I think that because a lot of Modern staples are so expensive and require a large investment(Bob, Goyf... etc.), it breeds a more competitive playerbase. After all, if you are investing a lot of money into something you probably want to be good at it.
Seems to me that Brad Nelson's deck was just a 'rogue' list, I don't think it will be meta-defining, but rather everyone was just unprepared to deal with it. I especially think the amount of enchantment destruction that people have had has been on the very low side, allowing Assemble the Legion to go unchecked. It just took everyone by surprise, I don't actually think it is a top tier deck, though it is very interesting. But what do I know anyway?
I think this P/T has shown that Devotion decks are the real deal.. and yes like someone previously said, Ultimate Price is now main deckable for as long as this is the meta.
So yeah, my list is much different than that of a typical Junk list. I'm forgoing Smiter+Advent for cheaper creatures that serve dual purposes. Because the meta is so fluctuating right now it's good to have a mainboard that is solid vs. all archetypes.
Mainboard:
Soldier of the Pantheon is a really great card in this deck. I love it because it serves two purposes-- an early beater vs. midrange and control, or a great blocker that also gains life. Therefore making it a good card vs. all 3 archetypes.
Voice of Resurgence is, similarly, a good card vs. all archetypes. Versus aggro it is a great early roadblock that can sometimes even 2-for-1 and vs. midrange+control it is a great discourager of removal, or eats up removal while leaving a blocker behind. It's such a great card and key in most matchups.
Sylvan Caryatid is a pretty obvious one. Ramps/Fixes in all matchups but also is an early blocker vs. aggro. I tend to take it out vs. control though as the games will be longer and there's nothing to block.
Boon Satyr is an all star in this deck. Again, he can serve as an early beater vs. midrange/control and late game his bestow really makes removal and Supreme Verdicts much less threatening. And when he's slapped onto a BBoV it's absurd.
Scavenging Ooze, again, is a pretty good card in all matchups. Versus aggro he's a solid wall that can gain back some life, and vs. midrange and control he is a strong beater with a lot of potential.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa is probably my least favorite creature in the deck, but he really shines vs. decks without a lot of removal, and he destroys GW(b) variants. And he's a tank with Boon Satyr on him, of course.
Obzedat, Ghost Council is an inevitability machine that is hard for the opponent to deal with, especially with VoR on the board. He's probably the most mana efficient finisher in standard right now.
Whip of Erebos gives lifelink vs. aggro-centric decks and some extra reach vs. others. Though it's often not the best mana investment to reanimate the smaller creatures, the fact that it synergizes so well with Obzedat, and the lifelink can really extend games.
Blind Obedience is a card that shouldn't be overlooked, I love it as a 1-of just because it slows down aggro and also gives spells in the mid-late game some added value.
Abrupt Decay handles a lot of annoying permanents and hits the majority of early drop creatures.
Devour Flesh is a failsafe vs. BBoV and does not necessarily have to be in the maindeck, but I like to have it just in case. At worst it's just crappy removal.
Selesnya Charm is a nice combat trick, removal for Obzedat/Desecration Demon etc or just a vigilant token. Either way its a good card to have all the time.
Read the Bones is the best card draw in the colors, and typically the 2 life is not so bad with all the ways to gain life in the deck. 4 is a lot but I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples unless i'm facing a very aggressive deck and they flood my hand.. which is rare.
Sideboard:
Pithing Needle: Basically the only way to deal with Aetherling right now, and also useful vs. Jace AOT and Elspeth.
[CARD]
Underworld Connections[/CARD]: More card draw for the control matchup, though 4x Read the Bones is typically sufficient, if the game is going to be super grindy this is a nice fit.
Abrupt Decay: More AD just in case.. for aggro and D. sphere, essentially.
Pharika's Cure: A good answer to hyper-aggro decks though the BB can be tough in this deck. Not sure if this will stay in the SB.
[CARD]
Selesnya Charm[/CARD]: If Obz/DD/Polukranos are a big problem these can be sided in for more answers to that.
Glare of Heresy: Awesome vs. GW(x) decks and pretty solid vs. control if they use a lot of Elspeth and D spheres.
Thoughtseize: Vs. any non-aggro deck, ripping cards from hands is pretty sweet.
Cabz, are you liking Mindsparker? I tried him out when M14 was first released but never got great results. Just curious if he's become more effective, or maybe it's a local meta call.
