Can anybody find Greater Auramancy? I was interested in making an enchantment prison deck, but it looks like the start of Modern season is not the right time to find pieces.
Do you really want Tron getting to cast this for free with Eye of Ugin out (is that how the cost reduction with the new colorless mana works?)?
Eye of Ugin would reduce it to just C, as it only reduces generic costs.
Got it, thanks.
Eye of Ugin won't reduce anything from Warping Wail as it isn't an Eldrazi spell. Wizards doesn't use the card type Tribal anymore, so the only Eldrazi spells in BFZ and OGW are Eldrazi creatures. Look at All is Dust and see the Tribal and Eldrazi in the type line.
Finally something worth testing in Elves from Oath. Oath of Nissa looks great along with Cloudstone Curio and Abundant Growth. Another 1 mana enchantment to bounce back an forth to draw/search. With all the mana Elves generates you'll draw faster than any attrition deck will be able to keep up with.
Look at what Oath of Nissa digs for: Creatures, Lands, and Planeswalkers. Usually I'm just waiting for Garruk, Nykthos, or Heritage Druid to win the game.
The filter clause isn't as useful, but could come in handy in a rare scenario where you draw Nykthos and Cavern of Souls, but no forests.
I'm finally excited for a card from the BFZ block and will start testing right away.
Edit:
Forgot to mention you can get some mileage with two of these and Curio even if they are legendary. Be sure to send the new one to the graveyard and the Curio trigger can still bounce the first. It can't repeat indefinitely like two Abundant Growths, but two, 3 deep digs will still be powerful and set you up for a combo.
Will Skill Borrower be able to activate again in the following scenarios?
For all of them assume Skill Borrower has been effected by Lifelace and is green.
Different Patron of the Orochi card:
The top card of the library is Patron of the Orochi. Activate Skill Borrower in the upkeep then draw the Patron. A second Patron is now the top card.
Same Patron of the Orochi card, but had a card placed above it
The top card of the library is Patron. Activate Skill Borrow and then cast Fallow Earth putting a land above Patron. Next cast a cantrip and have the Patron be the top card again.
Same Patron of the Orochi card, but had a card placed above it and removed in one spell
The top card of the library is Patron. Activate Skill Borrow and then resolve Footbottom Feast targeting one creature card.
In any loop you aren't compelled to use a Doom Blade, activate Qasali Pridemage, or use another resource to break the loop. But Metamorph will be part of the choices, so a judge will ask you to eventually choose that and and copy Melira.
How do you put text/decks inside of those blue buttons to hide/un-hide them?
Caspian,
Thank you for the Spreading Algae build. I'm slowing getting the pieces needed to construct it as it looks fun. As for how to hide decks or any other text you want use the [ spoiler] [ /spoiler] tags (without the spaces of course).
What do you do if I as the opponent have Wipe Away or Take Possession in the Petals of Insight scenario? I declare I want to interrupt the loop at its 45,006 iteration. How do you assemble the library? Do we start implementing bubble sort on the deck and go to time as we try to process through all its steps 45,006 times?
Why that iteration in particular? If you are proposing that you interrupt after 45,006 iterations as a counter to the opponent's initial proposal of N iterations to do a bubble sort, then interrupting at a specific number of iterations suggests that (a) you know the order of your opponent's deck already and (b) you've worked out the algorithm well enough in advance to know that 45,006 is the optimal number of iterations to allow your opponent to perform before you interrupt. That seems suspect, to say the least. If this isn't the case, then the only reason I can see to propose interrupting at an arbitrary point in the middle is to throw a wrench into having the shortcut work. This isn't the same thing as "Rakdos Charm once you've made the 20th Deceiver Exarch", where there's a clear purpose to interrupting at a specific time.
Tactically, if your objective is to deprive your opponent of a piece to the engine that is allowing them to cast Petals repeatedly, the optimal time to do so would be before the first time Petals resolves, since this minimizes the amount of new information your opponent is able to gather.
I'd like the question answered, but if a scenario is needed where one would interrupt the loop at an arbitrarily large number* two similar ones are provided below. Please answer in context to these if needed.
