It's clear and it's great that they have been thinking about Modern (somewhat) when designing new cards.
My only grudge is that they are not looking at the innocuous cards still left on the ban list. If I were to start somewhere I'd try to narrow the ban list as much as possible and then try to sculpt the format introducing the really needed cards.
The way they are doing it, which could be considered valid by many, is through power creeping the format. This will make the cards currently played in the banlist unplayable when they actually decide to unban them...
Anyway #freePreordain
Agreed, Preordain looks pretty stupid being on the ban list right now
New to Legacy, I really like the idea of the lands decks. I love tutoring, love Life from the Loam, love 20/20 Indestructible creatures etc. Thing is I don't know which one to try out. 4color Loam, UB Depths, or Lands?
Honestly? I think the idea of decision-making having an impact is vastly overrated in the game in general. That's not "oh this decision matters" as much as "do I understand how my deck works and how his/her deck works?" Once you've played with a deck a lot, you know the decisions to make nine times outta ten.
I agree. The game is basically all about knowledge of the format. Even when playing a linear deck, you need to know the format. The only thing is, I think that because of the vast amount of decisions in Legacy, impactful or not, the feeling is better, whether is it exists objectively or not. Cheese exists so much more in Modern, imo, than any other format because of how good cheese cards can be. Just play 1 league on mtgo and its literally filled with "cute" cheesy cards all the time
I cannot write enough words to explain how and why I think this statement is wholly and completely wrong.
I'll try to explain why.
[...] if you udon't want to see opponent realizing potentian of his powerfull cards then just kill him before. Here comes t3 kill combo and aggro decks.
That's not unbans fault. Those strategies would be discovered anyway sooner or later.
Dredge would be the same deck even without BBE and Jace unbans, the same is true for Phoenix decks.
As long as unbans don't power up unfair strategies I can't understand why there shouldn't be.
Yeah, I can understand this position. But main question is what players really want? Nonlinear, interctive modern? Linear, interactive modern as it it's now?
If ppl want first, they have to push their desire and opinion bcs Wizards have testing team to reject potentially broken things and if something unexpected happens - ban it with banhammer tool. But as I see current modern's future - it's Legacy 2.0 with slow dying which is profitable for Wizards but not for players. (Standart and Arena reasons)
Legacy is only in the state that it is today b/c of the RL; support for the format would look a whole lot different if duals weren't so cost prohibitive. If Modern were to ever experience "slow dying", it'd be due to a lack of player interest and not due to a lack of availability of format staples. Let's stop this woe is me Modern is dying bull*****. Modern was supposedly dead when enemy fetches were pricing players out of playing certain decks, then it was supposed to be dead when WotC started reprinting too many format staples, dead after the banning of [pod, twin, etc], dead from eldrazi winter, and lest not forget, death at the hand of Frontier and its merry band of Siege Rhinos.
My opinion is that if it wasn't for the RL, more people would play Legacy.
Legacy is extremely punishing when it comes to in game decisions, but Modern is super punishing for things like deck choice and mulligan decisions, which is kinda feels bad.
One dude at my LGS said something like, if you had the ability to look at each player's top 10 cards, you can almost always predict who is going to win. I don't really think you can do that in Legacy. (Same could probably be said about Standard too)
It basically comes down to accessibility. New cards are easier to obtain, and people who play standard already have the cards to play with an eternal format. Its a whole snowball effect. More people with new cards want a format to play with, so they go to Modern. That means more tournaments are Modern, which in turn brings more people to the format.
I'm not trying to bash Modern by any means, I just think if we look at it through a complete competitive lense with no outside factors like card/tourney accessibility, I just personally think Legacy might be more popular.
Blue based Scapeshift hasn't been a thing for years. What makes it any better than Titanshift variants?
I'd say its better vs other combo decks than RG Shift. The reason is Remand, Bolt, and Cryptic to buy you time. You also have the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo to slow them down. With buying time with remand, you can also use your sideboard cards like Slaughter Games. The major problem with RG Titanshift is that its just slower than decks like Storm and KCI with minimal card draw so you basically just pray you hit a sideboard card like Relic or Damping Sphere or you lose. On top of that, BTL is basically a toolbox style deck with spells, so even if you aren't at 7 lands, you can use BTL to cast whatever you need for the moment.