I guess she'd pollute your strategy a bit, since you're going with Fanatics, but Elspeth really does kick ass in a big build. Especially if you've already got Purph on deck. People panic when they see her.
Mindsparker is great to switch out vs. control where Reckoner won't do much since they barely run creatures. Between the Mindsparkers and Burning Earth control really is put into a tight spot by just doing anything.
Elspeth isn't really where this deck wants to be. A bit too high on the curve, though the Elspeth + Purp combo is nice, that's kinda a pipe dream and not that likely to happen I don't think.
Loving this deck so far. Originally had it at mono-red but those big green/black creatures were just wayyy too hard to get around, so I splashed white for Chained to the Rocks and SB Glare of Heresy.
#1: Disciple won't be coming down earlier than turn four. You would ideally be having at least two devotion before you play the card, sometimes even three or four. If your opponent has seven cards in hand on turn four, then you're probably in a good position anyways, so it doesn't even matter. And, I know it might be confusing, but you have more than one option to play on turn four. You don't HAVE TO drop a Disciple on Turn four. There's lots of other cards in this deck and if you're playing this card statically, you're going to lose and that's not the decks fault.
#2: Sure, the 1/3 body is not impressive. We don't play the card for it's 1/3 body. And your example with the Boon Satyr? I don't see how that's ever an issue. The deck can deal with a measly four damage, and the Disciple can block any of the other 2/x's that the green player had dropped earlier. Don't forget, Gray Merchant easily drops down for 8+ life drain VERY easily in this deck. Aggro decks have a very hard time against this deck.
#3: Disciple of Phenax helps the game plan by having a powerful ETB effect. Liliana's Reaver has to connect with the opponent to have an effect. In Standard, you tell me which one is better. I'll give you a hint: it's the one that could eat a Supreme Verdict and still have been useful.
Also, stop comparing Disciple to Duress and Sin Collector. They don't fill the same roles, and they don't do the same job. Sure, you see their hand, but that's not the only reason we play Disciple. Stop analyzing Disciple in a vacuum and look at the bigger picture.
EDIT: Let me just add a little bit more about point #1. What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck. This deck builds on itself, and Disciple isn't a card that's supposed to be played by itself. Even with that in mind, it could be turn 12, your opponent has two cards in hand, and even then, playing Disciple for Devotion 2 is still a great play and nothing to ignore.
Not relevant. Mind Rot is an entirely different card. Just because two cards say "discard" in the text doesn't mean that they fill the same role.
You admitting that playing Disciple turn 4 is a bad play just makes your point weaker. That means that he is pretty much useless without support from the rest of the deck.
Yes, he adds devotion, so do a ton of other cards, like some of the ones Twicky_Kid mentioned.
This is a competitive forum, you agreed to the fact that you would be discussing only competitive cards in this forum. Everyone in this thread besides you and your 'friend' have come to a consensus that Disciple of Phenax is not a competitive card, and your main argument of 'just play it' is not leading to valuable discussion nor is anyone changing their mind.
If you want to discuss janky cards you really should not have posted this in the competitive(established) subforum.
3x Daring Skyjet: Don't sleep on this card. 3 power on a 1W drop is incredible early game, and the possibility of evasion is even better. I think that play 4x Imposing Sovereign is a mistake, make room for DS.
No Spear of Heliod. I don't really like Spear... it causes overextension and the 2nd ability isn't really all that useful because this deck is almost always on the offensive. I'd rather have more Ajani (which encourages saving some cards in your hand by buffing up one or two creatures), plus Ajani demands to be dealt with, and actually does something on an empty board.
SB - 3x Rootborn Defenses: Sucks that there are only two ways to generate tokens in the deck for populate, but this card allows you to spill your hand vs. control and casting it in response to a Verdict/AoG with a full board is pretty much game over. It needs to be in there.
SB - 3x Dryad Militant: This is to trade out for Cavalry Pegasus vs. controlish decks that don't have any blockers.. since that's all that Pegasus is good for.
Banisher Priest / Boros Reckoner: Obviously both only valid vs. decks with lots of creatures, otherwise we have better options. You'll want Boros Reckoner in any deck with red/red removal and Priest in the others. 2x of each maindeck just to stay balanced.
Hello everybody! I won last FNM with a MBC, or MBD or any way you want to call it. I played against Big Blue, GW Aggro/Midrange, UW Control and RDW. Also tested against RG Aggro/Midrange feat. Domri, and won with no big problems. Here's the list I was playing:
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
Not sold on Disciple of Phenax... at all. 4 mana for a crappy creature that strips one card? That's what Thoughtseize and Duress are for my friend. Even Lifebane Zombie MB seems more valid... or try Crypt Ghast? I dunno, that card just seems completely overcosted. If it could at least be a beater it'd be okay.
