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  • posted a message on [Primer]Lands
    Quote from chaosjace »
    I think I know the answer but I will ask anyway
    Could RG lands benefit from divining top at all?

    It's fine, but not exactly where you want to be at. RG Lands doesn't want to spend its mana durdling, and without the Counterbalance combo and/or miracle cards it's probably better to run Sylvan Library if you want this kind of effect. You don't have to sink your mana into it, and the ability to draw extra cards is good in a lot of matchups. Getting your Marit Lage plowed lets you pull so far ahead on cards with Library in play.
    Top can save your Loam from effects targeting your grave, but that's something the deck is already able to do, and I think Library offers a lot more upside because it's just insane against slower decks.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on What is the Best "Cheating in the Best Creatures" deck?
    Reanimator definitely has the most raw power. It just has to fight through another type of hate cards.
    If you're meta is short on graveyard hate, or combo heavy than Reanimator is a fantastic choice (Reanimator is slightly faster than Sneak and Show, and basically as fast as Storm but it still gets to play with discard and countermagic so it has a noticeable edge in any combo matchup). In an unknown or large open meta the better choice is probably Sneak and Show because it has less hate to fight through.
    Personally I wouldn't really play Omnitell. It's always felt too clunky to me, especially when most of its win conditions are three card combos.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from Dice_Bag »
    I do not feel removing Filtering is best for the format. It is a defining element of Legacy. It is part of the drive to play it. While I do not like how strongly Blue penetrates the format, I do feel like the removal of filter would be to Legacy's detriment.

    I think most Legacy players know the solution by now. Rather than banning the best cantrips ala Modern we just need to see WotC push more cards in other colors that can add consistency. More cards like Life from the Loam, Green Sun's Zenith, and Faithless Looting are exactly what we need. They can't be slotted into any deck in their colors (this is a good thing), but if your deck can support them they are incredibly powerful and allow your deck to do what it wants to do more often. What we have is a good start, but WotC definitely needs to keep giving us these kinds of tools every so often (it would also help if they stopped printing insanely strong cards in blue). Not only do they help non-blue colors compete with Blue, but they also promote unique strategies because they have to be built around. The only risk is that you print something that is too strong in Modern (Standard's small cardpool makes the chances of these types of cards being problematic very small, just look at Treasure Cruise for example), but WotC's ability to release cards directly into the Legacy/Vintage cardpool allows them to get around that problem.

    Legacy should have very consistent decks. We're playing this format because we want to do extremely powerful things, and I think the fact that our decks get to be built in such a way that they get to do it almost every game is a big selling point of Legacy.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from DunstilBrejik »
    Quote from LandBoySteve »
    Quote from DunstilBrejik »
    Quote from Infallible »
    Time investment means what in a format where a good portion of the meta plays Top? Put that aside. You're talking about a card that says 1R: Stack your deck of creatures as you choose if they're goblins. What world are we living in where this is okay? You want to deal with ringleader every two cards? Bc this is how you get ringleader every two cards. idc about food chain, honestly. I'm more worried about perfect draws.

    Perfect draws, so long as those draws are goblins. This isn't going to be a terribly over-powered deck. Considering it requires a spell resolving and then multiple turns to actually come to fruition. We live in a meta where we're fine with a single two card combo resolving and ending the game.


    Exactly. I don't see how this is any worse than Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show And Tell, Omniscience, Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, on turn 1 and game. Or, land, dark rit, dark rit, AN turn 1, game. If anything, Recruiter is a longer combo win (if you can even call it that) than any combo deck in the format except maybe for High Tide and Solidarity. Maybe Ascendancy.

    I honestly don't see the card being a problem or any better than what we currently have and maybe we might just get another deck out of it.

    It's also a combo deck that runs along a conventional axis, and is interacted with through creatures, removal, and counter spells.