Few problems with the deck includes similar weaknesses against aggro decks, but not as bad as RG Titanshift. The mana base is so hard, and you really need to meticulously plan out which lands you are going to use. Having Cryptic Command, Damnation, and Anger of the Gods in the same deck is not easy to use, but the idea is to really cast those cards using BTL rather than having them in your hand, which is why I said I think i kinda got unlucky since I kept drawing my single Damnation.
Another problem is that thier seondary gameplan just isnt that great. Platinum Emperion isn't always the best secondary gameplan, and fighting through a Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction on your Valakut/ Scapeshift is a lot harder. One thing people really don't understand about the RG Titanshift version is that it can have a decent game vs Blood Moon and doesn't rely on Valakut as much as one might first think.
I actually didn't play vs other Control decks, namly UW, but I imagine it's not that great. RG version traditionally is good vs them, and Platinum Emperion just loses to Path, so you basically have to win a counter war, which is probably not happening. I think the idea behind why it was good in the past was because you would have a lot more lands than your control opponent. However, with the format being much faster than it used to be, the deck isn't geared towards beating other control decks, imo, and RG version is just probably better in that regard. I think the MU used to be amazing back before Feld of Ruin but im not sure nowadays
Lastly, if felt a lot worse vs discard decks like Jund. Discard is usually not too bad in RG Titanshift because the whole deck is super redundant and most of the time your top decks are better than your Jund opponent. But with the BTL version it isn't the case, and your Remands kind of look silly vs Thoughtseize and IoK. I plan on playing it more for sure, and its super fun, I suggest you try it out. I was on the Black version, but I might buy the rest for the white version. Prismatic Omen can be really good especially since having your lands become Lightning Bolts in a control deck seems pretty sweet.
Rug Scaoeahift ha been putting up some numbers recently with currently 2 builds, black splash for better sideboard cards, and white splash for Wargate + Prismatic Omen. I personally have played the B version and tbh I think the deck is pretty good. I was always a fan of old school rug, but with BTL, it's a pretty decent deck. I feel last weekend on mtgo I kinda got unlucky with constantly drawing my one ofs I'd rather be using BTL to cast , but in paper I did pretty good
I think the frustration someone like cfusion has is justified, though, even with control being a tier 1 deck. Modern lacks a lot of agency in general, and especially looking at control decks where that is basically the whole point in playing blue based control. The feeling of not being in control of the outcome, where your decisions in game seem to hardly matter, still exists for a lot of people.
Yeah well its cold out here for control. Teferi and Search are good sure but when you see dredge getting creeping chill while control cannot get good counters, good draw or good boardwipes well it does make one salty. And note I said good I consider chill broken.
I even take a good cheap creature at this point like Containment Priest.
Teferi and Search are really, really good. They are the reasons why UW miracles became a top tier deck and continues to be a major player in modern despite losing some shares. Opt also needs to be added to the list of good things, no matter how basic it is. It enables the control player to keep up mana in the early turns and use it to draw cards if the opponent doesn't have a play. While definitely on the bottom of the list, Hieroglyphic Illumination's flexibility with cycling as instant speed draw also matters.
I'm not sure what better board wipes control could possibly get when there's access to the original board wipe in Wrath of God, plus Supreme Verdict, Settle the Wreckage, and Terminus.
The problem with blue based control is not the cards available. UWx actually has access to a lot of really strong plays. The problem is that reactive decks have to build based on what sort of meta they are trying to beat. Modern has the largest number of options. Control, and arguably midrange, will never be the best deck unless the meta changes to a point where the viable decks shrink from a dozen (plus another dozen fringe options) to like three or four. I for one don't want to see so many people's options invalidated for the purpose of putting a specific deck near the top (even though miracles and the rock are perfectly usable options, simply not top tier).
