I like flayer too, though they can be pretty bad.
I've found I often struggled to get delirium quickly enough, which just has him sitting on board as a 2/2 unable to attack, applying no pressure.
With delirium active and when he's able to attack he's gas though.
Been testing my 2 drop creature slot a lot recently, had 4x flayer 2x scooze before but having so many 2/2s was really awkward.
Testing 2x flayer 4x goyf currently and so far it feels good.
@theflyingdeer Your list is interesting, you aren't running much green, how tempted are you just to go straight esper?
As for search for azcanta I've been meaning to test it, it seems like an easy include. Helps fill the gy and digs for spells, which we often run many of. If anyone is testing it I'd be really interested in how it played.
Here's my current list that I'm about to go into the top 4 of a local league with.
Pretty sure I'm up against eldrazi tron which I have no experience playing against and which seems like a pretty bad matchup. Any gameplay and sideboarding advice?
Thanks, you've given me a lot to chew on.
Really unsure on the meta still, so generalised info is really helpful. Have just finished assembling a list on MODO too, so I should be able to start jamming games more frequently, and I imagine it's a bit more tricky to refine for a meta as open as the one online.
I'll keep playing around with it and post my results.
Do you recommend extra sideboard GY hate despite MB scooze?
Speaking of, am I too soft to GY hate relying on unburial rites, scooze and flayer? Though I suppose goyf is just as soft.
In the few games I've played so far I have liked flayer when I can connect with him, but have often struggled to do so.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
I have been seeing Iona maindeck a lot in more recent lists, Grave Titan is a lot more castable than either of the white fatties so I feel a bit better with one rotting in my hand is all, is there a particular reason people have shifted away from bombs like the gravy train and have started maindecking Iona? If she's that good in the meta I'll add her, just that I can see having two fatties that rely on reanimation that heavily could make for some awkward draws (though I guess grave titan is pretty awkward too).
You're right on tar pit which is saddening, the second blue hasn't been reliable.
I don't really know what I'm doing with my sideboard, I added batterskull because I already wanted to try running ruins+EE in the side so I figured I may as well run it as well. The landbase causes so much lifeloss that a grindy lifelinker seemed like a good idea but I see what you mean, unless equipped to something else, a 4/4 isn't impressive vs much of the field.
As long as I've played the deck there was usually a big grindy dude in the side like a thragtusk or batterkull, is this less necessary now too?
I only had to cast collective brutality a few times to realise 1 copy wasn't enough, I was planning to replace the timely's with them.
Only running day of judgement as the 3rd distinct unconditional boardwipe so I can gifts up damnation+day+wrath and be guaranteed to get one. Replacing with another damnation wouldn't allow that, and if I was going to do that I may as well just replace the wrath of god too.
Bontu's is interesting though, have you had any luck with it?
Been a while since I've posted here!
Dusting off my modern decks after almost a year's hiatus and decided to work on my gifts deck for my first event.
Pretty unfamiliar with the new meta still, and haven't tested a lot of the new choice cards like flayer and brutality yet.
Opinions and criticisms on my prototype list would be greatly appreciated, seems like some pretty solid discussion has been going on here. I'm especially unsure on the sideboard and landbase.
Was very tempted to try the new esper Goryo list, seems really strong. I'm a sucker for loam though...
Here's what I'm considering submitting for a coming local league:
Surprised people are considering sword in this deck. I get that we run a lot of 1/1s, it still seems a bit mediocre without the combo, and I don't think we have the space or the build appropriate to support it.
AV unban is exciting, it is a slow card though, so I'm trying not to get my hopes unrealistically high, but it is still good news.
Bad news for me is that I didn't expect any unbans alongside the eldrazi bans, so I thought I had at least another 3 months to pick up my copies... ugh.
Cuts are tricky of course, I think I'll try cutting my last snapcaster, 1 of my 3 mistbinds, and I'll see if I can justify dropping back to 25 lands. Do I still need MB ghost quarters now that eye is gone?
