I dont understand how a person who's meta is not representative of the meta as a whole can begin to argue anything about the oppressiveness of Abzan. When the top 32 decks at a large GP end up 40% Abzan, even after the deck was on everyone's radar as the deck to aim at, then clearly there isnt much you can do to metagame against it.
I think when the new set came out, everyone wanted to believe Abzan wasnt as powerful as it used to be, but clearly we were all fooling ourselves.
Again, latest tourney results prove otherwise - this week's GP Top 8 featured 1 abzan deck in 7th place. Abzan is being phased out of the meta by its natural predator - GR eldrazi.
I think i read somewhere that Abzan was around 30% of the day 2 meta at the latest GP, which is much more indicative of its strength as opposed to how many copies were in the top 8. 30% is absurd.
One downside to Ojutai's Command is it opens you up to get tempo'd on turn 4. You'd rather play Jace and hold up an Ultimate Price or Silumgar's Scorn, that way you're not behind on board state when you drop Dragonlord Ojutai.
Does it? i'm dropping Jace on turn 2 and dealing with whatever they play later. Maybe i'm running it wrong... you sandbag Jace until you can protect it? That seems incredibly conservative. If you play a turn 2 Jace, yhey will either kill Jace (no big deal, its a legendary 4 of in this deck) or play a 2 drop, which isnt a big deal to kill later either. In fact, if they kill Jace, then on the turn 4 you can counter/regrow, which is amazing.
This deck looks pretty well positioned when there are a million Abzan aggro players. It might finally be the Jace deck i've been looking for. I feel as if my Jeskai has been getting trounced by Abzan lately and I need a way to fight back... without buying 4 Gideons and just joining the dark side.
I saw it do well this weekend at the GP and built it online to test. Some randome thoughts:
- Jace is at his best with discard. The amount of games that turn into a blowout after you go Duress, flip Jace, Duress is absurd.
- I like a lot of one-of's, contrary to someone who posted here that they dont. I think with a Dig deck, you get the luxury of one-of options.
- Dig is broken, and this is probably the best Dig deck out there, although I am trying to run only 3 and a Painful Truths as opposed to 4. With 4, i feel like you give up too many games where your opener has 2 Digs and you dont get there to be able to cast them both. Three feels right to still be able to chain Digs.
- Its surprising to see the winning list only running one sweeper main, but it seems to be doing just fine in testing.
- Ojutai's Command can just be so good, I feel like its worth it to run a one-of. Besides simplyu Digging for 2 mana, bringing back a Jace and countering a creature is just about the best thing you can do in this Standard.
I'mm probably jam this deck in paper this weekend at an SCG IQ and hope it lives up to its results.
"So even though it's easy to pinpoint the problem, it's somewhat difficult to solve it. I could sit here all day and talk about how Roast and Valorous Stance can kill all of the creature-based threats from Abzan Aggro, but that won't solve the problem of Den Protector and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. These spells prohibit any deck from jamming as many removal spells in their deck for the matchup as possible and calling it a day. So how can you beat Abzan Aggro?
Seriously, I don't know. How do you beat this deck?
Well for starters you can join them."
Thats a gross answer for those of use who cant stand to think about playing this deck. I dont know why people dont listen to me more, i'm pretty much always right when it comes to a game i've played for 20 years.
After all the initial brewing, we are simply right back at the beginning from a year ago. Jeskai gets a new goodie with Jace and Abzan gets Gideon. All the rotation did was make these decks stronger and even harder to kill Anafenza and Rhino.
Who couldnt have foreseen an overpowered wedge block dominating this format for as long as it is legal? I was lucky enough to get Jace's from Origina while they were cheap, and I still hate this format.
If Abzan curves out you simply cant win. Turn 1 Tree guy, into level up the Tree guy, into Anafena, into Rhino is like a normal draw for this deck and you cant do anything about it.
Lol, right, that is just what Abzan needs. Doom Blade doesnt kill Anafenza or Seige Rhino and that is the deck that needs policing right now, not Jace.
4-1-1 in swiss beating Twin, 8rack, Melira combo, and storm. Lost to affinity.
Played kiki-chord in top 8. Crushed him game 1 and then got stopped cold g2 and g3 by turn 3 ghostly prison. My only answer was a single echoing truth but i never saw it. Personal record of 21 elemental tokens and nothing to do with them.
Brutal. GP is a card... and a super annoying one. Echoing Truth is a good answer, just badluck you never saw it if the game grinded on forever.