It is game three of a match and both players have 1 win each. It is in the first main phase. Wipe Away player saw in game 1 that the Petals player wins after assembling the combo**. The Wipe Away player also sees the Petals player will win with 4 more attacks with their creatures. In main 1 the Petals player activates the combo to try and win. The Wipe Away player will lose in 4 turns if they stop the combo immediately and will lose if they let the combo continue. If Wipe Away asks to interrupt the combo at a large number N as defined in 716.2b, how is this situation handled?
The game state should be at the Nth step in the state where then the Wipe Away player can put Wipe Away on the stack. In most loops in magic the state is simple to produce and everything will jump there. In this scenario we've allowed a more complicated algorithm to run with a well defined end state, but complicated to produce in between states.
If we do have to produce the Nth step the Wipe Away player sees an opportunity to go to time and get a draw instead of a game and match loss. Does the match go to time trying to do bubble sort on a queue? It is now tactically advantageous for the Wipe Away player to play for the draw. Honestly, by the rules, they don't even need a wipe away or even specify what they'd do at step N. Just they'd like the board state to be in step N and then perform an action.
It is game 3 of a match and both players have one win. The Petals player goes for the combo to win. The opponent has Thought Scour they can cast and no way to win the game. They ask to stop the loop at step N according to rule 716.2b. The Thought Scour player has 2 hopes either force a draw as the game has to go to time getting to step N of the loop or hit a critical card with the thought scour and both players are without win conditions.
It is tactically advantageous for the Thought Scour player to attempt to have the match go to time as the Thought Scour might not hit a critical card. Thought Scour is not playing for a draw.
I know that someone playing with this combo is small, that the player encounters someone who is playing Wipe Away is smaller still, and a scenario where you wouldn't just cast Wipe Away immediately is vanishingly small. Also, the likelihood of a situation where someone would see they have no outs, but has a Thought Scour is also small. So I can accept that the answer is we'll decide when this is encountered.
If this is the case can I at least get an acknowledgement that this shortcut actually violates the rules about conditionals, but leads to smoother game play in general?
* 45,006 was just a number chosen by me with no relation to anything but to say it is a large number
** Say they cast Reforge the Soul and use the next 7 cards in some combination to win the game on the spot.
What do you do if I as the opponent have Wipe Away or Take Possession in the Petals of Insight scenario? I declare I want to interrupt the loop at its 45,006 iteration. How do you assemble the library? Do we start implementing bubble sort on the deck and go to time as we try to process through all its steps 45,006 times?
I understand we have these rulings to help the game flow better. Also, the likelihood of this infinite combo happening at the same time as the opponent has Wipe Away is vanishingly small, but isn't this why the comprehensive rules says there cannot be conditionals in a loop?
The way it is currently worded it prevents discarding any card.
Perhaps I am missing some broken interaction, but.. Would that be a bad thing? Atbwhat point after you have got your 10 mana creature into play would being able to pitch cards be busted?
Also I assumed that with it worded as a cost, the ability would need a legal target to resolve and thus could not be abused in that way? After all you can't sink mana into an ability that targets and choose to have it do nothing if there is no target, right?
Short answer: Could be a bad thing in some scenarios. Yes you can dump cards with the wrong CMC with your proposed wording.
Long answer:
I haven't played Legacy competitively (only Modern), but I do play multiplayer casual Legacy/Vintage. I do know that the re-animator player in our group usually tries to get back Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur first as he needs more creatures in the graveyard since his first will be dealt with. Perhaps true for legacy as well as the first can be sworded?
As for the second part of this. If the ability was "Discard a card: ...", one could certainly pitch cards that didn't have the correct mana cost. It would just mean the spell isn't countered. It is similar to how Spellskite can try to redirect any spell multiple times even if it cannot target Spellskite.
Quote from "Rulings on Spellskite" »
You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
I've seen a player go from 20 to 2 life from this interaction after a Mindslaver activation.
Edit: Also Kozilek's ability seems to be worded strangely.. I would expect:
"Discard a card: Counter spell with the same converted mana cost as the discarded card"
Using X is just a bit short-cutty for normally clear RnD wording.
The way it is currently worded it prevents discarding any card. In the version you provided you can dump any CMC card into your graveyard regardless of its CMC.
How do you know? It seems more logical that Wastes is the same as Island, Mountain, Swamp, Plains, or Forest. It sure looks the same. And your right, none of the current fetches could grab the land. Which is also really dumb.