Faeries players have been saying for a long time that we need some form of workable life gain, I think we assumed that was primarily due to bitterblossom, but it may well be that our deck style in general simply has trouble coping in modern where we just die to a burn spell off the top, or a resilient threat when we try to play the long game.
AV is definitely not an auto 4-of in every blue deck, you are severely overrating it. While it is strong, it is slow, the opponent knows about it well before it does anything and can play around it, and it is an absolutely terrible late topdeck.
If AV somehow made storm great I would be very happy, that is a great mu for us
Ancestral visions doesn't work with snapcaster, but they're good in the same style of decks.
If visions is unbanned, our deck will likely shift to a slower, more controlling style, where we want snapcasters, which makes them worthwhile to buy now, as they may rise once visions is unbanned.
You don't think AV could benefit scion-style tempo builds more than slower control builds? I don't think AV is good enough to change the fact that proactive>reactive when it comes to modern, and landing BBs and scions backed up by improved tempo and card advantage seems like where I'd want to be with AV.
That said, I think people are putting way too much stock in Forsythe's tweet. I think AV is a potential unban, and has been for some time, but people seem to be convinced AV is coming off based on very little info.
I am going to start testing Beleren and Ashiok soon.
I am sceptical of both, but Osman seems to consistently run Beleren which I think is enough reason to test it, and I want to like Ashiok, so people here who run it have given me (likely false) hope.
Jace AoT just seems too slow to bother, I am already clogged at 4cmc. Being able to immediately fact or fiction seems strong, but I think my 4cmc spells are strong enough, I need more early game.
As others have said, Liliana isn't great. Usually she is just 3cmc sorcery speed creature removal, which is often fine with the bonus potentially of running away with the game, but very often she is awkward or bad. As a draw-go deck with effectively no graveyard interaction, her +1 is usually a liability.
New Jace is a lot stronger than I originally credited him for, but in a deck where snapcaster mage feels awkward, I can't see him being any better. His loot effect isn't overly useful, we generally don't run enough disposable spells (as so many effects are tied to creatures) or ways to fill the graveyard with them to make his flip condition reliable, or give value from his flashback.
Even without a critical mass of flashback targets to back him up I can see him being reasonable if he is able to flip reliably (that seems a big if), as he can be quite sticky when he does, but I'm not sure he adds much to the deck that we're really looking for.
I'd love to be proven wrong though, it wouldn't be the first time with this card. Have you had a chance to play much with it?
I'm not a big fan of tasigur, or much delve at all for that matter in faeries, we just don't fill the graveyard fast or reliably enough for it to be efficient.
I've played around with a singleton murderous cut, and sometimes it was amazing, but most of the time I think it is worse than the alternatives. I run a 1-of snapcaster mage in the tasigur slot, and it can be a little awkward, but I like it a lot more than the banana king.
I agree that you shouldn't compare spell pierce to spell snare.
Also, those who've had experience with SoLaS, how much value do you get off the return from gy to hand trigger? Do you usually have the targets to make use of it?
My discard does often feel awkward, but I'm a bit wary of cutting it as it is our only out against things that b/u can't deal with otherwise. Also, turn 1 gives us invaluable information and potentially helps us protects a t2 bitterblossom.
I suppose that's why it's still in the sideboard, but how great have people been finding the mainboard disfigures? It seems like they'd be more awkward in a lot of matchups than discard. That said, I do find myself siding them in a lot.
Sigh, disfigure is very good at the moment, I just wish it wasn't such a bad card. Compared to the likes of thoughtseize, bolt, and path, it really is garbage, wish it said "and you gain 2 life" on the end.
The bw lifelink manland could be useful to help alleviate damage while also aiding a splash. It's certainly not as strong as tar pit, and I can see it being awkward to turn on and to safely swing with, but it's the only card I've seen in BFZ that made me think about faeries.
Still not sure a splash is where we want to be, but it seems more reasonable than colonnade for the esper builds.
Have to strongly disagree that mutavault is the weakest land, or that it is cuttable. Mutavault is so important for mistbind clique and spellstutter that I can not imagine running fewer than 4. Cutting mutavaults for a third colour really does not seem worth it.
