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  • posted a message on New Aristocrats (Orzhov, Abzan, Mardu variants)
    Hmm I like jace, he has a lot of synergy with the strategy. I'm a bit afraid he is almost never going to live since except for hedron crab all other creatures are bad targets for removal spells, but he definitely is good in the deck. Ideas unbound is good but I think faithless looting is better since you don't have to draw it, we mill about as much as we draw in a game. Usually turn 3 I can loot and keep the cards flowing.

    Unfortunately I agree, I'm afraid in general this is a bad dredge deck, we don't do enough with our graveyard. I'm thinking about playing one or two golgari thug. Thug has bad synergy when on the battlefield but the dredge is really nice.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on New Aristocrats (Orzhov, Abzan, Mardu variants)
    Ok I have been brewing and goldfishing a little bit and this is where I am at the moment.



    I'm following Lyvefire's original comment and going all in on the dredge plan with mystic retrieval here. This version of the deck doesn’t care much about establishing a board presence and goes all in on the combo.
    The way the deck plays is very straightforward. In the first few turns of the game you try to mill yourself as much as possible (with stitcher's supplier, satyr wayfinder and faithless looting), get to 4 mana as fast as possible (manabirds), discard your drainers (faithless looting, neonate), and dig towards a rally (faithless looting, neonate, mystic retrieval). Cast a rally and win! (

    Some thoughts about the list:
    -The manabase is not perfect but I think it is good enough. Early game acces to red and green mana is the most important , only on turn 4 do you need 2 white mana
    -Faithless looting works as the engine of the deck. Early game it discards drainers/lands while digging towards wayfinders/suppliers/lands/rally. Mid game you start flashbacking earlier played or milled lootings to find a rally/mystic retrieval.
    - Insolent neonate is the weakest card in the deck but for now I’ll try it out because it gives you additional ways to discard mystic retrieval/drainers and together with viscera seer you can sometimes sac a few creatures, scry a rally to the top and immediately draw (and cast) it.
    -Noble hierarch could be a blisterpod. Blisterpod makes it possible to combo with fewer creatures in the graveyard, but I think the more reliable ramp + white mana fixing makes noble better
    - Return to the ranks is a lot worse in this version since you don’t play company/witness to establish a board, the goal here really is to dump your hand and library in the graveyard and go for one big rally as soon as possible. So yes this deck is a glass canon but I think a pretty effective one.

    Any thoughts?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on New Aristocrats (Orzhov, Abzan, Mardu variants)
    I can't wait to try stitcher's supplier, it's such a sweet card to brew around.
    For me the aristocrats is all about abusing rally the ancestors or return to the ranks. Individually most of our cards are pretty bad but these two cards are the reason you want to play aristocrats, they are what make the archetype (semi)competitive.

    So what do you need to make rally/return good/impactful?
    1. You need to play around 30 creatures
    2. You need at least a handful of these creatures in your graveyard (the more the better)
    3. You need at least one (preferably two or three) life drainers in play or in your graveyard
    4. You need one of these creatures to be a sacrifice engine (in case of rally)
    5. You need to find/recur the rally/return
    6. You need to survive until you have 4 mana.

    With that in mind I think 4 viscera seer, 4 stitcher's, 4 satyr wayfinder, 2 cartel aristocrat and 6 drainers are pretty much mandatory to achieve the points above. I don't think you can go lower than 6 drainers and you probably should play more.
    For me the question is what to play around this core. The bird/Coco/witness package is pretty good at making rally a better card. I especially like the speed the birds give to the deck. Collected company is also just an all around great card that digs for specific cards (drainers/sac engines).
    Red gives you card draw combined with graveyard fuel. Faithless looting is one of the better cards in modern and it fits particular well within our strategy so I'm gonna give it a shot. I might be wrong about insolent neonate he might not do enough. R: sac neonate, discard a cartel/ d, draw a card. End result: 2 bodies in your graveyard + dig towards rally. Is this powerful enough? He’s not the best topdeck.

    The bird / coco / eternal witness route is probably the most consistent. A 4 color variant is ambitious, especially when you are milling away lands you may want to fetch. It's not impossible but you probably have to play a few rainbow lands, not sure if that is worth it.