    The two angles of attack that Food Chain Goblins has access to require different kinds of interaction, and that's what makes the style of deck viable. Abrupt Decay is by far the best card against Food Chain Goblins because it's basically the only thing that interacts with both plans the deck has. Opposing creatures and non-Decay removal spells don't do anything if you stick a Food Chain. Discard and countermagic only do anything to the Food Chain plan and are pretty awful against the rest of the deck.

    This is exactly what makes Elves tough to interact with. It requires you drawing the right interaction that matches up with what your opponent draws. Having countermagic to stop Glimpse/GSZ/Natural Order won't do much if your opponent is grinding you out with Symbiotes and Visionaries. Having Punishing Fire is great, but it's not doing anything if they just drop Progenitus.

    The fact that these decks typically can't win before turn 3 keeps them in check though. The opponent generally has a few turns to try to find the appropriate responses.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Honestly, Stacking a Recruiter will take about as much time as Doomsday for your typical "no roadblocks presented" pile. Recruiter involves more cards, but in reality this will add seconds at best for a practiced pilot. In reality, you aren't actually going to stack ALL of your goblins. It's really going to be like ~16 tops and often less, and they will be in a memorized, optimal order. In situations where you have Food Chain for the combo win, you really don't need many goblins to win. And in situations where you're just going for the grind game with Ringleaders you're not going to really stack much because you'll want to break a fetch or playing a Matron to shuffle anyways as the boardstate changes. In situations where making your stack is "complicated" Doomsday will take WAY more time than Recruiter to resolve. Doomsday allows you to get ANY card, but you have to do so while still having the resources to win through Storm (or maybe Lab Maniac if that's your thing). Whether or not to add in a Sharpshooter or Tarfire is as hard as Recruiter gets. Doomsday often involves situations where you have to answer multiple cards with limited mana, storm count, etc. You'll frequently just be winning the game on the spot after resolving Recruiter (similar to Doomsday though certainly not as often) so the time Recruiter takes is often inconsequential. Even when Recruiter doesn't win right then and there, is he really taking more time having an active Top over several turns? I doubt it.

    I think Food Chain Goblins is probably about as good as Elves, but it has a different matchup spread for sure. For example, Food Chain Goblins probably crushes Miracles; basing this on Goblins already good matchup against Miracles only being amplified with the addition of Recruiter (I could easily see just siding out Food Chain because Miracles has better tools to interact with that plan, but they can't beat Cavern of Souls + saving a Ringleader/Matron/Recruiter for post-Terminus). I could see it coming off eventually. If they were willing to unban WGD I think there's a very real possibility they unban Recruiter some day. But Dice_Bag is right, it's probably not going to happen until they want to unban it while banning something else. And even then, I think it's more likely we get something like Mind Twist or Earthcraft before we get Recruiter. Any of those three essentially buff a currently weak archetype. Black based Sol Land decks, Tezzerator being the primary example, would like Mind Twist and aside from that it might show up in some sideboards for slower matchups. Earthcraft can slot into Enchantress to give it a compact win condition that compliments the deck's core while not being totally dead when not winning the game. It's basically Dark Depths + Thespian Stage for Enchantress, though whether it's good enough to make Enchantress as strong as Lands currently is is certainly debatable. That said, it's likely at least better than what Enchantress currently uses (clunky enchantments, convoluted multi-piece combos that draw your deck, or RIP Helm). I don't agree with people that say this would buff Elves because they already have the Earthcraft effect with Heritage Druid and Birchlore Ranger, both of which have more synergy with the deck. Earthcraft doesn't trigger Glimpse, can't be found with GSZ, doesn't power Gaea's Cradle, can't be sac'd to Natural Order, and can't be buffed by Craterhoof.