I play jund, but I have to say, ruinator is the one card that makes me want to build bug. A 3cmc 5/6 flying ZOMBIE that can be cast from the yard has always been sweet, but in a meta currently saturated with gurmags and tasigurs he seems absolutely amazing. Flies over and flat out outclasses them.
Hey guys, just bought into Dredgevine as my first Modern deck a couple of weeks ago. Waiting on a few more cards to arrive to finish it (2x Gurmag Angler to replace Tasigurs), but here's what I've got at the moment and will probably be taking to its first event:
* Is it worth it to run the 1-of K-command and Murderous Cut? It feels like a lot of the time they'll just be being dredged into and won't serve any purpose but to be exiled to feed a delve creature, so I feel like cutting them might be worthwhile if it means I can go up to 4x on both GGT and Gurmag Angler.
* Speaking of GGT, I had 4 in the deck before but had the idea of cutting one and running 1x Shambling Shell instead. The theory is that, in a grindier matchup where my opponent has managed to get rid of my last zombie, I can continue to dredge and bring back the Shell, and since it counts as a Zombie for Gravecrawler, I can get my Vengevines back and go back on the offensive from an empty board state without having to try to draw into it. What do you guys think about this addition? Is it worth it to lose some power behind the dredge engine for this utility, or should it be relegated to the sideboard?
* How's the sideboard looking at the moment? I don't have any idea of what to expect from my local game store, so any feedback in this area is much appreciated
Thanks for reading
Looks good, I haven't played with shambling shell for a long time, I'm interested in how good it is for you. I'm currently testing rotting rats as a singleton, but I can see shambling shell potentially being better in that role.
As for your complaints with your instants, that is definitely a concern. I would recommend cutting them if it means more dredgers and anglers, 4 gurmags is very good, and I think more dredge is better than less.
Sideboard is very similar to mine, so looks good to me :D, but as always that depends on what you play against.
Only cards there I don't have in my 75 are slaughter games and rakdos charm. I've seen people run slaughter games before, but I don't really get it, it seems too slow to be useful. Turn 4 is already late vs a lot of relevant combo decks, and hitting 4 consecutive land drops off of 20 lands isn't always easy. Rakdos charm can be very versatile, but often is just irrelevant or mediocre. With ancient grudge available its artifact destruction mode is a little less necessary, so its usefulness depends on how much use you get out of the other niche modes. Might be worth including for versatility since you don't know what you'll be playing against, but I'm not a big fan.
As for suggestions, firespout has been impressing me recently, and spellskite is something to consider running in any modern sideboard.
Your complaints regarding murderous cut and kcommand have me wondering why so much disruption has been seeing play in mainboards. I've only come back to this deck recently so I'm a little out of touch, but I really don't like much mainboard interaction. I want to be dredging as often as possible, and if I'm not drawing regularly these spells are likely not getting to my hand. Not only that, but they are total trash in the GY. Most of my interaction is in the sideboard for this reason, i don't want to gum up my gameplan unless I feel I have to. I have lighning axes and darkblasts mainboard because they synergise with my gameplan, but I feel like a bunch of abrupt decays and murderous cuts would slow me down, and ultimately hurt more than help me.
I'm genuinely curious what is causing people to feel all this removal is necessary, what are primary targets for the likes of abrupt decay and murderous cut? Are they needed to clear away blockers? Specific threats? Or are you just trying to play a more grindy midrange game?
As a newbie I fell in love with Sheoldred as soon as I saw her, in awe of amazing ability and saw her creepy art. I still love Sheoldred and she commands one of my EDH decks.
I've found I often struggled to get delirium quickly enough, which just has him sitting on board as a 2/2 unable to attack, applying no pressure.
With delirium active and when he's able to attack he's gas though.
Been testing my 2 drop creature slot a lot recently, had 4x flayer 2x scooze before but having so many 2/2s was really awkward.
Testing 2x flayer 4x goyf currently and so far it feels good.
@theflyingdeer Your list is interesting, you aren't running much green, how tempted are you just to go straight esper?