If wizards was looking to help EDH, print this crap in a Commander set, not normal rotation.
Wastes does not look the same as Island, Mountain, Swamp, Plains, or Forest. Take a look at the lower right corner. Wastes has no basic land type. How does that seem more logical when they aren't even the same?
I'm certain it will be a split for generic vs colorless mana and I'm excited to see what design space this gives for Modern playable cards.
Assuming <> is just the new colorless symbol and <> costs can only be paid in colorless, good enough <> cards could theoretically make people start using 4x painlands and hybrid filters in Modern. That would really be something.
That's true, that would be a nice effect, but the chaos it would produce is just beyond everything reasonable.
Do we now have to errata Thran Dynamo to " Add '<>' '<>' '<>' " ??
And what does Heartless Summoning do now ? Does it reduce ONLY, or also '<>' ?
I would honestly hate a swap of symbols like this after they printed cards for like 20 years with different ones ...
To prevent going back and changing 20+ years of cards, but also not relive snow cards, this is a change to separate colorless from generic mana.
I'm excited about this card's potential in modern and would like to get it before it is too pricey.
Look at what Oath of Nissa digs for: Creatures, Lands, and Planeswalkers. Usually I'm just waiting for Garruk, Nykthos, or Heritage Druid to win the game.
The filter clause isn't as useful, but could come in handy in a rare scenario where you draw Nykthos and Cavern of Souls, but no forests.
I'm finally excited for a card from the BFZ block and will start testing right away.
Edit:
Forgot to mention you can get some mileage with two of these and Curio even if they are legendary. Be sure to send the new one to the graveyard and the Curio trigger can still bounce the first. It can't repeat indefinitely like two Abundant Growths, but two, 3 deep digs will still be powerful and set you up for a combo.
For all of them assume Skill Borrower has been effected by Lifelace and is green.
In any loop you aren't compelled to use a Doom Blade, activate Qasali Pridemage, or use another resource to break the loop. But Metamorph will be part of the choices, so a judge will ask you to eventually choose that and and copy Melira.
Came here to post a link to this thread =).
Looks like Immortal Coil + Angel's Grace could be a good way to go.
Caspian,
Thank you for the Spreading Algae build. I'm slowing getting the pieces needed to construct it as it looks fun. As for how to hide decks or any other text you want use the [ spoiler] [ /spoiler] tags (without the spaces of course).
I know that someone playing with this combo is small, that the player encounters someone who is playing Wipe Away is smaller still, and a scenario where you wouldn't just cast Wipe Away immediately is vanishingly small. Also, the likelihood of a situation where someone would see they have no outs, but has a Thought Scour is also small. So I can accept that the answer is we'll decide when this is encountered.
If this is the case can I at least get an acknowledgement that this shortcut actually violates the rules about conditionals, but leads to smoother game play in general?
* 45,006 was just a number chosen by me with no relation to anything but to say it is a large number
** Say they cast Reforge the Soul and use the next 7 cards in some combination to win the game on the spot.
I understand we have these rulings to help the game flow better. Also, the likelihood of this infinite combo happening at the same time as the opponent has Wipe Away is vanishingly small, but isn't this why the comprehensive rules says there cannot be conditionals in a loop?
Long answer:
I haven't played Legacy competitively (only Modern), but I do play multiplayer casual Legacy/Vintage. I do know that the re-animator player in our group usually tries to get back Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur first as he needs more creatures in the graveyard since his first will be dealt with. Perhaps true for legacy as well as the first can be sworded?
As for the second part of this. If the ability was "Discard a card: ...", one could certainly pitch cards that didn't have the correct mana cost. It would just mean the spell isn't countered. It is similar to how Spellskite can try to redirect any spell multiple times even if it cannot target Spellskite. I've seen a player go from 20 to 2 life from this interaction after a Mindslaver activation.
I'm certain it will be a split for generic vs colorless mana and I'm excited to see what design space this gives for Modern playable cards.
- Kozilek, the Great Distortion: Requires 8 generic and 2 colorless
- Wastes: Generates one colorless mana
- Thran Dynamo: Generates three generic mana
- Heartless Summoning: Reduces the generic cost of creatures spells by 2. It does not reduce WUBRG. Nor does it reduce '<>'
That way the new cards will be useful outside of their one small set and doesn't require errata for all of the history of magic.