Went to my local shop last night for Mondern Monday, which had like 34 people, and crushed it by going 4-0 for first place and bunch of store credit. I guess there was one other 4-0, too, but somehow i was announced as first, so booya.
I played the Gerry T. list (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32088_Video-Grixis-Control-In-Modern.html), but made some small tweaks to the main and sideboard:
MAIN
+1 Snapcaster
-1 K Command
+1 Spell Snare
-1 Manaleak
SIDEBOARD
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spellskite
+1 Olivia Voldaren
+1 Damnation
+1 Painful Truths
-1 Countersquall
-1 Tribute to Hunger
-1 Radiant Flames
-2 Vandalblast
-2 Bitterblossom
I ended up beating Grishoalbrand in two games by discarding all his reanimate spells, Scapeshift in 3 games by getting lucky in our game 3 top deck war, Jund in 3 games, then Naya Zoo in 2 games. The deck felt great, even on like 4 or 5 mulls to 6, and i never ran into earlier issues i've had with the deck, which was running out of gas and not having a clock. I havent played this deck in a while, but i remember sometimes Inquisitioning a bunch of times, killing their creatures, and playing Jaces, only to then fizzle out without any way to close the game in a reasonable time.
Some highlights were, I brought in Olivia on the play in game 3 against Jund because she survives against Inquisition and Abrubt Decay, but thought for sure she would just be bolt bait or die to Terminate, but instead she completely took the game over and won single-handedly by pinging a Bob and then beating down while he couldnt do anything. In game 1 against my Zoo opponent (i had no idea what deck he was on), i kept my opener of Jace x2, Thoughtscour, and 4 lands only to Scour into another land, draw more lands each turn, and both my Jace's were Path to Exiled. At one point, i think i had 5 lands in play and 5 lands in hand on turn 3... but luckily he kept a 1 lander and was stuck on that until like turn 6. I was getting beat down by a Wild Nact'l though, so it took some good draws to actually get out of that.
Fun deck, good times.
EDIT: Adding deck list, due to paywall premium link:
Nice, i was running pretty good online for a while, but it suddenly went real cold. I had to switch decks for a few leagues, just to not feel like this was a pile of trash. Weird how it goes in cycles, even with Serum Visions, this is very much a goldfish all-in deck that needs things to work out very well in the early game, in my experience with it. I'm wondering if 4 Monkeys is 1 too many. I know i want one every game, but i dont need 3 all that often, unless i'm drawing lots of Scours..
Nice, thanks, i've been looking forward to the part 2 of that tournament write-up.
Yeah, your sideboard plans are much better than what i was doing against Fish, much of this format is board plans, of course.
Luckily, this deck rewards people who know the format (what to counter and what you can beat, specifically) and I play a sh|t ton online and know the other decks very well. So, the results for me with RUG Delver keep getting better and better the more i play with it. Like i said, fun deck, and right up my play style alley, good work.
I wish there was a big Modern tournament coming up, but i'll have to wait until next month when I happen to be visiting people in Columbus during the SCG Open weekend and i plan to play that Sunday for the Modern IQ. In the meantime, that leaves plenty of time to grind online.
Been jamming some more. Went 3-2 in my latest completed league and am 3-1 in a current one, with one game to go, but i was too tired last night to finish up.
I'm very much enjoying the true tempo of this deck. It is everything i wished Grixis Delver was, in the regards that in G Delver i felt like every time i tapped out to lay down a threat i had to hold my nuts and hope it wouldn't get removed. This is a real Delver deck and Shoal has the perfect home in it. What a great card, i dont mind 2 for 1'ing myself in the least to protect whatever threat. It has also been useful for turn 1 amulets or aether vials on the draw.
Strangely, i dont think i've dropped a match to Jund out of 4 or 5 matches i've played. It feels like their turn 2 play gets bolted, Liliana gets Stubbed, and eveything else is steamrolled by Delvers and Monkeys. I suppose they havnt had the perfect curve of Discard, discard, Lili yet, or discard, discard, goyf against me.
The one matchup i cant beat is Merfolk. It seems every deck i play sucks to fish. If they stick a vial it is definitely game over, but even without it they simply hit too hard with islandwalk. In spite the fact that I have 5 'bolts' (4 bolts, 1 tarfire) in my main deck and 2 pyroclasms in the side. All your counter spells are useless since they have vial and cavern of souls, and your threats just get bounced by Harbingers. I dont know why the latest stats show Merfolk as dropping down to tier 2, it always gives me trouble.
I think Huntmaster is pretty good for what you are looking for, but 3+ is way too many. I've also def had multiple dead in my hand due to mana issues. I'm only running 2 in the side, and one Clique, and that has been adequate enough when i want to bring in the 'heavy hitter' package. Keep in mind that P&K have no way to turn on ferocious for your stubs.