As for search for azcanta I've been meaning to test it, it seems like an easy include. Helps fill the gy and digs for spells, which we often run many of. If anyone is testing it I'd be really interested in how it played.
Here's my current list that I'm about to go into the top 4 of a local league with.
Pretty sure I'm up against eldrazi tron which I have no experience playing against and which seems like a pretty bad matchup. Any gameplay and sideboarding advice?
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 tarmogoyf
2 Grim Flayer
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Disruption
1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Other
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Lingering Souls
1 Shambling Vent
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
1 Celestial Purge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 nihil spellbomb
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Terastodon
Really unsure on the meta still, so generalised info is really helpful. Have just finished assembling a list on MODO too, so I should be able to start jamming games more frequently, and I imagine it's a bit more tricky to refine for a meta as open as the one online.
I'll keep playing around with it and post my results.
Do you recommend extra sideboard GY hate despite MB scooze?
Speaking of, am I too soft to GY hate relying on unburial rites, scooze and flayer? Though I suppose goyf is just as soft.
In the few games I've played so far I have liked flayer when I can connect with him, but have often struggled to do so.
I have been seeing Iona maindeck a lot in more recent lists, Grave Titan is a lot more castable than either of the white fatties so I feel a bit better with one rotting in my hand is all, is there a particular reason people have shifted away from bombs like the gravy train and have started maindecking Iona? If she's that good in the meta I'll add her, just that I can see having two fatties that rely on reanimation that heavily could make for some awkward draws (though I guess grave titan is pretty awkward too).
You're right on tar pit which is saddening, the second blue hasn't been reliable.
I don't really know what I'm doing with my sideboard, I added batterskull because I already wanted to try running ruins+EE in the side so I figured I may as well run it as well. The landbase causes so much lifeloss that a grindy lifelinker seemed like a good idea but I see what you mean, unless equipped to something else, a 4/4 isn't impressive vs much of the field.
As long as I've played the deck there was usually a big grindy dude in the side like a thragtusk or batterkull, is this less necessary now too?
I only had to cast collective brutality a few times to realise 1 copy wasn't enough, I was planning to replace the timely's with them.
Only running day of judgement as the 3rd distinct unconditional boardwipe so I can gifts up damnation+day+wrath and be guaranteed to get one. Replacing with another damnation wouldn't allow that, and if I was going to do that I may as well just replace the wrath of god too.
Bontu's is interesting though, have you had any luck with it?
Dusting off my modern decks after almost a year's hiatus and decided to work on my gifts deck for my first event.
Pretty unfamiliar with the new meta still, and haven't tested a lot of the new choice cards like flayer and brutality yet.
Opinions and criticisms on my prototype list would be greatly appreciated, seems like some pretty solid discussion has been going on here. I'm especially unsure on the sideboard and landbase.
Was very tempted to try the new esper Goryo list, seems really strong. I'm a sucker for loam though...
Here's what I'm considering submitting for a coming local league:
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
4x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (11)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Path to Exile
Sorcery (12)
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Life from the Loam
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Raven's Crime
1x Thoughtseize
1x Unburial Rites
1x Breeding Pool
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple Garden
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
3x Windswept Heath
1x Academy Ruins
1x Batterskull
1x Celestial Purge
1x Damnation
1x Darkblast
1x Day of Judgment
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Negate
2x Stony Silence
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Wrath of God
AV unban is exciting, it is a slow card though, so I'm trying not to get my hopes unrealistically high, but it is still good news.
Bad news for me is that I didn't expect any unbans alongside the eldrazi bans, so I thought I had at least another 3 months to pick up my copies... ugh.
Cuts are tricky of course, I think I'll try cutting my last snapcaster, 1 of my 3 mistbinds, and I'll see if I can justify dropping back to 25 lands. Do I still need MB ghost quarters now that eye is gone?
If AV somehow made storm great I would be very happy, that is a great mu for us
You don't think AV could benefit scion-style tempo builds more than slower control builds? I don't think AV is good enough to change the fact that proactive>reactive when it comes to modern, and landing BBs and scions backed up by improved tempo and card advantage seems like where I'd want to be with AV.