    Quote from The_RedEye »

    • I don't like adding red for the Faithless looting effects. Eternal witness is a lot more important to get back your wincon of Rally the ancestors. Red would be a fourth color and much too greedy IMO. Besides, if you want a third, you can get Grisly Salvage
    • You don't need that many artists/cutthroates if you're filling your graveyard. It will just happen and you can rally and get two on the board. I don't suggest more than 6. I think 3 or 4 would work with enough graveyard fillers.
    Hi The_RedEye!
    I hadn't thought of Grisly salvage. Hmm not sure if I like it, 2 mana and not digging towards rally/return makes it a lot worse compared to faithless looting. Probably not good enough.
    I agree the manabase might be problematic. I’ll try to find a solution. I disagree with playing only 3/4 artists/cutthroats, I think you need at least 6. You won’t always mill one if you only play 3 / 4. Even if you do, one drainer is usually not gonna win you the game, you need more.
    Quote from The_RedEye »
    Now Here's my thoughts on changes to experiment with and consider:
    • AGRO ARISTOCRAT COBMO!!! Satyr Wayfinder is great when it comes in but is useless after. Stitcher's supplier is good both coming in and out. That's 4 great targets for Cartel aristocrat. Persist and self replacers like Blisterpod and Doomed Traveler could be great 1 drop additions. I'd personally prefer Blisterpod or Young Wolf as free green mana chord tappers.
    • Let's not forget to add Grim Flayer as an added third card to bin things. On a plus side, he's a mini goyf.
    • As an even newer scary addition, Bob is a great draw engine that combos well with Grim Flayer. Something I think people haven't been abusing enough. And with sufficient sac outlets, is fine.
    • I have been playing chord with Maralen of the Mornsong. It's a great EoT chord target to get your rally if you want to win the next turn. It's also a great response to search for your one or two anti graveyard hate. Then just sac it as neccessary so the opponent doesn't get a search.

    Here's a skeleton of an agro decklist. Currently at 41 cards. Having a hard time deciding what to cut. Plus I don't think it has enough variety for grim flayer to be useful though dropping something for saproling migration sounds nice.



    Still thinking about my chord variant if it's worth it. Really liked being able to chord maralen EoT to win or in response win by chording for the final piece like an artist or sac outlet. I'll give that some thought too
    Hmm I don't think adding value cards that don’t have an enter or leave the battlefield trigger is the way to go with the deck. Cards like grim flayer and dark confidant don’t generate card advantage when you rally them. Usually one for one removal spells are pretty mediocre against aristocrats, adding cards like dark confidant and grim flayer make them better.
    Grim flayer doesn't look great, getting 4 different card types in your graveyard is hard to achieve and the self mill is pretty unreliable since you need to connect first. The deck needs more synergy not individual power in my opinion.
    Not sure about the aggro/combo goal of your list. Most of the cards don't like to attack so I wouldn't focus on being aggro. Sure when you can get a hit in with aristocrat go for it but most of the time it is better to save your creatures for multiple drains.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on New Aristocrats (Orzhov, Abzan, Mardu variants)
    Hi Shelldell I like your list
    Quote from Shelldell »
    Between Wayfinder and Stitcher you can get enough creatures in your grave that Rally starts to become more attractive than Return. It can also return E-Wit, which is important to get discarded copies of Rally and CoCo back into hand. I think running all 8 Blood Artists is the way to go here. They power up your sac loops much more than fodder like Doomed Traveler / Voice, and we already have Stitcher, Wayfinder, Dorks, and Cartel Aristocrat to act as blockers.
    I started with 7-8 copies of Return/Rally but IMO they're too boom/bust -- if your grave is full they're great, if you haven't drawn into your Stitchers or Wayfinders they just clog up your hand. 4 CoCo / 4 Rally seems like a better balance.
    If you can reliably get a sac outlet in play/ graveyard I agree rally is a lot better here. 4 viscera seer and 2 cartel aristocrat are probably enough. I really like the addition eternal witness here. She has great synergy with Coco and getting back milled rally's. I sometimes find her to be a bit clunky but with 6 birds you're probably fine.
    More blood artists are good for comboing but I don't like how they clog up your hand.

    Quote from Shelldell »
    Overall probably still too fair and slow to be terribly competitive, lol. I've tried to build the sideboard around that... Ensnaring Bridge seems great for this deck since it doesn't necessarily need to attack.

    Ensnaring bridge does seem good, or maybe even worship. Yeah I think we are good against fair decks but pretty bad against unfair decks game 1. This sideboard looks like as good as a job you can do.


    What do you think about faithless looting in a deck like this? Looting is tough on the manabase and not a creature but apart from that does a lot of work (discarding creatures and drawing towards our payoff spell). I like the birds/coco/witness package but I'm thinking whether instead of going the Coco route we should play more like dredge. Insolent neonate comes to mind.