Speaking of side slots, i'm trying to find room for Rending Volley's and Crumble to Dust, but am having a hard time. Do you think the tron matchup is good enough as it is since the deck is fairly quick? Volleys are a must, i know the Twin matchup is pretty good, since Simic Charm is decent against it, but any self respecting Twin player just goes off on turn 5 with dispel backup. Volley can also be good vs Smiters and Resto Angels.
I starting tinkering with this deck last night and had about 50/50 results while getting my feet wet. I won a 2 man (in which the Twin player raged at me that Simic Charm is "garbage jank", then went 2-3 in a league , then went 2-1 in 3 more 2 man queues. I ran the following:
I thought this seemed pretty balanced and the deck ran great at times. I def punted some games, though, so practice will be needed. I was surprised at the amount of games i got there with a mull to 6, but that is what tempo does. My opponents would frequently die with a fist full of cards they couldnt cast in time. I feel like i want to protect my turn 1 Delver or turn 2 Goyf better, so adding the 4th Shoal is a must, but i'm at a loss as to what to cut. Charm is great, but maybe it can be a two of. I feel like Bolt-Snap-Bolt mid game is just too good in this format and much more important than a +3/+3 pump, so I dont want to go down on Snaps, even if having one in your opener is not ideal.
Manaleak also under performed for me, but it was a good pitch to Shoal, it could possible be a two of. I kept wishing i had a 3 drop to pitch to Shoal, but i'm not sure if a 17 land deck can support a main deck Clique. One of my losses was to Twin who was able to fog me for a million turns in a row by playing Exarchs/Pestermites every turn before combat until they found the combo. A matchup that should be good felt awful after the 4th Exarch that i couldnt do anything about.
17 lands felt fine most of the time, but i wouldnt mind cutting a Probe for an 18th. However, then you have less Shoal fodder. But, with 18, then maybe I would feel better supporting Clique. Twelve can trips is a lot and I think Probe would be the first one I go down on.
Interesting deck, like someone mentioned, it feels amazing to churn out a turn 2 Goyf/Mandrills with Shoal backup for your opponents turn, and then Stub backup for turns after that. 'Protect the Queen' is a fun strategy and this deck has turn 4 kills. I'm not sure if its any better than other aggro strategies, but it a way of playing that I enjoy. Burn is probably the most efficient and streamlined aggro deck, but I just dont like playing it.
I do think Shoals is really what sets the deck apart, and Simic Charm it seems. I love the idea of a 'real' tempo deck, however the transformation seems legit, too.
I've been reading Jordan Boisvert's old articles on Modern Nexus about the deck and it seems pretty spot on, still, in the meta nowadays. I'm willing to bet the lack of play the deck sees is due to cost and/or playstyle, but I think it should be well positioned. Its surprising he thinks the deck is weak vs Zoo, though, since Mandrils tramples over everything they can play (except goyf) and Delver flies over it all. Maybe in a pure race, those two just arent enough, though.
A lot of lists that are placing lately seem to be moving away from Shoals, which to me, makes it much more like a Grixis Delver list, except with Goyfs over Peezy, and Mandrils over Tasigur. Are those changes enough to make this deck significantly better than G. Delver? K Command is a pretty good card to give mid-game staying power...
How are your decks running lately? I'm interested in moving away from G. Delver to Monkey Grow, but i'm not convinced it is worth it. Granted, it isnt this threads job to convince me, but there has to be some reason as to why you run this deck over G. Delver, right?
ever managed to cast a rakdos charm after twin combo'ing ? not going to happen.
I agree with this. If you are leaving open two mana, Twin will not try and combo and instead wait a turn to combo with dispel backup. Are they afraid of Rakdos Charm? **** no, they think you are holding up counter magic or Terminate, and guess what, Dispel hits counter magic, removal, and your stupid charm.
How do you guys feel about Liliana, Heretical Healer in the side? Seems like she could help get us cards in the graveyard, as well as Delvers and Snapcasters back for some good value. She also has lifelink, so if she doesn't flip, she at least helps mitigate some of the early life loss we take. She also works well with Sidisi's Faithful, who might have a place in a rogue version of the deck.
She is double black, that is not what you want, ever.
I nearly snorted my water all over my keyboard when i just read a few people comment that Spell Snare is good against Tron. I hope they were being sarcastic and trolling newbs, that card is terrible, side it out immediately against Tron. Keep in your Spell Pierce, though... you can mess up their whole game by hitting a can trip rock or Ancient Stirrings right off the bat.