After lots of online jamming and a kind of terrible 3-3-0 drop SCG IQ experience (which i was worried about, considering my MODO testing started to go south in a hurry), i'm doing a complete 180 and I think Vryn Twin is terrible compared to the Jace-less version. Many traditional Grixis Twin decks did just fine at the SCG IQ i played in and i kept wishing i was on that deck.
Online and live, you lose a lot of games in between when you IoK someone and when you try to twin off. Its def easier, and better, to protect the combo through counter magic, as opposed to discard. I came to a lot of board stalls with Vryn Twin where i was finished firing off my discard and needed a combo piece to win. Jace is a terrible beater, so the combo is virtually the only way to go since you lack cards like Clique and (probably) Pestermites. Board stalls with the traditional version are great, because you are just drawing and countering anyways.
Random Thoughts:
-Pia and Kirin Nalaar is a great card.
-In grindy matchups where you dont care about life (which is basically vs anything besides Zoo, Afinity, and Burn) i'm finding Painful Truths to be ridiculously good. Why has this card not been promoted more? Any draw 3 deserves a look and this one is insane most of the time, you always get way ahead with a 3 mana draw 3, pass, and can probably still leave counter magic up.
-Jace just might not be playable in Modern.
Engineered Explosives is just about the only way Grixis colors can deal with an enchantment, but it also hoses tokens and is a good general answer to stuff.
Testing the Battlelands has been interesting and I think the jury is still out. It makes sequencing your early lands a little harder, but the upside is real. I dont know why you think you need more than 4 basics, though. Considering we play up to 9 or 10 fetches, i am very frequently getting basic island and basic mountain/swamp from my fetches to start a game and I am usually using that mana for IoQ, Serums, Bolts, or baby Jace, so i'm not usually fetching a basic for no reason. I agree that checklands are probably better, if you have them in hand, but the ability to fetch for a dual that comes into play untapped and doesnt hurt you is fantastic (hello Legacy!). I've already modified the mana base that I posted earlier a little bit by -1 Creeping Tar Pit (seems not necessary in this deck) and +1 Blackcleave Cliffs. A strange mix of shocks, battles, fetches, fast, and check lands, for sure, but i like how it is running so far. This could change, though.
Vryn Twin is worth testing out, also, if you have the cards or the cash. A curve of turn 1 IoQ, turn 2 Jace, turn 3 Bolt their threat (or Visions), loot, flash back IoQ happens a lot. You only need 2 fecthes to do it and youre in a dominating position. The only thing that isnt instant speed is the discard, which you get massive use out of and is cheap. I definietly go as far as to say discard is better in this format than too many counterspells, which are all conditional. I cant count the amount of times i've died with worthless Spell Snares in my hand when an IoQ would have been much better.
To each their own playstyle, though. I really like tempo decks and Vryn Twin is certainly not. But, i also like value and twinning off, which i feel like i've been doing much more consistently with this version. With 7 creatures that can flash back a spell, i feel likle i'm looking at a ton of cards (Serum Visions), getting the cards i want more consistently, and noticing that my opponents have 0-2 cards in hand far more often. Plus, i have perfect information throughout the match.
Here is what i am currently testing and probably liking the most. I ditched the Tasigurs and simply hope to combo most games, but I have been winning with Snap/Bolts, Twin/Pia, and even Jace ultimate.
I'm torn on what to bring this weekend to an SCQ IQ. I love playing with baby Jace and Grixis, so I'm leaning toward that, but I am very underwhelmed by Tasigur. I find he hardly ever finishes a game for me and his "draw" spell is very weak in Modern. Your opponent is usually able to give you back something useless, in this format, or something that can easily be played around. I've found in Standard his ability is much much better.
I'm trying to develop a version that is full combo (6 enablers, 4 twins) with discard and without Tasigur. However, i cant think of another efficient beater. Clique requires double blue, which I'm trying to avoid stressing out my mana base, so maybe Tas is still the default best card. Delve IS busted. However, if i play Tas, then i think the combo needs to go down to 4/3. Ugh, decisions, decisions.
PS, so glad i got 3 of my Jace's at $25 and the 4th at $35..
For my version of Grixis Twin (with baby Jace) I've been messing with this mana base, and really like it:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Pulluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
----
23 Total
----
16 Black Sources
16 Red Sources
20 Blue Sources
----
9 Fetches
10 Fetch'ables
I think in a deck like Twin, you can incorporate the new Battle lands. I'm taking a lot less damage which is pretty crucial to buy a turn or two when you are trying to combo. Of course, you get openers like Sunken Hollow, swamp, sometimes while your only one drop is a Serum Visions, but i've found that the small loss of tempo usually doesnt affect anything when all is said and done. If i lost, or won, the match, it was usually never due to a turn 1 tap land, that I could tell.
