Looks like i'll be Bogle'ing this weekend at SCG States, i'll let you know how i do. It is a very tough meta to be a blue mage, and in spite all my testing with Jeskai, Grixis, or Blue Moon, i'm getting hammered by aggro and linear combo. Ancestral Vision is a great card, but sometimes it is simply too slow when youre dealing with a crap ton of Zoo, Burn, and Infect. The new Zoo, with BTE and Goblin Bushwacker is crazy good, but it is a fine matchup for Bogles if you get your lifelink.
So, my fallback is and always will be Bogles. I ran a league a minute ago and went 4-1, better than any of my Blue testing, that's for sure. This format is simply aggro, what can you do. I'm finding the influx of Thopter decks to not be that big of a deal for Bogles.
I do like running this deck in real life, though, so thats good. This deck isnt hard, per se, but there is some nuance to it and knowing of the meta, for sure. I'll gamble on taking an Arbor to the house, for example, against a lot of decks post board. Also, i live in Colorado, so i plan to get stinking high and Bogle'ing the ***** out of people. Big tournaments are tough for this deck, with variance. I have to hope for a good run.
Modern has turned into a linear aggro fest solely due to fetch/shocks (even before Eldrazi.dec). I'm not interested in seeing turn 1 Wild Nacatls and Kird Apes in Legacy.
Although, if they do implement another constructed format, it would be hard to not test it out. Legacy minus the reserved list would kill Legacy, no doubt, so it might be the only place to play.
So, my flex spots, in addition to the typical Thresh 54, for a while now have been 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt, and 2 Git Probe. Oddly, the card that has felt the worst is Pierce, it just very rarely is relevant without combining it with a Daze or in a counter war. It feels like 99% of the time i want to use it on a Swords to protect my threat, but they have enough mana that it is worthless. Dispel feels like it might be better in these situations and in counter wars.
I'm debating on trying out Tarfire over the Forked Bolts to grow Goyf easier to a 5/6 to get over Angler and Eldrazi. I like having 6 ways, or more, to take care of a turn 1 DRS, which Tarfire certainly fits, but then i miss out on that sweet sweet feeling you get when you Fork a couple elves, two Eldrazi Mimics, or a Pyromancer and token.
Also, i think i want to try 2 Dismember over Git Probe with the new influx of Eldrazi decks in Legacy in the online meta, or at least find room for 2 in board. Maybe that makes more sense since it is dead maindeck in a lot of matchups. At least a card like Fork Bolt/Tarfire can go to the face and Probe is never dead. I know people are hostle to Probe in this deck, but that info can be so good..
All in all, i think i'm running just above 50% online in 2 man matches in the last month or so, where i see a lot of Miracles, Shardless BUG, MUD, Sneak, other Delver varients, and Eldrazi. Thresh will always be a solid choice.
Eldrazi feels like a much better MUD, to me. I think MUD is easier to beat because even a 4/4 Endless One on turn 2 can race/kill you pretty easily. F Wizards for printing these ridiculous creatures, but i guess the real issue is the fact that all the old cards produce colorless mana. Who decided that was a good idea? The Eldrazi are not hard to cast at all. When this new 'color' was first announced, i assumed all the old cards would produce generic mana still, but i guess that is too reasonable.
Not too shabby, but yeah, those sound like the matchups that are bad for Bogles, so no surprises there. Burn can be a good matchup if you get a Coronet, so it basically comes down to that. LE and Infect are almost unwinnable.
On the second thought, I think he is also running away.
Looks to me that he is chasing the satur, because the angry looks.. but who knows
I assumed the little goat guy and the satyr were friends and running away, which, ironically, is completely the opposite of having unflinching courage! Shouldnt the little guys be standing up to the dinosaur? Why is there a dinosaur? Does the dino have unflinching courage? Of course he would, he is so much bigger then the goat and satyr! But, the satyr has a nipple piercing and holes in his cheek, so that is pretty badass. I've evaluated this picture far too much.
This meta is driving me crazy and I find myself falling back on Bogles because i dont know what else to play. No blue deck seems well positioned at all, and Bogles is solid but it has a pretty bad Infect matchup, at least in my experiences, and simply is gold fishing against the other aggro decks. Granted, they are goldfishing, too, so it appears that is just the kind of meta we are in.
On a totally different note, Mike Bierek has done some good art (Breeding Pool, Drana, Frost Titan, Niv Magus Elemental even), but Unflinching Courage is NOT one of them, lol. I have no idea what is going on here.
I'm thinking about using more creatures on the deck regard the aggro field now.