    Just a rough idea. In this version instead of ramping you focus more on filling your graveyard as fast as possible. Splashing for satyr wayfinder is a bit awkward here.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Stitcher's Supplier
    Very promising for modern aristocrats decks trying to abuse return to the ranks and rally the ancestors.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on New Aristocrats (Orzhov, Abzan, Mardu variants)
    Hey what do you guys think of this new M19 card Stitcher's supplier? I think this card looks really good for the aristocrat archetype. Great synergy with return to the ranks and rally the ancestors for only one mana.


    The idea here is use satyr wayfinder and stitcher's supplier to fill your graveyard and combo-drain them out with return/rally. Tidehollow sculler is a necessary evil to not die to combo decks. Don't know if voice of resurgence or path are necessary.

    Edit: I think the deck needs a few more one drops. Maybe a few Birds of paradise/doomed traveler/ blisterpod and shave some paths/voice of resurgence

    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Hey all! Is there anyone who has any extensive experience with Hostage taker out of the sideboard and how to play the card? At the SCG Team open, the winner had 2 in the sideboard. Ofcourse she can generate a lot of card advantage while adding pressure to the board but isn't she just too fragile and expensive? I haven't played with her but to me it seems like often she will be stuck in your hand and or be removed before you can cast the creature/artifact. How often does she do what you want her to do? Do you only cast her with vial on 4 end of turn, or just pray they don't have a removal spell?
    Against which decks is she at her best?



    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Hey just wanted to link to this article and generate some discussion https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-5-color-humans-flex-slots/

    The core of the vial humans archetype is pretty well established, but what are your preferred flex spots at the moment?
    I went with one Thraben inspector, one Kessig malcontents and one Dire-fleet daredevil last FNM (3 Phantasmal image, 3 Thalia, guardian of thraben).
    Not sure about the thraben inspector but I like the idea of having an additional one drop. I will try the bodyguard when Dominaria comes out.

    Last friday I had a pretty sweet play.. My opponent resolved a worship game one with a hexproof creaure on board. I was about to scoop since we run no enchantment removal mainboard until I noticed the collective brutality in her graveyard. I managed to stall the board with meddling mages/freebooters for the next 10/12 turns until I drew my single main board dire-fleet daredevil for the win.

    Deputy of acquittals can be a nice trick, I will try one out.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    I saw some lists at the gp running one or two Pia and Kiran nalaar main deck with two red sources to sac the tokens/ vials/ clue (2 reflecting pool). I can see the appeal in a metagame with lots of removal but Pia and Kiran nalaar still costs 4 mana and having red mana available to sac is not a guarantee. Don't know what to think about this inclusion.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Quote from Scarlatti »
    I have some good results with Vial Humans and 3 main Merieke ri berek instead of 2 little Thalia and an anafenza


    Merieke in combination with vial sounds interesting, first time I see the card mentioned in this thread. Vialling in Merieke at the end of an opponents turn is sexy. Not sure if I would want Merieke maindeck though and definitely not 3. Reflector mage is already bad against non-creature match-ups but at least has a 2/3 body.
    Not sure if she is better than Hostage taker. Not being able to take artifacts is a thing, and the fact that she doesn't provide an attacking body in an aggro deck is pretty meh. Biggest drawback is probably that she doesn't do anything the turn she comes into play. She has a few advantages though so you can make an argument for her. I will try them both.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    I played quite a lot with renegade rallier in an earlier bant version of this deck. I love the card but you need to play at least 8 fetchlands (preferably 10) and some horizon canopy's and a ghost quarter to reliably trigger revolt. Knight of the reliquary and phantasmal image are Ralliers friends.
    There are a lot of quality 2 drops in the 5c version that you want to reanimate but you have to trigger revolt first. There are better 3 drops in a 5c humans.

    I don't have any experience with Norin the wary but I suspect the favorable interaction with champion and lieutenant is way too situational and not worth a card.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Quote from jbhmickey »
    Alright, back to the potential 5-Color CoCo mana base...

    https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

    I use this article as my guide when trying to build mana bases, and I've been playing around with the following:

    1 Breeding Pool
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Forest
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Plains
    2 Razorverge Thicket
    1 Stomping Ground
    1 Temple Garden
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Windswept Heath

    Based on Karsten's rationale, this would give:
    -12 natural green sources to cast CoCo by T3*
    -9 natural white sources to cast Path*
    -20 green sources for creatures
    -17 white sources for creatures
    -14 blue sources for creatures
    -14 black sources for creatures
    -14 red sources for creatures

    *If you add 4 Hierarch and 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim, that would add an additional 2 green sources, 3 white sources, and 2 blue sources by the article's reasoning. That makes casting CoCo and path more viable earlier in the game.