    Basically, none of these really break the format, they just give weak decks new angles to attack from that could potentially make them relevant again (I for one welcome the reintroduction of Lands to the meta and would love to see other classics of the format find a solid place again). Of them, Recruiter might be the most dangerous but that's really not saying much. I used to be pretty afraid of Recruiter, but I've come to see it as surprisingly tame by modern Legacy standards. It's basically a different take on Elves. The combo plan isn't as robust and the pieces aren't as interchangeable, but in exchange the redzone plan is much better.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from LandBoySteve »
    Quote from Mad Mat »
    I feel pretty confident that Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind's Desire and Mind Twist could come off without too much of an impact.

    Goblin Recruiter would make goblins a tier 1 deck again and I think a lot of the fair decks would have a hard time adapting to it without including lots of goblin hate. A resolved recruiter (which is really not that hard) and a stable manabase ensures all your draws are awesome for the rest of the game. That's a pretty massive advantage, even without the Food Chain combo.

    Yawgmoth's Bargain is a much better Ad Nauseam. The life cost is comparable, as the average mana cost in a storm deck is close to 1 (and fetchlands make it go up). Bargain costs 1 mana more, but allows you much more flexibility in comboing out. It's not that hard to resolve the bargain and set up a perfect combo through all sorts of hate with the aid of cantrips, top and fetches. It works a bit like Griselbrand in Tin Fins, but the odds of fizzling are much lower once the effect is active and you don't need to use the graveyard or find the appropriate enabling reanimation spell to get it to work (just mana). It is also generally harder for a typical legacy deck to deal with an enchantment of CMC6 than a big legendary creature. Finally, you can pack 4 bargains without any cost to your deck unlike ad nauseam, reducing the importance of tutors for storm to work. As storm is already a top tier deck at the moment, I could easily see bargain pushing it over the top. Show and Tell decks could also quite easily pack a few bargains, as they're more resistant to removal than Griselbrand and less likely to fizzle in their drawpower.


    One thing to keep in mind. Reducing the number of tutors, or even eliminating Infernal Tutor in order to pack 4 Bargains, you're essentially only gaining one card slot, assuming you're eliminating Ad Nauseam. You're not really getting that much more gas for your deck. I'm not 100% sure that Bargain would push storm over the top.

    But it's probably a moot point. I doubt WotC is going to take a chance by taking it off the list.

    There's absolutely no way you're cutting Infernal Tutor. You want to be pushing the power of LED in your deck as much as possible, you want it to be Black Lotus basically 100% of the time. Any theoretical Bargain Storm list should be starting with full Bargains, full Infernals, and some number of Past in Flames to break LED every time you have it. That's an extreme threat density that no current Storm build can match because of Ad Nauseam's limitations. You can actually probably just cut some of the cantrips to make room for the Bargains because the increased threat count will put less stress on the cantrip engine (and less losing games to casting six cantrips and not hitting a threat). Running more threats also means you can run Chrome Mox easily because drawing multiple threats] can be otherwise clunky but now just easily accelerates you.
    Oh, and of course you can run multiple copies of Tendrils to cast two or more to win. Bargain allowing you to continue to draw cards post Tendrils is bonkers good. It allows you to win with less resources, and more reliably combo out against decks pressuring your life total, and just power through clumps of dead cards when drawing with Bargain.

    Bargain Storm is absolutely not something you want in the format. It's a monster. It's insanely consistent. I've tested out a lot of different builds for fun (the one I had the most success with was using Grim Monolith and City of Traitors to help facilitate Bargain's 6cmc price tag), and in almost every build I tried it had a frighteningly high consistency at being able to win with just the resources in its opening hand. Hands frequently had the mana and threat needed to win, so cantrips could more frequently be used to setup protection. That's what really stuck out to me and affirmed to me my initial thoughts about Bargain Storm going into the fun experiment. Bargain is VERY close to being as dangerous as Necropotence IMO. The only reason Necropotence is stronger is because it comes down at half the cost.
    Show and Tell and Bargain is not where you want to be. I don't think Rector is either, though I didn't try it out. Rector seems like it's too slow and easily disrupted being a creature. Bargain is just worse than Griselbrand and Emrakul if you want to use Show and Tell.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from Soldier »
    Quote from LandBoySteve »


    I gave up on Goblins a long time ago.


