Cipher hit the nail on the head. The PLA/Perilous Vault versions of the deck are way too slow to deal with jeskai burn. The only way I've been able to win the matchup game 1 is with lucky bile blight draws and postboard I bring in about 9-10 cards (4 negate, 2 proggy sphinx, 3-4 murk lurkers) and sometimes it's still not enough. If you can get over the initial hump though with timely removal/countermagic, then PLA is truly untouchable in the matchup save for jeskai charm tucks. The problem is that it's so hard getting to that point.
Lowering the curve by adding cards like Nullify also help.
I strongly disagree with this. Jeskai shouldn't be classified as burn for one thing, as there are different versions of the deck. If they're running versions with Ascendancy or creatures like Brimaz, then Perilous Vault is fine, but I'll cut two. Second, you're not gonna do better than 50 percent against Jeskai with any version. Any deck can nut draw.
You want to resolve a Murk Lurker, but you're forgetting about Pharika's Cure.
Ok. After a long break I'm back on this deck. I like the idea of Thought Scours and Treasure Cruise so I'm trying 4x each over Thoughtseize and Thirst for Knowledge just to test out. A few thoughts on pKenetic's last posted list; I like Underground River over Sunken Ruins. You always want the ability to cast Inquisition/Thoughtseize/Serum Visions on turn 1. You also want 4x Ghost Quarter which hurts the chances of turning on Ruins. 3 Damnation in the board is way too many when you are only running 20 land. I actually don't like Damnation at all because it was a turn too slow and Drown in Sorrow is usually just as good. I'm going to be playing in a bunch of dailies this week and I'll post my results soon.
Turn three dissolve I'm sure would require 19. I'm too lazy to do the math, but I'm sure 17 blue is not higher than 80 percent by turn three. Either way I don't see Radiant Fountain being that crucial. I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with a certain number, but turn three dissolve is huge on the play.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure the pros have figured 19 sources of blue and black is ideal. Three Radiant Fountains would add strain. Plus, you're running nine tapped lands. In match ups you need the life gain, Jorubai and Pharika's cures should be good enough. Otherwise, you can reliably bounce the fountain or even a Dismal Backwater with PLA in a pinch.
Jeskai Combo is an excellent match up for versions that run Vault. Once you stick it, they have to waste a Retraction Helix to remove it. Another reason to run Thoughtseize, as I've felt completely safe when playing against it.
Game 1 - Easy to Answer all his dudes, apparently was also running Savage Knuckleblade and Polukranos, World Eater, but I never saw them the whole round. Stick a PLA at like 8 lands and kept the board clear with spot removal.
Game 2 - He boards in Negates to back up his own Dissolves and gets in a ton of damage in a few turns by flooding the stack with scrying and Ranger's Guile. I gain some life off lands and refill my hand, and he sticks a Prognostic Sphinx that I can't manage to tap down. BUddy him up with a Flamespeaker Adept, and I'm toast.
Game 3 - I fix some board options(I took out Disdainful Stroke, since I saw NO spells over 3 cmc) and optimize the win. I play around his guiles, pull his counterspells, stick PLA and hit a couple DTT, and he scoops the round
Round 2 BW Warriors 2 - 0
Game 1 - I see a ton of the deck this game. Mardu Hateblade, Bloodsoaked Champion, Chief of the Edge, Chief of the Scale, Oreskos Swiftclaw. I 2-for-1 with Bile Blight twice to get rid of a pair of Champions and a pair of Hateblades, then start 1-for-1 with Downfall and Dissolve to keep the board clear. I dissolve a turn 5 Athreos, God of Passage, see nothing for 2 turns as he's topdecking lands and DTT a couple times to a PLA and close it up in about 2 turns.