The power creep in Standard was getting out of control, i'm glad the new set is scaling power back, but yes, it puts the format in a weird state where you have a too powerful set mixed in with a step back. It will take some time to work itself out, but I'm still having fun with it.
Power creep in Standard? Were we even playing the same format? Standard where your aggressive plays are a 2 mana 1/1 on turn 2, or where playing 2/2's with no abilities for 3 mana is the norm? Standard is not and was not powerful. Removal and card draw were drastically watered down in order to accommodate 3 blocks now worth of themes with Heroic, Morphs, and now Eldrazi. Get back to me when Ultimate Price is a good card in a format and at common, or where we're playing real removal and not something ridiculous like Hero's Downfall... 3 mana removal spells do not make for a powerful format.
Haha, yeah, i guess we were playing a different format, because i think the last few years of sets have been pretty insane. Off the top of my head, here are the cards that see play in eternal formats:
Treasure Cruise - subsequently got banned
Dig Through Time - subsequently got banned
Monastery Swiftspear
Monastery Mentor
Sylvan Caryatid
Keranos, God of Storms
Fetchlands
Jeskai Ascendancy
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Thoughtseize
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Courser of Kruphix
Master of Waves
Siege Rhino - lets not forget, Siege Rhino broke Modern and pod had to be banned
Tasigur, The Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler
Atarka's Command
Kolaghan's Command
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Ensoul Artifact
Hangarback Walker
I feel like there has been more shakeup in eternal formats than any other couple year stretch of cards i've seen in a long time. Within its own format, Standard has been pretty powerful with the Gods and 3 color clans.
I think it was Todd Anderson who said it best when he said, "Standard used to feel like a game of wits among gentlemen, while now it feels like two kids slugging each other over the head with socks full of nickels."
I think when the new set came out, everyone wanted to believe Abzan wasnt as powerful as it used to be, but clearly we were all fooling ourselves.
I think i read somewhere that Abzan was around 30% of the day 2 meta at the latest GP, which is much more indicative of its strength as opposed to how many copies were in the top 8. 30% is absurd.
Does it? i'm dropping Jace on turn 2 and dealing with whatever they play later. Maybe i'm running it wrong... you sandbag Jace until you can protect it? That seems incredibly conservative. If you play a turn 2 Jace, yhey will either kill Jace (no big deal, its a legendary 4 of in this deck) or play a 2 drop, which isnt a big deal to kill later either. In fact, if they kill Jace, then on the turn 4 you can counter/regrow, which is amazing.
I saw it do well this weekend at the GP and built it online to test. Some randome thoughts:
- Jace is at his best with discard. The amount of games that turn into a blowout after you go Duress, flip Jace, Duress is absurd.
- I like a lot of one-of's, contrary to someone who posted here that they dont. I think with a Dig deck, you get the luxury of one-of options.
- Dig is broken, and this is probably the best Dig deck out there, although I am trying to run only 3 and a Painful Truths as opposed to 4. With 4, i feel like you give up too many games where your opener has 2 Digs and you dont get there to be able to cast them both. Three feels right to still be able to chain Digs.
- Its surprising to see the winning list only running one sweeper main, but it seems to be doing just fine in testing.
- Ojutai's Command can just be so good, I feel like its worth it to run a one-of. Besides simplyu Digging for 2 mana, bringing back a Jace and countering a creature is just about the best thing you can do in this Standard.
I'mm probably jam this deck in paper this weekend at an SCG IQ and hope it lives up to its results.
"So even though it's easy to pinpoint the problem, it's somewhat difficult to solve it. I could sit here all day and talk about how Roast and Valorous Stance can kill all of the creature-based threats from Abzan Aggro, but that won't solve the problem of Den Protector and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. These spells prohibit any deck from jamming as many removal spells in their deck for the matchup as possible and calling it a day. So how can you beat Abzan Aggro?
Seriously, I don't know. How do you beat this deck?
Well for starters you can join them."
Thats a gross answer for those of use who cant stand to think about playing this deck. I dont know why people dont listen to me more, i'm pretty much always right when it comes to a game i've played for 20 years.
After all the initial brewing, we are simply right back at the beginning from a year ago. Jeskai gets a new goodie with Jace and Abzan gets Gideon. All the rotation did was make these decks stronger and even harder to kill Anafenza and Rhino.
Who couldnt have foreseen an overpowered wedge block dominating this format for as long as it is legal? I was lucky enough to get Jace's from Origina while they were cheap, and I still hate this format.
If Abzan curves out you simply cant win. Turn 1 Tree guy, into level up the Tree guy, into Anafena, into Rhino is like a normal draw for this deck and you cant do anything about it.