Na, UW needs better card draw like Brainstorm or Portent to become truly dominate. The reason for this is because in most games they straight up just need to miracle Terminus or they lose. Creature based decks have become basically Legacy creature decks, Vial or Cavern or bust. These decks are playing 2 three drop creatures at instant speed with counterspells attached to them on the same turn, that's why Terminus needs to be Miracled, same as Legacy.
Preordain, most likely will only help unfair decks, it's not good enough for UW to play because it's a Sorcery.
UW would most likely play Ponder, but there is a giant fear about Ponder amongst Modern players for some reason. Ponder is a huge step up from all the other cantrips, and almost every blue deck would run it.
Brainstorm is something we can all agree we don't need to have in Modern. Just look to Legacy for reference.
Portent could be a cool inclusion in Modern mostly buffing UW strictly, but I would be fine with that. Seems like a cool card and I'm a huge advocate for cantrips, which some people are against, but who knows.
Here's the cons: cantrips crate very consistent gamestates to the point of the game becoming "samey." Having too many good cantrips can create a state we have in Legacy where not only is Blue warped around these cards (mandatory 4x of Brainstorm and Ponder), but it also can warp the entire metagame around these cards/color. However I'd argue Legacy is far from "samey" and that if you want to look for an example of samey gameplay, Standard is prime example, and Legacy is far from it. Contrips create insane amount of decisions just with one single card.
I'd rather we have powerful control decks in Modern than other linear decks, and this is coming form a combo deck player. If we do look to Legacy, UW control and Grixis control are amongst the most powerful decks, alongside other fair decks, mostly being Terbo Xerox, and because these fair decks are so powerful, it is hard for decks that run broken turn 2 kills to run rampant. (This does not imply we need a control-combo police deck like Splinter Twin however)
Decision making becomes more ingrained in the gameplay, and overall agency is increased because of it.
I'd only run Sultai if we had fetch lands tbh. Green doesn't really have anything to add compared to other colors. Red is the best due to Nicol Bolas and some other cards usually assigned to sideboard. Assassin's Trophy is much more of a sideboard card because we have answers to most things in UB or UBR. The only problem is enchantments.
Bascically how I see it. URWJeskai: best control deck for creature matchups UBRGrixis: Good spread vs the field, can struggle with R aggro decks even despite Moment of Craving. Better than Jeskai in the control matchups UBDimir: Good overall spread, similar to Grixis, except has disadvantage vs Grixis in that matchup. UBWEsper: best in control matchups due to Teferi and Chromium, the Mutable, both of which are pretty much game over once resolved.
If no one in play test saw Dredge coming then they need to be fired quite frankly. Faithless looting alone has spent the whole year propping up one deck that abuses the grave and discard after another
You're talking about the same people that made Eldrazi Temple when Eye of Ugin was already in the format, on top of printing cards like Thought-Knot Seer at the same time.
I actually think no cards will be banned. Only unbans will happen next announcement. I really don't think the data shows anything worth banning.
(Edit: Someone could prove me wrong. The most likely candidate would be Ancient Stirrings, but I'm against this notion. There's been data in the past showing the success of decks using the card, but I will bring up the classic argument that the card supports different decks/archetypes and it's hard convince me to ban a card due to this fact. According to mtggoldfish, which I know isn't 100% accurate, it is only the 12th most played card. Another problem is how KCI doesn't show up as much online due to a lot of different issues, but I think that only strengthens my point on hw there really isn't convincing data that supports the ban. At the end of the day, it's still just a different Commune with Nature :P)
If I had to predict something being banned, I'd say probably something from Dredge, even though I don't think Creeping Chill's intention is a good argument for it. The dust has settled and Dredge is a good deck, but not worth banning
I personally would love to see Pod unbanned since I think its one of the coolest cards in magic from a design point. But the point I wanted to make is that I really think GSZ should be in consideration before Pod.