I always get hype for a new rotation, forgetting that Wizards wants Standard to be nothing but fat ass creatures or risky combo decks. Rally is a great deck, it plays terrible creatures that work well together to create something better... only you dont even get a decent can trip to make it work relatively consistent. Tempo decks dont even get a cheap efficient counter spell or burn spell. Actually, let me take that back, tempo decks dont exist in Standard , because a 'tempo' of one drop, two drop, three drop is better than any spell tempo you can put together.
My last 4 or 5 Standard matches online have been against Warrior Aggro, Abzan Aggro, Temur Black Aggro, and then a lot of red decks. Been real fun...
Yeah eh is a turn 3 play in Legacy because of Force of Will and like the guy above said, he is a house in Legacy because of other 0 cost spells. In standard he is a turn 4/5 play, which isnt terrible, but then he is facing off against Rhino's.
Even still, i love the card and am trying to play him in a Jeskai Doom shell instead of Mantis Riders. He is much better now that Bile Blight rotated. Too little too late, though.
Yeah man, just run it out, thats what they are there for, low curve plays that are also viable late game if you top deck one on turn 6+. If it isnt answered you are in great shape. This current Standard cant really punish you for being proactive.
Jeskai is tough, they have so much recursion for Jace that they can definitely out grind you, especially because this decks finisher is pretty crappy against them. I think the best way to finish is to steal a Mantis Rider or Tasigur with Dragonlord Silumgar, which allows you to sac their Rider/Tas if they Crack Doom you.
If you have sideboard room, adding one or two Secure the Wastes is a fantastic finisher, too. I know you cant cut all your dragons, because you want Scorn to be 'online' but Ojutai is pretty bad against never ending Crack Dooms from never ending Jace's...
I takes them a while to grind you, though, which makes a case for Mastery of the Unseen being a decent sideboard card, too?
I played the Gerry T. list (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32088_Video-Grixis-Control-In-Modern.html), but made some small tweaks to the main and sideboard:
MAIN
+1 Snapcaster
-1 K Command
+1 Spell Snare
-1 Manaleak
SIDEBOARD
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spellskite
+1 Olivia Voldaren
+1 Damnation
+1 Painful Truths
-1 Countersquall
-1 Tribute to Hunger
-1 Radiant Flames
-2 Vandalblast
-2 Bitterblossom
I ended up beating Grishoalbrand in two games by discarding all his reanimate spells, Scapeshift in 3 games by getting lucky in our game 3 top deck war, Jund in 3 games, then Naya Zoo in 2 games. The deck felt great, even on like 4 or 5 mulls to 6, and i never ran into earlier issues i've had with the deck, which was running out of gas and not having a clock. I havent played this deck in a while, but i remember sometimes Inquisitioning a bunch of times, killing their creatures, and playing Jaces, only to then fizzle out without any way to close the game in a reasonable time.
Some highlights were, I brought in Olivia on the play in game 3 against Jund because she survives against Inquisition and Abrubt Decay, but thought for sure she would just be bolt bait or die to Terminate, but instead she completely took the game over and won single-handedly by pinging a Bob and then beating down while he couldnt do anything. In game 1 against my Zoo opponent (i had no idea what deck he was on), i kept my opener of Jace x2, Thoughtscour, and 4 lands only to Scour into another land, draw more lands each turn, and both my Jace's were Path to Exiled. At one point, i think i had 5 lands in play and 5 lands in hand on turn 3... but luckily he kept a 1 lander and was stuck on that until like turn 6. I was getting beat down by a Wild Nact'l though, so it took some good draws to actually get out of that.
Fun deck, good times.
EDIT: Adding deck list, due to paywall premium link:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Snare
1 Murderous Cut
3 Terminate
3 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Dispel
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spellskite
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Damnation
1 Painful Truths
Yeah, your sideboard plans are much better than what i was doing against Fish, much of this format is board plans, of course.
Luckily, this deck rewards people who know the format (what to counter and what you can beat, specifically) and I play a sh|t ton online and know the other decks very well. So, the results for me with RUG Delver keep getting better and better the more i play with it. Like i said, fun deck, and right up my play style alley, good work.
I wish there was a big Modern tournament coming up, but i'll have to wait until next month when I happen to be visiting people in Columbus during the SCG Open weekend and i plan to play that Sunday for the Modern IQ. In the meantime, that leaves plenty of time to grind online.
I'm very much enjoying the true tempo of this deck. It is everything i wished Grixis Delver was, in the regards that in G Delver i felt like every time i tapped out to lay down a threat i had to hold my nuts and hope it wouldn't get removed. This is a real Delver deck and Shoal has the perfect home in it. What a great card, i dont mind 2 for 1'ing myself in the least to protect whatever threat. It has also been useful for turn 1 amulets or aether vials on the draw.