Game 2 - I board out 2 Stroke, 3 Vault, 3 Thoughtseize, and bring in 4 Drown in Sorrow and 4 Murk Lurker. I take a couple Damage with a Drown in hand so he thinks I don't have an immediate answer, he over commits and I punish him for it, and Scry another Drown, lol. Somewhere around Turn 7 or 8(I had 7 lands), I let him resolve an Athreos, since my life is at like 17 after 3 Backwater, and flash in PLA. He apparently boarded in some removal in the for of Utter End and Banishing Light. He learns quickly that he's not going to deal with PLA any better than 1-for-2. After dodging a Banlight by bouncing my 3 Backwaters, I get back enough to cast him again gaining 3 more life in the process, and I hold a Dissolve while I spot remove his threats and pay a total of 9 life to keep dudes in the yard. The last thing I want him to do is refill my hand with 6 lands and a PLA, or worse.....just 6 lands. It works, and I dissolve an Utter End he assumed was going to put the Leviathan back in my hand, and then cast Jace's Ingenuity to refill with something a bit better. 2 turns later he's at 2 life with no more answers, and I move on to the final round.
Round 3 - RUG Midrange
We're the only 2 with 6 points, so we intentional draw for already equal Prizes. (a Cute little SCG foil 5/5 Trample Wurm token and a collectable pin to match). We play anyway for fun.
I'm glad we drew, because my deck decided to crap out on me.
Game 1 - I don't ever remember what happened here. I hit 3 lands and killed one creature. Bile Blight did nothing in this matchup. Caryatids, Coursers, Knuckleblades, Stormbreaths, Xenagos(planeswalker), Kiora, and Polukranos beat me in the face while I did nothing.
Game 2 - I board in a 3rd Stroke, the Impersonator(hoping to try and copy Kiora, then Downfall the real one. *shrug* its for fun at this point), and 3 Negate. I DTT, I Ingenuity, I Downfall, I Dissolve. I don't see a single Spouts or Vault. He plays way too many threats to 1 for 1 everything and I get pounded by a Courser and 2 Knuckleblades.
Cards that Shined: Pearl Lake Ancient, first and foremost - I'm not going to now, and doubt I will ever, say it is strictly better than Prognostic Sphinx. He is, in almost every situation, Ætherlings predecessor. Can't be Countered and Flash make up for the lack of "U: Until end of turn, ~ can't be blocked." 7 mana is no problem running 27 lands, 4 DTT and tons of premium removal. Every time I cast PLA, keeping the board clear was not a problem at all.
Bile Blight - This thing is such a great removal spell. I killed 2 creatures almost every time I cast it. It's 2 cmc and instant speed. Just phenomenal.
Dig Through Time - Getting 7 cards down for 2 - 4 mana, and grabbing the 2 you need is amazing. Compared to a Sphinx's Revelation last season, 2 cards and 2 life costed 5 mana and could net you 2 lands. Getting 7 costed 10 and usually grabbed 3 - 4 lands as well. The ability to choose is amazing.
L.V.P.: Silence the Believers - I'm running this in place of a 4th Downfall......until I have a 4th Downfall. Everysingle time I had it in hand, I wanted it to cost less. I wanted a Murderous Cut, Downfall, or Blight. As soon as I get the 4th Downfall, this card is out. The strive costs too much to do any type of 2-for-1, and 4 cmc is clunky enough as it is. I didn't see a single creature all night, and haven't on Trice, that couldn't be taken care of by Cut or Downfall. It's only good in a meta that have Ashcloud Phoenix or things that get bestowed. I don't have any of that here.
Other things: Thoughtseize - I didn't resolve a single one. Temur Charm can be a Mana Leak. Dissolve says goodbye. If you don't have it in your opening hand with a swamp, you probably don't need it. Run a full 4 or don't bother. It can be outstanding to mess up their curve enough to get that third land and Coutner/kill things while keeping early threats off the board. I can see why people have been taking to runninf Despise in place or in addition.
Divination/Font of Fortunes - I'm not running them, and don't see the need. Having a 2 - 3 cmc answer instead is just better. Ingenuity and DTT are going to refill an empty hand very efficiently. A Cantrip +1 isn't going to do enough to take up draw spell slots. I never once needed a cheaper draw option. Ever.
That's all I've got. Had a really good showing. The deck can handle almost everything in the meta on Game 1, and I never went to tie in a round. Closest I got was the 5 minute mark, and all 3 rounds of the night took a grand total of 2 hours and 30 minues. I like where we are. I just really want a Doom Blade or Devour Flesh option to lower cmc of removal and deal with resolved Sagu Maulers. Is a 1-of Dead Drop an option at this point? We may not get another one.