As stated many times Pod ever comes up, Pod was one of the best decks in Modern when Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were legal, and no cards from pod decks were ever banned outside Pod itself
I feel like modern is so busted at this time (KCI and Dredge and Phoenix and Storm and Hollow One) that stuff like SFM, Pod, Punishing Fire, and GSZ WOULD BE FINE. In theory, they would increase diversity, and modern is supposed to be very powerful anyway.
I'd probably like to see pod or twin unbanned tbh. But twin might just be me. I don't think either would be that busted right now
I might have to pick up another EE if I can find another original for cheap (the one I have is original so I want them to match)
I've always thought Pod is actually more powerful than GSZ. I dont really think GSZ is a build around card that some people think it is
Agreed, Preordain looks pretty stupid being on the ban list right now
I agree. The game is basically all about knowledge of the format. Even when playing a linear deck, you need to know the format. The only thing is, I think that because of the vast amount of decisions in Legacy, impactful or not, the feeling is better, whether is it exists objectively or not. Cheese exists so much more in Modern, imo, than any other format because of how good cheese cards can be. Just play 1 league on mtgo and its literally filled with "cute" cheesy cards all the time
My opinion is that if it wasn't for the RL, more people would play Legacy.
Legacy is extremely punishing when it comes to in game decisions, but Modern is super punishing for things like deck choice and mulligan decisions, which is kinda feels bad.
One dude at my LGS said something like, if you had the ability to look at each player's top 10 cards, you can almost always predict who is going to win. I don't really think you can do that in Legacy. (Same could probably be said about Standard too)
It basically comes down to accessibility. New cards are easier to obtain, and people who play standard already have the cards to play with an eternal format. Its a whole snowball effect. More people with new cards want a format to play with, so they go to Modern. That means more tournaments are Modern, which in turn brings more people to the format.
I'm not trying to bash Modern by any means, I just think if we look at it through a complete competitive lense with no outside factors like card/tourney accessibility, I just personally think Legacy might be more popular.
I'd say its better vs other combo decks than RG Shift. The reason is Remand, Bolt, and Cryptic to buy you time. You also have the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo to slow them down. With buying time with remand, you can also use your sideboard cards like Slaughter Games. The major problem with RG Titanshift is that its just slower than decks like Storm and KCI with minimal card draw so you basically just pray you hit a sideboard card like Relic or Damping Sphere or you lose. On top of that, BTL is basically a toolbox style deck with spells, so even if you aren't at 7 lands, you can use BTL to cast whatever you need for the moment.
Few problems with the deck includes similar weaknesses against aggro decks, but not as bad as RG Titanshift. The mana base is so hard, and you really need to meticulously plan out which lands you are going to use. Having Cryptic Command, Damnation, and Anger of the Gods in the same deck is not easy to use, but the idea is to really cast those cards using BTL rather than having them in your hand, which is why I said I think i kinda got unlucky since I kept drawing my single Damnation.
Another problem is that thier seondary gameplan just isnt that great. Platinum Emperion isn't always the best secondary gameplan, and fighting through a Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction on your Valakut/ Scapeshift is a lot harder. One thing people really don't understand about the RG Titanshift version is that it can have a decent game vs Blood Moon and doesn't rely on Valakut as much as one might first think.
I actually didn't play vs other Control decks, namly UW, but I imagine it's not that great. RG version traditionally is good vs them, and Platinum Emperion just loses to Path, so you basically have to win a counter war, which is probably not happening. I think the idea behind why it was good in the past was because you would have a lot more lands than your control opponent. However, with the format being much faster than it used to be, the deck isn't geared towards beating other control decks, imo, and RG version is just probably better in that regard. I think the MU used to be amazing back before Feld of Ruin but im not sure nowadays
Lastly, if felt a lot worse vs discard decks like Jund. Discard is usually not too bad in RG Titanshift because the whole deck is super redundant and most of the time your top decks are better than your Jund opponent. But with the BTL version it isn't the case, and your Remands kind of look silly vs Thoughtseize and IoK. I plan on playing it more for sure, and its super fun, I suggest you try it out. I was on the Black version, but I might buy the rest for the white version. Prismatic Omen can be really good especially since having your lands become Lightning Bolts in a control deck seems pretty sweet.