Horribly Awry? Lol, yeah it is.
Lol, right, that is just what Abzan needs. Doom Blade doesnt kill Anafenza or Seige Rhino and that is the deck that needs policing right now, not Jace.
Brutal. GP is a card... and a super annoying one. Echoing Truth is a good answer, just badluck you never saw it if the game grinded on forever.
Online and live, you lose a lot of games in between when you IoK someone and when you try to twin off. Its def easier, and better, to protect the combo through counter magic, as opposed to discard. I came to a lot of board stalls with Vryn Twin where i was finished firing off my discard and needed a combo piece to win. Jace is a terrible beater, so the combo is virtually the only way to go since you lack cards like Clique and (probably) Pestermites. Board stalls with the traditional version are great, because you are just drawing and countering anyways.
Random Thoughts:
-Pia and Kirin Nalaar is a great card.
-In grindy matchups where you dont care about life (which is basically vs anything besides Zoo, Afinity, and Burn) i'm finding Painful Truths to be ridiculously good. Why has this card not been promoted more? Any draw 3 deserves a look and this one is insane most of the time, you always get way ahead with a 3 mana draw 3, pass, and can probably still leave counter magic up.
-Jace just might not be playable in Modern.
Vryn Twin is worth testing out, also, if you have the cards or the cash. A curve of turn 1 IoQ, turn 2 Jace, turn 3 Bolt their threat (or Visions), loot, flash back IoQ happens a lot. You only need 2 fecthes to do it and youre in a dominating position. The only thing that isnt instant speed is the discard, which you get massive use out of and is cheap. I definietly go as far as to say discard is better in this format than too many counterspells, which are all conditional. I cant count the amount of times i've died with worthless Spell Snares in my hand when an IoQ would have been much better.
To each their own playstyle, though. I really like tempo decks and Vryn Twin is certainly not. But, i also like value and twinning off, which i feel like i've been doing much more consistently with this version. With 7 creatures that can flash back a spell, i feel likle i'm looking at a ton of cards (Serum Visions), getting the cards i want more consistently, and noticing that my opponents have 0-2 cards in hand far more often. Plus, i have perfect information throughout the match.
Here is what i am currently testing and probably liking the most. I ditched the Tasigurs and simply hope to combo most games, but I have been winning with Snap/Bolts, Twin/Pia, and even Jace ultimate.
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deceiver Exarch
1 Pestermite
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Dispel
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
3 Remand
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Splinter Twin
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Pulluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Watrery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
2 Spellskite
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grave Titan
I'm trying to develop a version that is full combo (6 enablers, 4 twins) with discard and without Tasigur. However, i cant think of another efficient beater. Clique requires double blue, which I'm trying to avoid stressing out my mana base, so maybe Tas is still the default best card. Delve IS busted. However, if i play Tas, then i think the combo needs to go down to 4/3. Ugh, decisions, decisions.
PS, so glad i got 3 of my Jace's at $25 and the 4th at $35..
1 Blood Crypt
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Pulluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
----
23 Total
----
16 Black Sources
16 Red Sources
20 Blue Sources
----
9 Fetches
10 Fetch'ables
I think in a deck like Twin, you can incorporate the new Battle lands. I'm taking a lot less damage which is pretty crucial to buy a turn or two when you are trying to combo. Of course, you get openers like Sunken Hollow, swamp, sometimes while your only one drop is a Serum Visions, but i've found that the small loss of tempo usually doesnt affect anything when all is said and done. If i lost, or won, the match, it was usually never due to a turn 1 tap land, that I could tell.
Haha, yeah, i guess we were playing a different format, because i think the last few years of sets have been pretty insane. Off the top of my head, here are the cards that see play in eternal formats:
Treasure Cruise - subsequently got banned
Dig Through Time - subsequently got banned
Monastery Swiftspear
Monastery Mentor
Sylvan Caryatid
Keranos, God of Storms
Fetchlands
Jeskai Ascendancy
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Thoughtseize
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Courser of Kruphix
Master of Waves
Siege Rhino - lets not forget, Siege Rhino broke Modern and pod had to be banned
Tasigur, The Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler
Atarka's Command
Kolaghan's Command
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Ensoul Artifact
Hangarback Walker
I feel like there has been more shakeup in eternal formats than any other couple year stretch of cards i've seen in a long time. Within its own format, Standard has been pretty powerful with the Gods and 3 color clans.
I think it was Todd Anderson who said it best when he said, "Standard used to feel like a game of wits among gentlemen, while now it feels like two kids slugging each other over the head with socks full of nickels."