That said, I think people are putting way too much stock in Forsythe's tweet. I think AV is a potential unban, and has been for some time, but people seem to be convinced AV is coming off based on very little info.
I am sceptical of both, but Osman seems to consistently run Beleren which I think is enough reason to test it, and I want to like Ashiok, so people here who run it have given me (likely false) hope.
Jace AoT just seems too slow to bother, I am already clogged at 4cmc. Being able to immediately fact or fiction seems strong, but I think my 4cmc spells are strong enough, I need more early game.
As others have said, Liliana isn't great. Usually she is just 3cmc sorcery speed creature removal, which is often fine with the bonus potentially of running away with the game, but very often she is awkward or bad. As a draw-go deck with effectively no graveyard interaction, her +1 is usually a liability.
Even without a critical mass of flashback targets to back him up I can see him being reasonable if he is able to flip reliably (that seems a big if), as he can be quite sticky when he does, but I'm not sure he adds much to the deck that we're really looking for.
I'd love to be proven wrong though, it wouldn't be the first time with this card. Have you had a chance to play much with it?
I've played around with a singleton murderous cut, and sometimes it was amazing, but most of the time I think it is worse than the alternatives. I run a 1-of snapcaster mage in the tasigur slot, and it can be a little awkward, but I like it a lot more than the banana king.
I agree that you shouldn't compare spell pierce to spell snare.
Also, those who've had experience with SoLaS, how much value do you get off the return from gy to hand trigger? Do you usually have the targets to make use of it?
I suppose that's why it's still in the sideboard, but how great have people been finding the mainboard disfigures? It seems like they'd be more awkward in a lot of matchups than discard. That said, I do find myself siding them in a lot.
Sigh, disfigure is very good at the moment, I just wish it wasn't such a bad card. Compared to the likes of thoughtseize, bolt, and path, it really is garbage, wish it said "and you gain 2 life" on the end.
Still not sure a splash is where we want to be, but it seems more reasonable than colonnade for the esper builds.
Looks good, I haven't played with shambling shell for a long time, I'm interested in how good it is for you. I'm currently testing rotting rats as a singleton, but I can see shambling shell potentially being better in that role.
As for your complaints with your instants, that is definitely a concern. I would recommend cutting them if it means more dredgers and anglers, 4 gurmags is very good, and I think more dredge is better than less.
Sideboard is very similar to mine, so looks good to me :D, but as always that depends on what you play against.
Only cards there I don't have in my 75 are slaughter games and rakdos charm. I've seen people run slaughter games before, but I don't really get it, it seems too slow to be useful. Turn 4 is already late vs a lot of relevant combo decks, and hitting 4 consecutive land drops off of 20 lands isn't always easy. Rakdos charm can be very versatile, but often is just irrelevant or mediocre. With ancient grudge available its artifact destruction mode is a little less necessary, so its usefulness depends on how much use you get out of the other niche modes. Might be worth including for versatility since you don't know what you'll be playing against, but I'm not a big fan.
As for suggestions, firespout has been impressing me recently, and spellskite is something to consider running in any modern sideboard.
Your complaints regarding murderous cut and kcommand have me wondering why so much disruption has been seeing play in mainboards. I've only come back to this deck recently so I'm a little out of touch, but I really don't like much mainboard interaction. I want to be dredging as often as possible, and if I'm not drawing regularly these spells are likely not getting to my hand. Not only that, but they are total trash in the GY. Most of my interaction is in the sideboard for this reason, i don't want to gum up my gameplan unless I feel I have to. I have lighning axes and darkblasts mainboard because they synergise with my gameplan, but I feel like a bunch of abrupt decays and murderous cuts would slow me down, and ultimately hurt more than help me.
I'm genuinely curious what is causing people to feel all this removal is necessary, what are primary targets for the likes of abrupt decay and murderous cut? Are they needed to clear away blockers? Specific threats? Or are you just trying to play a more grindy midrange game?