One the many positives about running this deck is that it blanks a lot of your opponents removal, giving them dead cards. If their opening 7 had two Terminates, they essentially just mulled to 5. Thats why you normally leave the creatures in the sideboard, so when they board out their removal, you can bring in some haymakers.
Granted, P&K and Huntmaster are multi-body, so they are harder to effectively remove, but even still, i think it is correct for them to be in the side.
Voidslime might be necessary. A buddy of mine and I run almost the same list, but he likes cards like Krosan Grip over Wear/Tear, Worldly Council over Anticipate, and Voidslime over Dispel. I prefer keeping things simple and consistent for now, for cheaper mana, until the meta forces me in that direction.
The only other change i've made is i took out one of the Timely's in the sideboard and added a simple Stone Rain. When making my sideboard notes, i noticed i was bringing in way too many cards for Burn/Aggro and not enough for Tron/Eldrazi. The extra land hate has been good, but i wonder if it shouldnt just be a second Crumble. As opposed to Voidslime, i'd rather be proactive and attack their lands, hoping to slow them down enough. Voidslime buys one turn exactly, because we still cant let Ulamog attack. If he mills some mountains that is crucial.
I tried out your list for the weekly LCS tournament, just with a Flooded Grove instead of a Mountain. Went 4-0 and here is how it went:...
Very nice. I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with this list, too, to the point that i feel very confident going into any matchup. In fact, i know it sounds elitist, but when my opponents opens with something stupid like turn 1 Wild Nac'tl, i just roll my eyes and know i'm going to destroy them by playing real magic with a real deck. The sequencing of this deck is very challenging and I enjoy it. Bloodmoon, and the white Leyline, are super annoying, but as long as you have an island and forest you can continue to play until you draw the Repeal to combo off. Typically, there is a SfT suspended or a Tribe Elder in play when Moon comes down, so you know you'll have some basics to get even more basics.
As far as the list, I also dropped down to 10 mountains, replacing the second basic Mountain with a Temple Garden to make white a little easier, because i decided to try the Verdict maindeck in replace of the Anger. I'd rather not draw the Verdict, but its been pretty good so far as a BtL target when i have multiple BtL's or BtL/Scape in hand. Stupid me, I just realized, that like Acid-Moss, Hunting Wilds is 'forest card' and not 'basic forest', so it is actually way better than Explosive Vegetation. I like the idea of possibly replacing that slot with a Farseek altogether, especially since i'm trying to run Verdict main, but, with Moss and Wilds in the deck, getting white off of the Temple Garden would now be much easier.
I liked 2 basic mountains to thwart multiple Ghost Quarters, but i suppose that is a fringe situation. As i'm sure most everyone here knows, one Ghost Quarter doesnt stop the combo at all. If they go for the Valakut, that doesnt matter, the triggers still fire off, and if they go for one of your Steam Vents/Stomping Grounds you can get a basic Mountain off of it and you still combo. When you Scape, never get the basic mountain if you can avoid it in the face of a Ghost Quarter.
I know my list has a lot of one-ofs, but i feel like this deck sees a lot of cards and they are all good. Between Remands, Cryptics, Repeal, Electrolyze, and Anticipate, it feels like every spell draws you a card, so you never miss a land drop and you get to what you need. I'm finding the 3/2 BtL/Scape split is perfect.
Huntmaster is the sideboard card of champions for me, too. He has taken over so many games, that i've lost count. In a neutral board situation in games 2/3 he is the perfect BtL target, and you opponent probably sided out any answers.
The Tron matchup is only rough if they cast Ulamog. I've fought through a Karn and Wurm before, but Ulamog put that deck on a different level. The same goes for Eldrazi, the deck is trash until they cast an Ulamog, then it is usually lights out for us.
The problem with Verdict, i play one in the side, is that I always seem to draw it and there is no way to get it back in your deck. I'll test out Verdict over Anger main board and see how i feel, but the card is virtually impossible to hard cast unless you make yourself work for it, which probably means you are slow on your Cryptic mana, or you are exposing your white to get Ghost Quartered/Tech Edged.
If its a turn 4 situation where you have 5 mana (with white) available and, say, your opponent has a Loxodon Smiter in play, i'm wondering if a maindeck Pia and Kirin isnt a better answer to stall, as opposed to Verdict. Yes, it turns on their removal, but they need a lot of removal to get through that wall. Plus, i dont mind getting Path'd or having a token suck up a bolt, for example. Buys you a few turns, saves you some damage, thats all i'm looking for in a situation like that where i feel like i'm winning, but need to deal with one annoyance while i continue to hit land drops.