    I'd heard that Mental Misstep killed Goblins but I know it was Bolt that killed Goblins. You cannot make a deck that hinges on a 1/1 creature and burn is a playable. Same is true with Goblin Welder (this is why we seldom see Goblin Welder).

    Goblins was only seen playable when burn options were Shock, seal of fire and Mogg Fanatic, and players were afraid to play ball lightning because it was a drain target.

    It's been said before in response to this post, but Goblins was once the best deck in Legacy. And even when creature powercreep started to catch up Goblins was among the top decks for quite a while. IMO, what really pushed Goblins out was printings like Stoneforge (Batterskull is bad but beatable, the real problem is that Stoneforge gives you incredibly consistent access to Jitte which is backbreaking), Snapcaster Mage (giving you another four copies of your primary removal spell), and TNN blanking anything that isn't a Piledriver. That's a short list of the worst cards for goblins, but other things like Pyromancer (and perhaps Mentor now?) certainly didn't help.

    Mental Misstep was actually fantastic for Goblins. In modern Legacy Goblins was by far at its best during the Mental Misstep era. It gave you a tool against combo decks (though more importantly, Mental Misstep made a lot of combo decks fringe) and it gave you a way to protect your guys from removal. Opposing Mental Missteps weren't a big deal because you just ran your own. Banning Mental Misstep basically made Goblins a fringe deck again. Avacyn Restored brought us Terminus and with it Miracles, and that was another pretty good time for Goblins though short lived. RtR wasn't kind to Goblins thanks to DRS being a 1/2, and Abrupt Decay hitting Vial. That was a pretty big one-two punch. Either of them on their own would have been bad but bearable, but both together... ouch.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Fate Reforged and Legacy
    I think it will still be playable, but the difference in two and three mana between the Mentor and Pyromancer feels like its further emphasized without Cruise in the format. I think Mentor is still playable in white Delver decks as a 1-2 of, in the same vein as the other three drops like Clique, Geist, and TNN. I think Mentor will fill a similar role as Geist - a highly aggressive three drop as opposed to the more mid-range TNN and disruption oriented Clique. Geist's hexproof is nice when compared to Mentor, but Mentor is quite resilient in the way that Pyromancer is. It's very easy to orchestrate a turn in which you are dropping Mentor + Probe, with FoW/Daze backup. The tokens being more or less Swiftspears make them quite threatening even if they can remove the Mentor, so I actually like Mentor quite a bit more than Geist. Geist is too easily stopped by almost any opposing creature chumping which limits his effectiveness to combo matchups (where Clique is probably better because of the disruption) and against a deck like Miracles that can't readily block him (and Clique is still probably better). Mentor having the ability to grow to be a formidable threat himself is very nice.

    I really liked the Pyromancer/Stoneforge lists that eschewed Delver, and Mentor would have been a natural fit there and would have better performed in this deck than in Delver lists, but that was very much a Treasure Cruise deck even moreso than the Delver decks that ran Cruise. So that said, I'm less sure that this deck will still be able to function similarly. This deck is likely more fit to switch to running some number of Digs than Delver decks are, but it's still not going to be able to match that raw power of 4 Cruise.