The idea is to be midrangy ramp style with Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid as the main ramp. The main win-con is Stormbreath Dragon as he flies over everyone and his monstrosity is completely relevant. BTE, Polukranos, and Ember Swallower serve as roadblocks vs. aggro to slow them down. Scooze helps to regain some life and is an additional roadblock midgame and a win-con late game. And of course Ghor-Clan for additional damage or a combat trick that serves as pseudo-removal (that can be hit by Domri!!)
I run 4x Magma Jet because I find the scry to be invaluable in most matchups, and the 2 damage can take out aggro creatures/mana dorks. Domri Rade is a necessity, forcing aggro to focus some aggression towards it, or providing immense CA vs. midrange and control. Chandra Pyromaster is similar, some CA or alternatively taking out some smaller creatures.
Sideboard:
2x Mistcutter Hydra and 2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed to side in for Polukranos and Ember swallower in the midrange/control matchups. This shuts off their removal/counters for the most part.
2x Burning Earth serves as a great win-con vs. greedy 3 color decks, namely Dega, Esper, America, or Naya, but applies to any 3 color.
Mono-blue gained nothing from BNG so I think it will fade away, especially with Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow around.
Colossal Gruul got so many new good toys that it will be #2 or #3, and will be the deck i personally am using.
Esper control still has its ridiculous cards from RtR so it will remain top 5.
As for the rest it remains to be seen which archetypes will emerge, but I think that Wx Aggro is well-positioned if someone can perfect it.
And also requires blue...
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Boon Satyr
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Artifact/Enchantment - 2
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Blind Obedience
Instant - 10
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Read the Bones
Land - 24
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
2 Pithing Needle
2 Underworld Connections
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Thoughtseize
So yeah, my list is much different than that of a typical Junk list. I'm forgoing Smiter+Advent for cheaper creatures that serve dual purposes. Because the meta is so fluctuating right now it's good to have a mainboard that is solid vs. all archetypes.
Mainboard:
Soldier of the Pantheon is a really great card in this deck. I love it because it serves two purposes-- an early beater vs. midrange and control, or a great blocker that also gains life. Therefore making it a good card vs. all 3 archetypes.
Voice of Resurgence is, similarly, a good card vs. all archetypes. Versus aggro it is a great early roadblock that can sometimes even 2-for-1 and vs. midrange+control it is a great discourager of removal, or eats up removal while leaving a blocker behind. It's such a great card and key in most matchups.
Sylvan Caryatid is a pretty obvious one. Ramps/Fixes in all matchups but also is an early blocker vs. aggro. I tend to take it out vs. control though as the games will be longer and there's nothing to block.
Boon Satyr is an all star in this deck. Again, he can serve as an early beater vs. midrange/control and late game his bestow really makes removal and Supreme Verdicts much less threatening. And when he's slapped onto a BBoV it's absurd.
Scavenging Ooze, again, is a pretty good card in all matchups. Versus aggro he's a solid wall that can gain back some life, and vs. midrange and control he is a strong beater with a lot of potential.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa is probably my least favorite creature in the deck, but he really shines vs. decks without a lot of removal, and he destroys GW(b) variants. And he's a tank with Boon Satyr on him, of course.
Obzedat, Ghost Council is an inevitability machine that is hard for the opponent to deal with, especially with VoR on the board. He's probably the most mana efficient finisher in standard right now.
Whip of Erebos gives lifelink vs. aggro-centric decks and some extra reach vs. others. Though it's often not the best mana investment to reanimate the smaller creatures, the fact that it synergizes so well with Obzedat, and the lifelink can really extend games.
Blind Obedience is a card that shouldn't be overlooked, I love it as a 1-of just because it slows down aggro and also gives spells in the mid-late game some added value.
Abrupt Decay handles a lot of annoying permanents and hits the majority of early drop creatures.
Devour Flesh is a failsafe vs. BBoV and does not necessarily have to be in the maindeck, but I like to have it just in case. At worst it's just crappy removal.
Doom Blade kills things.
Hero's Downfall also kills things.
Selesnya Charm is a nice combat trick, removal for Obzedat/Desecration Demon etc or just a vigilant token. Either way its a good card to have all the time.