I beat Abzan CoCo, Storm, and Naya Zoo, but lost to a Temur midrange deck that was playing Goyfs, Cliques, Pestermites, Knuckleblade, and a few Kiki Jiki. I felt like that should have been a good matchup, but a turn 2 Goyf is actually tough to handle, it killed me both games. I wasnt drawing any of my fogs (Tribe Elder) and had no way to kill the stupid thing, so the clock was real.
I'm starting to think there needs to be a good main deck target to BtL for 4 for. There were a few games where i would draw a BtL and a Scapeshift, and be slightly behind on board, like maybe they would have one creature out, but i would have no good target to stabilize maindeck. Pia and Kirin would be a good idea, or a maindeck Verdict maybe. Maindeck Mwonvuli is great vs Tron and Eldrazi, and if the board is clear, but not that good against beat down decks.
All in all the deck ran fantastic, but i think i had good matchups and didnt play anything really top tier.
I'm not doubting the aggressive meta, i'm doubting people's opinion that Scapeshift cant handle it. I feel very good about most of the aggro matches, except for probably Burn and Hatebears.
The latest change/test has been dropping a BtL to do a 3/2 split (BtL/Scape) and i added that Mwonvuli Acid-Moss. I've played about 8 online matches in the 2-man room with this config (which costs play points, so it isnt against complete jank, but not highly tuned lists like Leagues are) and have only lost to Hatebears out of those matches, so i'm on a pretty good streak. The other matches were Merfolk, Burn, Abzan CoCo, Tron x2, Mono-B Eldrazi, and then some wonky RW deck that played Resto Angel, but i never saw a Kiki, that literally had 0 chance to win.
Mwonvuli, and my pet card Explosive Vegetation, have done very well in the 4 slot. All our ramp goes to 4, so i'm not sure why some lists play Cultivate, which leads to an odd turn 3 when you have 4 mana available, but leaving one mana untapped doesnt help you at all. Either you want to leave up Remand/Anticipate or just use all your mana. Those games where i am able to suspend a search turn 1, Anticipate an Explosive Veg on turn 2, then play Exp Veg turn 3 gives me 7 mana on turn 4 and a chance to just win on the spot. I like Veg better than Hunting Wilds as it can get my plains, if i need it, to combo off BtL.
The sideboard is a work in progress. I feel like Stony is needed, but it obviously cant be BtL'd, which means it needs to be my opener to be effective, for the most part, and getting white turn 1/2/3 isnt exactly a given. It might have to go altogether. I've also seen lists with 3 or 4 Baloths, but that feels like way too many. Against Fish, i stuck a Huntmaster that completely took over the game and i could see it doing that again against most aggro.
PS, this deck STILL has the element of surprise and can generate free wins against people who have no idea what you are doing. The influx of new players really helps this deck. I'd shifted through terrible Ghost Quarter/Tech Edge play or people who think they can gain a few points of life and fine... then they take 32. Its absurd how many people dont understand how this decks combo actually works. Pre-mature scoops galore, too.
PPS, just crushed a Naya Chord deck, like Hooglands. I get giddy when i see Naya colors as I know they are a little slow to get their board going, weak to bolt, and cant counter anything. Its a cakewalk.
So, my fallback is and always will be Bogles. I ran a league a minute ago and went 4-1, better than any of my Blue testing, that's for sure. This format is simply aggro, what can you do. I'm finding the influx of Thopter decks to not be that big of a deal for Bogles.
I do like running this deck in real life, though, so thats good. This deck isnt hard, per se, but there is some nuance to it and knowing of the meta, for sure. I'll gamble on taking an Arbor to the house, for example, against a lot of decks post board. Also, i live in Colorado, so i plan to get stinking high and Bogle'ing the ***** out of people. Big tournaments are tough for this deck, with variance. I have to hope for a good run.
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Kor Spiritdancer
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Hyena Umbra
1 Open the Armory
3 Path to Exile
4 Rancor
4 Spider Umbra
1 Spirit Link
1 Keen Sense
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothill
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nature's Claim
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
Although, if they do implement another constructed format, it would be hard to not test it out. Legacy minus the reserved list would kill Legacy, no doubt, so it might be the only place to play.
So, my flex spots, in addition to the typical Thresh 54, for a while now have been 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt, and 2 Git Probe. Oddly, the card that has felt the worst is Pierce, it just very rarely is relevant without combining it with a Daze or in a counter war. It feels like 99% of the time i want to use it on a Swords to protect my threat, but they have enough mana that it is worthless. Dispel feels like it might be better in these situations and in counter wars.