    At least I can still be pretty certain of Mentors place in Vintage. The restriction of Cruise isn't as big when they still have unrestricted Gush not to mention DTT is still incredibly powerful in Vintage and can likely take up some of the slack from Cruise's restriction. But the big thing is definitely Mentor + Moxen (and other fast artifact mana) is absolutely bonkers. It even makes loading up on multiple Hurkyl's legit, which really helps shore up Gush's Workshop issues on top of enabling insane Mentor plays by bouncing your artifact mana. If you can untap with a Mentor, or Time Walk you can essentially Storm out with a few tokens and Prowess boosts.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Cards like Liliana, Hymn, Dark Confidant, Jace, and plenty of other cards that build towards incremental card advantage all get better without Cruise in the format.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Deck] Goblins
    Quote from hotlikedimes »
    Any thoughts on running a mono red list that plays Goblin King and Goblin Chieftan and Blood Moon? A lot of decks are pretty greedy with their mana bases, playing lots of non-basics, to work their tri-color madness. It hurts the effectiveness of wasteland and rishadan port. It would be more of an aggro deck, but I think it could play out pretty interestingly.

    Ironically the best goblin deck in the format is very likely Moggcatcher Stompy, which is the evolution of classic Dragon Stompy decks. I'm wont to think that Moggcatcher Stompy is just a better version of what this would-be deck is trying to do.

    As an aside, if you want to bash face with the little green men but want something potentially more competitive than Vial goblins I would recommend Moggcatcher Stompy as another absolutely fun deck to play. Goblin Rabblemaster is the real deal when you're backing it up with prison elements, especially when Chalice @ 1 shuts off most removal that would otherwise take out Rabblemaster. And when the board state doesn't favor Rabblemaster you can just drop Siege-Gang Commanders. Between Cavern of Souls and Moggcatcher himself you still get the uncounterable-goodness that we've grown accustomed to. Blood Moon + Goblin Rabblemaster + Goblin King is as delicious as it sounds.

    Quote from SpecialK47150 »
    Thinking I'm going to build a mono red version of this due to budget reasons, and then add to it as money allows. I have no problem putting $1000 - $1500 into the deck over time, just can't afford to do that now. Wife and I are remodeling our current home and saving for a down payment to purchase a second.

    Anyhow, what would the "optimal" mono red list be? I'll add color splashes and fetches later on.


    And yes, I know the deck isn't well positioned currently. It's a deck that looks like loads of fun to play though, has great flavor, and will be playable for years if the past tells us anything.

    You'll first need to figure out if you want to go the traditional route or the spicy route of Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator. For straight mono-red I actually like Instigator lists more personally, as he makes up for some of the lost power you get when you don't have splash colors. Without splash colors for sideboard options you leave yourself especially open to combo decks, so Instigator gives you more potential to brute force your way through them by having Lackeys 5-8.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Deck] Goblins
    Goblin Guide is an extremely aggressive creature that fits well into Burn (and less competitive RDW brews), but that's not what Goblins has ever needed. Goblins is a midrange deck with the potential to explode onto the field with an unanswered Lackey. However, Lackey has become increasingly unreliable over the years, so Goblins has had to rely less on aggression and more on its ability to play the mid-late game. Goblin Guide's drawback is also very real when you're trying to use Wasteland and Rishadan Port to stump the opponent's development.

    If you're looking for a fun deck, look no further. I still think Goblins is some of the most fun I can have playing Legacy. Just know that the deck isn't the most competitive anymore. Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull, Snapcaster Mage, Delver, True-Name, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, etc. are all relatively recent printings that caused Goblins to take a hit. Goblins used to do very well against fair blue decks, go about even with non-blue fair decks, and lose to combo. Of the current fair blue decks, you only beat Miracles. The rest are about even, but there are still lots of things that will give you trouble like Stoneforge into TNN. There are also non-blue fair decks like Jund that can be pretty bad. Lands' surge back into viability is also a problem for Goblins as it's just very hard to interact with their strategy.
    Creature powercreep is probably the biggest culprit here. Goblins plays a lot of underpowered creatures that are good together, and this worked when the best creature your opponent could play was Goyf (which was very easy to manage by just blocking it and drawing more cards than your opponent with Matron and Ringleader).
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from DunstilBrejik »
    Quote from Soldier »
    The only time I saw Necro was busted in extended. TRIX.