Nice report. This shell of U/B control will always be viable. You need four Perilous Vault though. It's all about taking optimal lines and siding correctly. I would continue to run this and learn how to adjust it for the meta. A cheap instant cantrip or two would really put this deck over the top.
Silence the Believers seems like it's good, but it's costly and there aren't enough match ups to justify running it, especially if you're running Vaults.
I agree with your take on Divination and Font of fortunes. We definitely want to be reactive, unless we're playing aggro. It is better to draw run more answers as the deck has enough scry, redundancy and card draw to get what you need.
Not resolving a single thoughtseize has to be an anomaly. It's rarely dead in this deck. The information is very valuable at least, you can pump your Pearl Lake Ancient with it...Discard is very powerful and the only thing you can do on turns one and two.
Players seem to lose focus of the deck which is control, and that involves counters and destruction, the two things blue and black specialize, and inevitability. I run the stock Perilous Vault list with minor changes here and there. This is the superior strategy for a few reasons, namely for being purely reactive with answers to everything in the format, a powerful sweeper, and great options for finishers in Pearl Lake Ancient and Empty the Pits which provides inevitability. With such a solid focus you have the flexibility to use tech more effectively. Players who find fault with this pure control version may not be running it correctly, prefer a different style, or are not taking variance into account. With answers to everything, you should have game against every deck. Some match ups are close to auto losses in game one, but a solid sideboard should give you much better odds. Perilous Vault is the card that completes the deck, and in most match ups it provides a nice bridge to Pearl Lake Ancient. Any player that knows how to use the Vault would auto include four.
Playing the deck correctly depends on what build you choose, but the goal remains the same. The Turtenwald list focused on reactive removal with four Bile Blight, Heroe's Downfall, and two Murderous Cut in anticipation of Green and mid range decks, but I've been running a more discard heavy build because I want to pick off early threats, know what I have to play around, and buy myself time to set my mana up properly and use my counters and removal. They also help me buy time to set up Vault, which is my immediate goal. There are hardly any main deck answers to it. Once it's cast and I untap, it keeps the opponent from playing threats, buying me even more time to draw into counters and removal and eventually Ancient. Playing discard makes this much more feasible, which is why I run six total, five main deck. If they have a clock and my Vault is down, most of the time I take a few attacks until I can find a counter spell or removal and then I pop it. By that time I will have most likely drawn into another. I might go as low as two life if I know I can control the game after I exile the board, my opponent can't deal the last few point of damage, or if I can gain the life back, but knowing when to do it is important. I want to emphasize that Perilous Vault is a great complement and very crucial to the overall control strategy, but it has to be used correctly.
A spicy one of in my side board that acts as a pseudo finisher is Fated Return. It's great against creature decks, re-animator decks, or if you want to have an indestructible Pearl Lake Ancient to hold things down. It's put in quite a bit of work for me and I'm still learning how to use it.
Hello. I can't reply to a specific thread. For me, the the U/B pure control thread in the standard proven section doesn't give the options to quote, reply, or anything of that nature. The options are there for any other thread or post but that one. I have posted there before but now I can't for some reason. Please help. Thanks.
I'll echo the consistency of UB, the Perilous Vault version, being superior. The two most important differences are UB's ability to run four Dig Through Time effectively, and utilizing the best sweeper in the game, giving it better card advantage over Esper.
...Camp 3 is Cuneo's build, where they thought Divination played poorly with countermagic. Personally I think Divination is much better with countermagic, since Divination + 2 drop is also 5 mana and a much better turn. Divination is also more efficient on 6 mana where Ingenuity wastes that extra mana. I cut Ingenuity from my list when I realized that I had to spend an entire turn at 5 mana just to use the card. If your hand is 2 Dissolve, 1 Downfall, 1 Ingenuity, the Ingenuity just never get's cast. You opponent has to pass the turn after drawing land or a mana dork you don't care about.
One thing I underestimated, not being a traditional pure control player, is time. The thing that really makes it crucial is when you have to bounce your PLA, especially when you can't recast it right after.