I'm debating on trying out Tarfire over the Forked Bolts to grow Goyf easier to a 5/6 to get over Angler and Eldrazi. I like having 6 ways, or more, to take care of a turn 1 DRS, which Tarfire certainly fits, but then i miss out on that sweet sweet feeling you get when you Fork a couple elves, two Eldrazi Mimics, or a Pyromancer and token.
Also, i think i want to try 2 Dismember over Git Probe with the new influx of Eldrazi decks in Legacy in the online meta, or at least find room for 2 in board. Maybe that makes more sense since it is dead maindeck in a lot of matchups. At least a card like Fork Bolt/Tarfire can go to the face and Probe is never dead. I know people are hostle to Probe in this deck, but that info can be so good..
All in all, i think i'm running just above 50% online in 2 man matches in the last month or so, where i see a lot of Miracles, Shardless BUG, MUD, Sneak, other Delver varients, and Eldrazi. Thresh will always be a solid choice.
Eldrazi feels like a much better MUD, to me. I think MUD is easier to beat because even a 4/4 Endless One on turn 2 can race/kill you pretty easily. F Wizards for printing these ridiculous creatures, but i guess the real issue is the fact that all the old cards produce colorless mana. Who decided that was a good idea? The Eldrazi are not hard to cast at all. When this new 'color' was first announced, i assumed all the old cards would produce generic mana still, but i guess that is too reasonable.
I assumed the little goat guy and the satyr were friends and running away, which, ironically, is completely the opposite of having unflinching courage! Shouldnt the little guys be standing up to the dinosaur? Why is there a dinosaur? Does the dino have unflinching courage? Of course he would, he is so much bigger then the goat and satyr! But, the satyr has a nipple piercing and holes in his cheek, so that is pretty badass. I've evaluated this picture far too much.
On a totally different note, Mike Bierek has done some good art (Breeding Pool, Drana, Frost Titan, Niv Magus Elemental even), but Unflinching Courage is NOT one of them, lol. I have no idea what is going on here.
One the many positives about running this deck is that it blanks a lot of your opponents removal, giving them dead cards. If their opening 7 had two Terminates, they essentially just mulled to 5. Thats why you normally leave the creatures in the sideboard, so when they board out their removal, you can bring in some haymakers.
Granted, P&K and Huntmaster are multi-body, so they are harder to effectively remove, but even still, i think it is correct for them to be in the side.
The only other change i've made is i took out one of the Timely's in the sideboard and added a simple Stone Rain. When making my sideboard notes, i noticed i was bringing in way too many cards for Burn/Aggro and not enough for Tron/Eldrazi. The extra land hate has been good, but i wonder if it shouldnt just be a second Crumble. As opposed to Voidslime, i'd rather be proactive and attack their lands, hoping to slow them down enough. Voidslime buys one turn exactly, because we still cant let Ulamog attack. If he mills some mountains that is crucial.
Very nice. I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with this list, too, to the point that i feel very confident going into any matchup. In fact, i know it sounds elitist, but when my opponents opens with something stupid like turn 1 Wild Nac'tl, i just roll my eyes and know i'm going to destroy them by playing real magic with a real deck. The sequencing of this deck is very challenging and I enjoy it. Bloodmoon, and the white Leyline, are super annoying, but as long as you have an island and forest you can continue to play until you draw the Repeal to combo off. Typically, there is a SfT suspended or a Tribe Elder in play when Moon comes down, so you know you'll have some basics to get even more basics.
As far as the list, I also dropped down to 10 mountains, replacing the second basic Mountain with a Temple Garden to make white a little easier, because i decided to try the Verdict maindeck in replace of the Anger. I'd rather not draw the Verdict, but its been pretty good so far as a BtL target when i have multiple BtL's or BtL/Scape in hand. Stupid me, I just realized, that like Acid-Moss, Hunting Wilds is 'forest card' and not 'basic forest', so it is actually way better than Explosive Vegetation. I like the idea of possibly replacing that slot with a Farseek altogether, especially since i'm trying to run Verdict main, but, with Moss and Wilds in the deck, getting white off of the Temple Garden would now be much easier.
I liked 2 basic mountains to thwart multiple Ghost Quarters, but i suppose that is a fringe situation. As i'm sure most everyone here knows, one Ghost Quarter doesnt stop the combo at all. If they go for the Valakut, that doesnt matter, the triggers still fire off, and if they go for one of your Steam Vents/Stomping Grounds you can get a basic Mountain off of it and you still combo. When you Scape, never get the basic mountain if you can avoid it in the face of a Ghost Quarter.