Na, UW needs better card draw like Brainstorm or Portent to become truly dominate. The reason for this is because in most games they straight up just need to miracle Terminus or they lose. Creature based decks have become basically Legacy creature decks, Vial or Cavern or bust. These decks are playing 2 three drop creatures at instant speed with counterspells attached to them on the same turn, that's why Terminus needs to be Miracled, same as Legacy.
Preordain, most likely will only help unfair decks, it's not good enough for UW to play because it's a Sorcery.
UW would most likely play Ponder, but there is a giant fear about Ponder amongst Modern players for some reason. Ponder is a huge step up from all the other cantrips, and almost every blue deck would run it.
Brainstorm is something we can all agree we don't need to have in Modern. Just look to Legacy for reference.
Portent could be a cool inclusion in Modern mostly buffing UW strictly, but I would be fine with that. Seems like a cool card and I'm a huge advocate for cantrips, which some people are against, but who knows.
Here's the cons: cantrips crate very consistent gamestates to the point of the game becoming "samey." Having too many good cantrips can create a state we have in Legacy where not only is Blue warped around these cards (mandatory 4x of Brainstorm and Ponder), but it also can warp the entire metagame around these cards/color. However I'd argue Legacy is far from "samey" and that if you want to look for an example of samey gameplay, Standard is prime example, and Legacy is far from it. Contrips create insane amount of decisions just with one single card.
I'd rather we have powerful control decks in Modern than other linear decks, and this is coming form a combo deck player. If we do look to Legacy, UW control and Grixis control are amongst the most powerful decks, alongside other fair decks, mostly being Terbo Xerox, and because these fair decks are so powerful, it is hard for decks that run broken turn 2 kills to run rampant. (This does not imply we need a control-combo police deck like Splinter Twin however)
Decision making becomes more ingrained in the gameplay, and overall agency is increased because of it.
I'm sticking to my guns and saying that Grixis is by far the best control archetype at least for the UB base. UB alone isn't good enough, and I even said weeks ago that Doom Whisperer is so overrated and Disinformation Campaign is not that great. Bolas is the real deal. It's really Nicol Bolas, the Ravager paired with The Eldest Reborn and Dream Eater.
The best card in the format is Teferi, Hero of Dominaria on a power level standpoint, but I think the best card, and most overlooked card for that matter, is Thought Erasure. It's the reason I picked Grixis in the first place. As for Esper and the W splash, Teferi isn't worth giving up the powerful synergy of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager, The Eldest Reborn and Dream Eater + the Thought Erasure & Duress (from the sideboard) package.
Bascically how I see it.
URWJeskai: best control deck for creature matchups
UBRGrixis: Good spread vs the field, can struggle with R aggro decks even despite Moment of Craving. Better than Jeskai in the control matchups
UBDimir: Good overall spread, similar to Grixis, except has disadvantage vs Grixis in that matchup.
UBWEsper: best in control matchups due to Teferi and Chromium, the Mutable, both of which are pretty much game over once resolved.
You're talking about the same people that made Eldrazi Temple when Eye of Ugin was already in the format, on top of printing cards like Thought-Knot Seer at the same time.
(Edit: Someone could prove me wrong. The most likely candidate would be Ancient Stirrings, but I'm against this notion. There's been data in the past showing the success of decks using the card, but I will bring up the classic argument that the card supports different decks/archetypes and it's hard convince me to ban a card due to this fact. According to mtggoldfish, which I know isn't 100% accurate, it is only the 12th most played card. Another problem is how KCI doesn't show up as much online due to a lot of different issues, but I think that only strengthens my point on hw there really isn't convincing data that supports the ban. At the end of the day, it's still just a different Commune with Nature :P)
If I had to predict something being banned, I'd say probably something from Dredge, even though I don't think Creeping Chill's intention is a good argument for it. The dust has settled and Dredge is a good deck, but not worth banning
I've always thought Pod is actually more powerful than GSZ. I dont really think GSZ is a build around card that some people think it is