I think Drown is a necessary evil since randomly dying to Rabble Red or something really sucks. Just because aggro decks didn't top 8 the PT doesn't mean they aren't all over.
I agree. I just wish it was more powerful, but I suppose it would make black too powerful. I'm leaning towards adding Extinguish All Hope.
Perilous Vault is great when you're behind, unbeatable when you're ahead. Four copies main is automatic in my builds. Also, Drown in Sorrow is annoyingly mediocre. Is running multiple Aetherspouts bad? Maybe run a couple of Extinguish All Hope?
I ran 4x Ashiok and went 8-0 in games 2 weeks back. The card's purpose is to generate positional advantage in a deck that has no good, expensive power plays. We can't just slam Elspeth, opponent's hand be damned. Prognostic Sphinx doesn't beat most bombs in a straight race. Pearl Lake Ancient is smooth, I'll admit, but try and remember it costs as much as Karn Liberated...
Ashiok is so cheap that he can be played either on turn 3 with your opponent having 1 (or zero) creatures on board that can't do more than 2 dmg to it each turn, or on 5 or 6 mana when it can be cast alongside another disruption spell. It probably whiffs 50% of the time when I activate it, but it's mere presence warps the way the game plays out, which you wouldn't get if it was just another removal spell. It doesn't matter if your opponent Downfalls it and it doesn't matter if they keep it at 3 counters for 10 turns (which would require 20 damage to be soaked up)...
Ashiok isn't central to the deck's gameplan, but if you're playing a version that runs heavy on 2 CMC spells then your Ashiok will:
1) Have you at 20 life on turn 6.
2) Quite possibly pop out a creature if you can make the play of Nullify + Bile Blight/Downfall on turn 4 or 5. Now you have complete board dominance, 5 mana and a hand of draw spells or removal.
3) Come down turn 5 or 6 on a board that's either empty, or only has a Courser or other 2/x creature on it, while letting you hold up countermagic.
The card is only good because it's mana cost. It's closer to a Luminarch Ascension than an actual planeswalker, and often takes several turns to even hit a target, which it then takes an entire other turn to even put in play. It's not a very powerful magic card or anything, but if you try and build your deck with just 1 for 1 overcosted removal and some expensive draw spells, it's not going to work. You need something proactive to stick on the board, and Jace just rotated. Maybe going all-in on Sphinx could work, but 5 mana is a lot when the card basically has double summoning sickness (You can't draw the scried cards till 2 turns after you play him). I run three in my list alongside 3 Ashiok and 1 Jace.
Ashiok is good when it hits, but many times it doesn't, even in relevant creature match ups. If they're running Mono black aggro they should have enough threats on board to kill it. Other decks will likely have an answer in the form of Hero's Downfall, Mantis Rider and burn, etc. It seems like there are mixed experiences with the card but overall it is not reliable in a deck that aims to control the game as it goes late.
I don't think anything we saw from the pro tour lists is going to be relevant, except for sideboard Perilous Vault and maybe singleton Pearl Lake Ancients. They hyper-metagamed those decks against green devotion, but the best performing deck was Jeskai Tempo, which makes their maindeck contruction look embarrassing. Their version has a good matchup against Ari's winning deck, but practically any 75 you throw together in blue and black is going to smash green midrange decks in this format. There's just no need to be running maindeck Disdainful Strokes or Thoughtseizes or Perilous Vaults. Why make a 60/40 matchup 70/30?
One of the reasons Perilous Vault is the best catch all sweeper in the format is because you can use it's effect whenever you want. This keeps your opponent from casting permanents, giving you virtual card advantage. It takes care of anything you weren't able to counter or remove. If you're hitting your land drops and answering every threat, your game plan is working.
It would be nice if there was another threat besides PLA that could survive it without requiring a lot of mana.
I strongly disagree with this. Jeskai shouldn't be classified as burn for one thing, as there are different versions of the deck. If they're running versions with Ascendancy or creatures like Brimaz, then Perilous Vault is fine, but I'll cut two. Second, you're not gonna do better than 50 percent against Jeskai with any version. Any deck can nut draw.
You want to resolve a Murk Lurker, but you're forgetting about Pharika's Cure.
Sounds good. If only Dig Through Time wasn't uu. Talisman of Dominance and Urborg helped with Damnation. Do you have a plan B?
