir Charm
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissolve
1 Pharika's Cure
Sorceries: 5
3 Divination
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts: 1
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gainsay
2 Negate
3 Wall of Frost
3 Duress
2 Underworld Connections
Every time that card has resolved I just lose because it dodges all of my removal and lifelink makes it impossible for me to race it. Ideas?
9 Island
9 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
Creatures (6)
2 Aetherling
2 Frostburn Weird
2 Desecration Demon
Spells (24)
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
3 Warped Physique
2 Doom Blade
3 Opportunity
3 Psychic Strike
2 Inaction Injunction
1 Corrupt
1 Underworld Connections
1 Syncopate
2 Disperse
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Notion Thief
2 Dispel
2 Woodlot Crawler
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Mind Grind
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Here's my UB Control decklist. Yea, not very much out of Theros, but still very effective.
Sphinx's Revelation:
Counter with Psychic Strike and/or Dispel after Sideboard, or flash in a Notion Thief with counter backup.
Supreme Verdict:
The only thing this really hits is Frostburn Weird and Demon, since Aetherling can blink out, and since both of the other creatures are pretty much expendable I'm not affected much by it.
Assemble the Legion and/or Elspeth:
Jace, Architect of Thoughts' +1. GOOD DAY, SIR.
(Also a Ratchet Bomb at 5 to kill the enchant or one at 0 to wipe out the tokens)
Yea, I was just thinking about the DesDemons last night when I was making cuts for Frostburn and draw spells. I don't like being super reliant on Aetherling. Also I do love the idea of having mill as an alt win condition but Jace, Memory Adept seems a little too slow/killable for me, but that was in a really early build and working him in now could prove valuable.
9 Island
9 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
Creatures (5)
2 Aetherling
3 Frostburn Weird
Instants (19)
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
3 Warped Physique
2 Doom Blade
3 Opportunity
4 Psychic Strike
1 Syncopate
4 Inaction Injunction
1 Corrupt
Enchantments (1)
1 Underworld Connections
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Notion Thief
3 Dispel
3 Woodlot Crawler
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Underworld Connections
Hmmm, I can see how Frostburn could be useful. I think because Corrupt is such a late game card and can be kind of conditional, it's passable to run it as a one of. I've got one underworld connections main and one sided just because against aggressive decks, it's not a good play, but can be very potent against long, drawn out control matchups.
Corrupt would definitely be an interesting inclusion, I hadn't thought of that. It lets me drop the Whip of Erebos (which was underwhelming, honestly) and run another haymaker that really makes an impact when I drop it. I like. I run Psychic Strike over Dissolve because it's easier on the mana and I get a lot of scry out of lands and Omenspeaker. I'm not a fan of sorcery speed draw or paying too much life for draw, which pretty much strikes off Read the Bones. I was running Underworld Connections but I just find it too slow and would rather run more action spells in its place. I'm also just not a fan of Frostburn Weird.