    I don't have Horizon Canopy available to me currently which is why it's not included. I could also see adding 1 Reflecting Pool or one Mana Confluence for one of the Thickets to hedge your bets with creatures.

    I would appreciate any feedback you could offer, thanks!


    I like this manabase. I would indeed switch one thicket for a horizon canopy and probably the other thicket for a mana confluence, but maybe I'm being greedy and should be more concerned about burn.
    The only problem I see with this manabase is curving out mantis rider and meddling mage. If you start with overgrown tomb or forest you can't turn 3 mantis rider. And with stomping ground, overgrown tomb or forest you can't curve out meddling mage. The solution would be to use godless shrine and sacred foundry and switch the misty rainforest for a flooded strand.
    Not sure if this is better though. Green is important for dorks and Coco.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Quote from kingcars »
    I'm honestly not 100% sure. My gut says that the Freebooter/MM/Sin Collector list is going to be better against the general meta since it has very good matchups with most of the popular decks, but I think if we can have a stable list that can utilize that alongside a fast clock like Mantis Rider, we could have the best of both worlds.


    Ok, I saw this and couldn't resist going back again to 5C lands. Gemstone mine, mana confluence, reflecting pool and ancient ziggurat all have problems. Gemstone mine can only produce mana 3x, mana confluence pings you every time you tap it, reflecting pool is bad without a 5c land next to it and Ancient ziggurat is a no no with Collected company.

    Solution: Don't play Coco.
    3 questions:
    1: Is there a world where we can build a perfect 5C manabase where we can play any configuration of humans we want?
    2: Does the advantage of being able to play any human we want offset the loss of CoCo?
    3: Blood moon

    Yeah probably not, but hey I'm just theorizing here :p


    This manabase can cast any configuration of humans you throw at it, so that's good. And now with CoCo gone we can potentially play some cool 4cmc humans

    Hero of bladehold
    Ranger of eos
    Huntmaster of the fells
    Hostage taker
    Master of the wild hunt
    Nekrataal
    Pia and kiran nalaar
    Venser, shaper savant

    Hmm these cards are good but not amazing. As has been mentioned before in this thread it's probably better to stick low to the ground without Coco and go more aggro.
    Ok I convinced myself while writing this that a non fetch-shock manabase is probably not the way. Coco is one of the most powerful cards in the format so not playing it is most likely a misstake anyway.
    Still posting this to show you my thought process. If in the future an overpowered 4cmc human gets printed, it might be worth exploring this manabase.

    Anyway, I hope we can find a way to play mantis rider alongside black hand disruption humans because I agree that would be the best of both worlds.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    I'm probably reaching a bit. I have played with auriok champion and she is obviously a good card against burn. However in top deck mode she is worse than other anti burn cards and casting it on turn 2 (which you want to do to start blocking and gain life in consequent turns) is often painful. That is what I meant with her being unreliable.
    In her defense spreading out the lifegain is good against skullcrack. They still have the possibility of killing champion when you block with it but it makes skullcrack less efficient.

    In the end I prefer Burrenton forge-tender and Blessed alliance in the anti-burn sideboard slots, since I think they have more value in other match-ups. Which cards do you guys prefer against burn? Any love for Dromoka's command?
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Modern Humans
    Using cavern of souls and unclaimed territory in combination with eldrazi displacer and a creature toolbox sideboard is a really interesting idea, I like it. Eldrazi displacer is a powerful card, however I'm not sure how many targets he has in this version. Reflector mage and eternal witness are obviously great blink targets but I don't think blinking thalia's lieutenant is that good. Sometimes you play one with a few humans out and it is obviously great to blink but other times it's already big and you actively don't want to blink it. Or you only have a displacer and lieutenant in which case blinking doesn't do anything.
    Anyway displacer does a lot more than only blinking your own cards, it's a great card. Would be interesting to see if it's ability is worth the downside of not being a human. I would probably only play 2, maybe 3 since it's not that great turn 3. It doesn't grow anything and it's ability is more useful late game when you have other 3 drops out.

    I don't know your meta but I don't like Auriok champion. She doesn't race well, she's a slow double white (painful) 1/1 that dies to snapcaster mage and doesn't reliably give you life against burn. The only thing she does well is blocking.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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