    As for being banned in legacy... well, necro was one of those cards that were banned from the old type 1.5 rules. And anything that draws you 7 or more cards is insane in type 1. 1.5 dont have power 9 and speed.

    It doesn't matter that we don't have the power 9 and speed, it's insane coming down on any turn, not just T1. Do you really think it's so insane that a storm deck gets to 3 black mana in the first few turns?
    As for Ad Nauseam being run over this, that's incredibly silly. Necro is cheaper, both in mana and life cost, can be one in bursts, and in every way better.

    You can hardly say that it's in every way better. Ad Nauseam has a pretty good chance of winning the turn it's played in ANT, and a very good chance in TES. You have to untap to win when you use Necro which is a real drawback. That said, Necro being only three mana on top imposing no constraints on deckbuilding like Ad Nauseam makes it significantly stronger. The times you'll loose because you have to wait a turn to combo out are easily offset by the far greater amount of times Necro will allow you to win with next to zero resources. You can get completely shut down early and forced into topdeck mode, rip Necro, and win the game in short order. I'm sure Vintage Storm players will be happy to tell you about the games they mulled to three and got land, Ritual, Necro and won without breaking a sweat.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Fate Reforged and Legacy
    Monastary Mentor seems too powerful to not see play. I think the jump up to three mana is enough that it's likely going to be played in smaller numbers than Pyromancer, but I think the Delver-less Pyromancer decks want Pyromancer enough that they are willing to run a slower, but more powerful version as additional copies.
    I think this can be true in Vintage as well even. The fact that it triggers off of artifacts is a nice plus in Vintage.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from Soldier »
    Quote from Teia Rabishu »
    Quote from Soldier »
    First ... What ever was said about mental misstep could apply to black vise. Why would nobody play this card? It cost 1 mana and it deals damage each turn. All you need to do is sinkhole a land, waste another land, play something that adds to the spell cost, you could drop multiples in play on the first turn.


    You're talking about a relatively narrow section of decks. There's no doubt it could be 4 or 5 damage for 1 mana in some cases, but it's a hell of a lot worse on the draw and is also dead useless against a lot of decks, making a worse topdeck than a Lava Spike in many situations. It can be explosive, but it's really not any more dangerous than numerous unbanned cards in the same decks. It'd be powerful, but probably only sideboard material. It certainly wouldn't live up to its old nickname of Three Free Bolts given how many decks can either counter it or empty their hand fast enough that it doesn't matter. Or just combo-kill you through it.


    How is this safe? turn 1 (3 damage), turn 2 (2 damage), turn 3 (1 damage) [That's one card.]

    lets try it with spells. Turn 1 (black vise - 3 damage). Turn 2 (Goblin guide attack/opponent draws land. play chain - +5 damage, +3 damage [black vise]... [11 damage total], turn 3 attack with goblin guide, bolt and fireblast!

    Do you really think that would be healthy for legacy?

    Burn is already capable of winning on turn 3. Numerous other decks are capable of winning turns 1-3.
    This is nothing new to Legacy at all.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Deck] Goblins
    To be totally honest, I genuinely don't see a good reason to play Goblins anymore outside of having a strong Miracles matchup.
    Goblins traditionally had strong blue matchups because of how strong its lategame has always been relative to other fair decks. Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron are good, but it's just so much easier to just play Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. You end up with much less restrictions on your deck, and you get to play a bunch of individually really strong cards instead of a lot of weaker but synergistic cards and there is no downside to playing all the best cards. Basically, other decks now have access to the same kind of power that Goblins has always had, but they don't have to make any sacrifices in deck design to achieve it. Delver and Stoneblade matchups that were once favorable are now even, if not a slight advantage for the opposing side. Combo is still as bad as ever. Not to mention there are other weak matchups that pop up more now than before, like Lands.
    That's not to say that you can't get a lucky run and still find some success with Goblins, but you are putting yourself at such a huge disadvantage for doing it.
    Posted in: Midrange
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