Strangely, i dont think i've dropped a match to Jund out of 4 or 5 matches i've played. It feels like their turn 2 play gets bolted, Liliana gets Stubbed, and eveything else is steamrolled by Delvers and Monkeys. I suppose they havnt had the perfect curve of Discard, discard, Lili yet, or discard, discard, goyf against me.
The one matchup i cant beat is Merfolk. It seems every deck i play sucks to fish. If they stick a vial it is definitely game over, but even without it they simply hit too hard with islandwalk. In spite the fact that I have 5 'bolts' (4 bolts, 1 tarfire) in my main deck and 2 pyroclasms in the side. All your counter spells are useless since they have vial and cavern of souls, and your threats just get bounced by Harbingers. I dont know why the latest stats show Merfolk as dropping down to tier 2, it always gives me trouble.
Speaking of side slots, i'm trying to find room for Rending Volley's and Crumble to Dust, but am having a hard time. Do you think the tron matchup is good enough as it is since the deck is fairly quick? Volleys are a must, i know the Twin matchup is pretty good, since Simic Charm is decent against it, but any self respecting Twin player just goes off on turn 5 with dispel backup. Volley can also be good vs Smiters and Resto Angels.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrils
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtscour
3 Manaleak
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Simic Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
17 Land (the usual)
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Blood Moon
3 Feed the Clan (i hate losing to Burn)
I thought this seemed pretty balanced and the deck ran great at times. I def punted some games, though, so practice will be needed. I was surprised at the amount of games i got there with a mull to 6, but that is what tempo does. My opponents would frequently die with a fist full of cards they couldnt cast in time. I feel like i want to protect my turn 1 Delver or turn 2 Goyf better, so adding the 4th Shoal is a must, but i'm at a loss as to what to cut. Charm is great, but maybe it can be a two of. I feel like Bolt-Snap-Bolt mid game is just too good in this format and much more important than a +3/+3 pump, so I dont want to go down on Snaps, even if having one in your opener is not ideal.
Manaleak also under performed for me, but it was a good pitch to Shoal, it could possible be a two of. I kept wishing i had a 3 drop to pitch to Shoal, but i'm not sure if a 17 land deck can support a main deck Clique. One of my losses was to Twin who was able to fog me for a million turns in a row by playing Exarchs/Pestermites every turn before combat until they found the combo. A matchup that should be good felt awful after the 4th Exarch that i couldnt do anything about.
17 lands felt fine most of the time, but i wouldnt mind cutting a Probe for an 18th. However, then you have less Shoal fodder. But, with 18, then maybe I would feel better supporting Clique. Twelve can trips is a lot and I think Probe would be the first one I go down on.
Interesting deck, like someone mentioned, it feels amazing to churn out a turn 2 Goyf/Mandrills with Shoal backup for your opponents turn, and then Stub backup for turns after that. 'Protect the Queen' is a fun strategy and this deck has turn 4 kills. I'm not sure if its any better than other aggro strategies, but it a way of playing that I enjoy. Burn is probably the most efficient and streamlined aggro deck, but I just dont like playing it.
I've been reading Jordan Boisvert's old articles on Modern Nexus about the deck and it seems pretty spot on, still, in the meta nowadays. I'm willing to bet the lack of play the deck sees is due to cost and/or playstyle, but I think it should be well positioned. Its surprising he thinks the deck is weak vs Zoo, though, since Mandrils tramples over everything they can play (except goyf) and Delver flies over it all. Maybe in a pure race, those two just arent enough, though.
How are your decks running lately? I'm interested in moving away from G. Delver to Monkey Grow, but i'm not convinced it is worth it. Granted, it isnt this threads job to convince me, but there has to be some reason as to why you run this deck over G. Delver, right?
I agree with this. If you are leaving open two mana, Twin will not try and combo and instead wait a turn to combo with dispel backup. Are they afraid of Rakdos Charm? **** no, they think you are holding up counter magic or Terminate, and guess what, Dispel hits counter magic, removal, and your stupid charm.
She is double black, that is not what you want, ever.
My last 4 or 5 Standard matches online have been against Warrior Aggro, Abzan Aggro, Temur Black Aggro, and then a lot of red decks. Been real fun...
Even still, i love the card and am trying to play him in a Jeskai Doom shell instead of Mantis Riders. He is much better now that Bile Blight rotated. Too little too late, though.
If you have sideboard room, adding one or two Secure the Wastes is a fantastic finisher, too. I know you cant cut all your dragons, because you want Scorn to be 'online' but Ojutai is pretty bad against never ending Crack Dooms from never ending Jace's...
I takes them a while to grind you, though, which makes a case for Mastery of the Unseen being a decent sideboard card, too?