I know my list has a lot of one-ofs, but i feel like this deck sees a lot of cards and they are all good. Between Remands, Cryptics, Repeal, Electrolyze, and Anticipate, it feels like every spell draws you a card, so you never miss a land drop and you get to what you need. I'm finding the 3/2 BtL/Scape split is perfect.
Huntmaster is the sideboard card of champions for me, too. He has taken over so many games, that i've lost count. In a neutral board situation in games 2/3 he is the perfect BtL target, and you opponent probably sided out any answers.
The Tron matchup is only rough if they cast Ulamog. I've fought through a Karn and Wurm before, but Ulamog put that deck on a different level. The same goes for Eldrazi, the deck is trash until they cast an Ulamog, then it is usually lights out for us.
If its a turn 4 situation where you have 5 mana (with white) available and, say, your opponent has a Loxodon Smiter in play, i'm wondering if a maindeck Pia and Kirin isnt a better answer to stall, as opposed to Verdict. Yes, it turns on their removal, but they need a lot of removal to get through that wall. Plus, i dont mind getting Path'd or having a token suck up a bolt, for example. Buys you a few turns, saves you some damage, thats all i'm looking for in a situation like that where i feel like i'm winning, but need to deal with one annoyance while i continue to hit land drops.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Repeal
1 Electrolyze
2 Anticipate
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
1 Izzet Charm
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Scapeshift
3 Bring to Light
2 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
1 Plains
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Negate
1 Spellskite
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Stone Rain
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Dispel
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
I beat Abzan CoCo, Storm, and Naya Zoo, but lost to a Temur midrange deck that was playing Goyfs, Cliques, Pestermites, Knuckleblade, and a few Kiki Jiki. I felt like that should have been a good matchup, but a turn 2 Goyf is actually tough to handle, it killed me both games. I wasnt drawing any of my fogs (Tribe Elder) and had no way to kill the stupid thing, so the clock was real.
I'm starting to think there needs to be a good main deck target to BtL for 4 for. There were a few games where i would draw a BtL and a Scapeshift, and be slightly behind on board, like maybe they would have one creature out, but i would have no good target to stabilize maindeck. Pia and Kirin would be a good idea, or a maindeck Verdict maybe. Maindeck Mwonvuli is great vs Tron and Eldrazi, and if the board is clear, but not that good against beat down decks.
All in all the deck ran fantastic, but i think i had good matchups and didnt play anything really top tier.
http://deck.tk/3T1I7IGE
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Repeal
1 Electrolyze
2 Anticipate
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
1 Izzet Charm
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Scapeshift
3 Bring to Light
2 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
1 Plains
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Negate
1 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Dispel
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
The latest change/test has been dropping a BtL to do a 3/2 split (BtL/Scape) and i added that Mwonvuli Acid-Moss. I've played about 8 online matches in the 2-man room with this config (which costs play points, so it isnt against complete jank, but not highly tuned lists like Leagues are) and have only lost to Hatebears out of those matches, so i'm on a pretty good streak. The other matches were Merfolk, Burn, Abzan CoCo, Tron x2, Mono-B Eldrazi, and then some wonky RW deck that played Resto Angel, but i never saw a Kiki, that literally had 0 chance to win.
Mwonvuli, and my pet card Explosive Vegetation, have done very well in the 4 slot. All our ramp goes to 4, so i'm not sure why some lists play Cultivate, which leads to an odd turn 3 when you have 4 mana available, but leaving one mana untapped doesnt help you at all. Either you want to leave up Remand/Anticipate or just use all your mana. Those games where i am able to suspend a search turn 1, Anticipate an Explosive Veg on turn 2, then play Exp Veg turn 3 gives me 7 mana on turn 4 and a chance to just win on the spot. I like Veg better than Hunting Wilds as it can get my plains, if i need it, to combo off BtL.
The sideboard is a work in progress. I feel like Stony is needed, but it obviously cant be BtL'd, which means it needs to be my opener to be effective, for the most part, and getting white turn 1/2/3 isnt exactly a given. It might have to go altogether. I've also seen lists with 3 or 4 Baloths, but that feels like way too many. Against Fish, i stuck a Huntmaster that completely took over the game and i could see it doing that again against most aggro.
PS, this deck STILL has the element of surprise and can generate free wins against people who have no idea what you are doing. The influx of new players really helps this deck. I'd shifted through terrible Ghost Quarter/Tech Edge play or people who think they can gain a few points of life and fine... then they take 32. Its absurd how many people dont understand how this decks combo actually works. Pre-mature scoops galore, too.
PPS, just crushed a Naya Chord deck, like Hooglands. I get giddy when i see Naya colors as I know they are a little slow to get their board going, weak to bolt, and cant counter anything. Its a cakewalk.