Read the Bones is the best card draw in the colors, and typically the 2 life is not so bad with all the ways to gain life in the deck. 4 is a lot but I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples unless i'm facing a very aggressive deck and they flood my hand.. which is rare.
Sideboard:
Pithing Needle: Basically the only way to deal with Aetherling right now, and also useful vs. Jace AOT and Elspeth.
[CARD]
Underworld Connections[/CARD]: More card draw for the control matchup, though 4x Read the Bones is typically sufficient, if the game is going to be super grindy this is a nice fit.
Abrupt Decay: More AD just in case.. for aggro and D. sphere, essentially.
Pharika's Cure: A good answer to hyper-aggro decks though the BB can be tough in this deck. Not sure if this will stay in the SB.
[CARD]
Selesnya Charm[/CARD]: If Obz/DD/Polukranos are a big problem these can be sided in for more answers to that.
Glare of Heresy: Awesome vs. GW(x) decks and pretty solid vs. control if they use a lot of Elspeth and D spheres.
Thoughtseize: Vs. any non-aggro deck, ripping cards from hands is pretty sweet.
Mindsparker is great to switch out vs. control where Reckoner won't do much since they barely run creatures. Between the Mindsparkers and Burning Earth control really is put into a tight spot by just doing anything.
Elspeth isn't really where this deck wants to be. A bit too high on the curve, though the Elspeth + Purp combo is nice, that's kinda a pipe dream and not that likely to happen I don't think.
2 Hammer of Purphoros
Creature - 22
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Chained to the Rocks
Instant - 6
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
Planeswalker - 4
4 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land - 24
15 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mindsparker
3 Burning Earth
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Pithing Needle
Anyway, this deck is super fun, fast, and efficient. It has good matchups around the board and I'd be pretty confident to take it to a tournament tbh.
You admitting that playing Disciple turn 4 is a bad play just makes your point weaker. That means that he is pretty much useless without support from the rest of the deck.
Yes, he adds devotion, so do a ton of other cards, like some of the ones Twicky_Kid mentioned.
This is a competitive forum, you agreed to the fact that you would be discussing only competitive cards in this forum. Everyone in this thread besides you and your 'friend' have come to a consensus that Disciple of Phenax is not a competitive card, and your main argument of 'just play it' is not leading to valuable discussion nor is anyone changing their mind.
If you want to discuss janky cards you really should not have posted this in the competitive(established) subforum.
4 Boros Elite
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Cavalry Pegasus
4 Precinct Captain
3 Daring Skyjet
3 Imposing Sovereign
3 Frontline Medic
2 Banisher Priest
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
4 Brave the Elements
Planeswalker - 3
3 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Land - 22
18 Plains
4 Mutavault
3 Celestial Flare
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Pacifism
3 Dryad Militant
1 Banisher Priest
1 Boros Reckoner
Some things of note--
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ember Swallower
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Magma Jet
Planeswalker
4 Domri Rade
2 Chandra Pyromaster
Land
9 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Burning Earth
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Plummet
4 Mizzium Mortars
Mainboard:
The idea is to be midrangy ramp style with Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid as the main ramp. The main win-con is Stormbreath Dragon as he flies over everyone and his monstrosity is completely relevant. BTE, Polukranos, and Ember Swallower serve as roadblocks vs. aggro to slow them down. Scooze helps to regain some life and is an additional roadblock midgame and a win-con late game. And of course Ghor-Clan for additional damage or a combat trick that serves as pseudo-removal (that can be hit by Domri!!)
I run 4x Magma Jet because I find the scry to be invaluable in most matchups, and the 2 damage can take out aggro creatures/mana dorks. Domri Rade is a necessity, forcing aggro to focus some aggression towards it, or providing immense CA vs. midrange and control. Chandra Pyromaster is similar, some CA or alternatively taking out some smaller creatures.
Sideboard:
2x Mistcutter Hydra and 2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed to side in for Polukranos and Ember swallower in the midrange/control matchups. This shuts off their removal/counters for the most part.
2x Burning Earth serves as a great win-con vs. greedy 3 color decks, namely Dega, Esper, America, or Naya, but applies to any 3 color.
2x Destructive Revelry for Whip of Erebos and Detention Spheres, as well as any gimmicky Trading Post deck and what not.
3x Plummet for evil Desecration Demons or opposing Stormbreath Dragons. Don't forget this is a card people!
4x Mizzium Mortars for creature dense decks that include Stormbreath Dragons or Blood Barons.