2x Pearl Lake Ancient
Spells: 31
2x Despise
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dig Through Time
4x Dissove
4x Disdainful Stroke
3x Bile Blight
3x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Perilous Vault
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Dismal Backwater
4x Polluted Delta
2x Evolving Wing
1x Radiant Fountain
6x Island
5x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Negate
1x Pharika's Cure
1x Dead Drop
3x Jorubai, Murk Lurker
1x Despise
1x Fated Return
1x Empty the Pits
-1 Pharika's Cure, +1 Dead Drop
Heroic is fast and resilient, so I'm trying the one Dead Drop. Fated Return is still under evaluation, but so far it hasn't disappointed.
Edit: Murderous Cut is better?
Nice report. This shell of U/B control will always be viable. You need four Perilous Vault though. It's all about taking optimal lines and siding correctly. I would continue to run this and learn how to adjust it for the meta. A cheap instant cantrip or two would really put this deck over the top.
Silence the Believers seems like it's good, but it's costly and there aren't enough match ups to justify running it, especially if you're running Vaults.
I agree with your take on Divination and Font of fortunes. We definitely want to be reactive, unless we're playing aggro. It is better to draw run more answers as the deck has enough scry, redundancy and card draw to get what you need.
Not resolving a single thoughtseize has to be an anomaly. It's rarely dead in this deck. The information is very valuable at least, you can pump your Pearl Lake Ancient with it...Discard is very powerful and the only thing you can do on turns one and two.
2x Pearl Lake Ancient
Spells: 31
2x Despise
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dig Through Time
4x Dissove
4x Disdainful Stroke
3x Bile Blight
3x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Perilous Vault
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Dismal Backwater
4x Polluted Delta
2x Evolving Wing
1x Radiant Fountain
6x Island
5x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Negate
2x Pharika's Cure
3x Jorubai, Murk Lurker
1x Despise
1x Fated Return
1x Empty the Pits
Playing the deck correctly depends on what build you choose, but the goal remains the same. The Turtenwald list focused on reactive removal with four Bile Blight, Heroe's Downfall, and two Murderous Cut in anticipation of Green and mid range decks, but I've been running a more discard heavy build because I want to pick off early threats, know what I have to play around, and buy myself time to set my mana up properly and use my counters and removal. They also help me buy time to set up Vault, which is my immediate goal. There are hardly any main deck answers to it. Once it's cast and I untap, it keeps the opponent from playing threats, buying me even more time to draw into counters and removal and eventually Ancient. Playing discard makes this much more feasible, which is why I run six total, five main deck. If they have a clock and my Vault is down, most of the time I take a few attacks until I can find a counter spell or removal and then I pop it. By that time I will have most likely drawn into another. I might go as low as two life if I know I can control the game after I exile the board, my opponent can't deal the last few point of damage, or if I can gain the life back, but knowing when to do it is important. I want to emphasize that Perilous Vault is a great complement and very crucial to the overall control strategy, but it has to be used correctly.
A spicy one of in my side board that acts as a pseudo finisher is Fated Return. It's great against creature decks, re-animator decks, or if you want to have an indestructible Pearl Lake Ancient to hold things down. It's put in quite a bit of work for me and I'm still learning how to use it.
Jace's Ingenuity is good with four Perilous Vault.
I agree. I just wish it was more powerful, but I suppose it would make black too powerful. I'm leaning towards adding Extinguish All Hope.
Ashiok is good when it hits, but many times it doesn't, even in relevant creature match ups. If they're running Mono black aggro they should have enough threats on board to kill it. Other decks will likely have an answer in the form of Hero's Downfall, Mantis Rider and burn, etc. It seems like there are mixed experiences with the card but overall it is not reliable in a deck that aims to control the game as it goes late.
One of the reasons Perilous Vault is the best catch all sweeper in the format is because you can use it's effect whenever you want. This keeps your opponent from casting permanents, giving you virtual card advantage. It takes care of anything you weren't able to counter or remove. If you're hitting your land drops and answering every threat, your game plan is working.
It would be nice if there was another threat besides PLA that could survive it without requiring a lot of mana.